A world without relgion

[elliebean]

In short; the world would be just as bad a place as it is already, due to the likes of people like you. Got it.

[McQ]

You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

First warning to Ivan. Your post is way outside of forum rules and etiquette.

[Edward the Theist]

Ironically, it's because I believe in evolution that I value what makes us different from other intelligent animals.  I do think that becoming a world full of only fact-based believers would be a dreary, un-human world indeed.  Not because of a lack of god per se, but because of the lack of the imaginative quality that sparks such uniquely human expressions and interactions in the world.

Well put.

[Edward the Theist]

Thank you, McQ.

You're actually the first moderator in any atheist group I've ever been in that has done that. In every group I have been in to date, the moderators have consistently allowed the atheists to break whatever rules they wanted to when it came to poor etiquette or insults directed toward me. On the other hand, they consistently warned me for things that were well inside the rules. I always found that to be very cowardly on their part, sad and pathetic, the last actions of a defeated mod and group.

You, on the other hand, have not acted that way. I am surprised and impressed.

Again, thanks.

Edward

[Gawen]

People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

I hope not but I fear you may be correct.

I don't think that mankind is hardwired to "worship". I think rather that we are wired to be willingly self-deceived. Will have that capacity to willingly believe all sorts of idiocy whether we worship it or not.

Now, if y'all excuse me, I the current additions of The Enquirer and The Daily Star (starbabe, ya know) to read...*chucklin*

[Jac3510]

People will always find something to worship, I believe that sociologically mankind is hardwired for this behavior.

I hope not but I fear you may be correct.

I don't think that mankind is hardwired to "worship". I think rather that we are wired to be willingly self-deceived. Will have that capacity to willingly believe all sorts of idiocy whether we worship it or not.

No, I think the hard-wiring for worship makes more sense from an evolutionary perspective. If we are hard-wired to deceive ourselves, wouldn't that make survival less likely? On the other hand, religion brings people together for good or evil, and that has evolutionary advantages. All this might explain the falling back on God and prayer by even some of the people here in moments of crisis.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Edward:

Utilitarianism doesn't imply amorality; it implies a rational morality, based on human experience, rather than an irrational morality, based upon "divine" fiat (as translated by intercessionaries).  A social contract, as any reading of Locke et al will show, is vital for utilitarianism, in order to avoid evil (in the social sense).

Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Kashmir ... all religious conflicts which produced (and still produce) atrocities.  Is that your idea of divine morality?

Already pointed out has been religious justification for slavery and racism, as well.

History shows that religion has a piss-poor record when it comes to inculcating morality.  It more often serves as a fig-leaf to cover crimes which still occur to this day.  Can you justify those evils without resorting to moral relativity?

[Gawen]

No, I think the hard-wiring for worship makes more sense from an evolutionary perspective. If we are hard-wired to deceive ourselves, wouldn't that make survival less likely? On the other hand, religion brings people together for good or evil, and that has evolutionary advantages. All this might explain the falling back on God and prayer by even some of the people here in moments of crisis.

It's the self deception that makes the worship possible. It works the same way as some ancient person incites a belief that if we band together, we could kill or drive off the guys across the river so we have more food.
Hunting is safer in numbers. But more numbers uses more food and we have enough people, so let's get rid of the guys that live across the river, even though they haven't done anything to us.

[Ivan Tudor C McHock]

You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

First warning to Ivan. Your post is way outside of forum rules and etiquette.

McQ - presumably your objection to my post is based on my use of a certain combination of four letters. Let me quote from one of our forum's more erudite members:

".....if you insist that I indulge your superstitious fear of certain arrangements of letters, then I must insist that you refrain from ever posting the numbers 312, 6 and 4,734. These numbers are clearly vulgar, offensive and have no place in civilised society."

You might also want to reflect on the absurdity of an atheist, on an atheism forum, parading his superstitious fear of certain combinations of letters.

You might also want to reflect on the facts of this situation:

1: edward suggested that having no imaginary friend will lead to one finding beauty in weapons designed to slaughter millions.

2: I treated his input witht the contempt it deserved.

Now, one of these comments is clearly more uncivilised and lacking in etiquette than the other. Can you work out which one that is?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

[Ivan Tudor C McHock]

Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

As an atheist, I don't do imprecations. Strange that you would use that word.

However, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to insult a person's intelligence based on their faith. It may be unkind, but it is certainly not unfair nor unreasonable.

If I sincerely loved and believed in the Tooth Fairy and I publicly professed my love and belief, I would likely have my intellect ridiculed. The things that theists believe are far, far more ridiculous than belief in the Tooth Fairy and thus believers richly deserve to have their intellects ridiculed.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

As an atheist, I don't do imprecations. Strange that you would use that word.

However, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to insult a person's intelligence based on their faith. It may be unkind, but it is certainly not unfair nor unreasonable.

If I sincerely loved and believed in the Tooth Fairy and I publicly professed my love and belief, I would likely have my intellect ridiculed. The things that theists believe are far, far more ridiculous than belief in the Tooth Fairy and thus believers richly deserve to have their intellects ridiculed.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've met many very intelligent people who are religious.  You know, the compartmentalization thing.  The possession of faith and the possession of intellect are two different things.

[Ivan Tudor C McHock]

Actually, I'm pretty sure his objection is to your imprecation, and not how you worded it.  Insulting a man's intelligence because of his faith is like like putting down his truck because his lawnmower won't start: a category error.

As an atheist, I don't do imprecations. Strange that you would use that word.

However, I think it is entirely fair and reasonable to insult a person's intelligence based on their faith. It may be unkind, but it is certainly not unfair nor unreasonable.

If I sincerely loved and believed in the Tooth Fairy and I publicly professed my love and belief, I would likely have my intellect ridiculed. The things that theists believe are far, far more ridiculous than belief in the Tooth Fairy and thus believers richly deserve to have their intellects ridiculed.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  I've met many very intelligent people who are religious.  You know, the compartmentalization thing.  The possession of faith and the possession of intellect are two different things.

There are two main reasons, which I mentioned in my 'origin of the religion' threads, why ostensibly intelligent people fall victim to the delusion of religion. Those reasons are greed/egomania and cowardice.

The greedy are seduced by the promise of everything forever after death, the egomaniacal are seduced by the idea that the founder of the universe, who looks just like them, has singled them out for special attention, and the cowardly simply don't have the balls to look reality square in the eye. The fact that the intellect of such people can be subjugated by the base, obvious lures offered by religion shows us clearly that their intellect is not what it may appear to be.

Any way you cut it, if you believe in invisible friends with magic wands who like to zap up universes in their spare time, you. are. an. idiot.

[Tank]

You're an hysterical, jabbering fuckwit, edward.

Granted, it's not an expansive reply, but it's as much as your contributions merit.

First warning to Ivan. Your post is way outside of forum rules and etiquette.

McQ - presumably your objection to my post is based on my use of a certain combination of four letters. Let me quote from one of our forum's more erudite members:

".....if you insist that I indulge your superstitious fear of certain arrangements of letters, then I must insist that you refrain from ever posting the numbers 312, 6 and 4,734. These numbers are clearly vulgar, offensive and have no place in civilised society."

You might also want to reflect on the absurdity of an atheist, on an atheism forum, parading his superstitious fear of certain combinations of letters.

You might also want to reflect on the facts of this situation:

1: edward suggested that having no imaginary friend will lead to one finding beauty in weapons designed to slaughter millions.

2: I treated his input witht the contempt it deserved.

Now, one of these comments is clearly more uncivilised and lacking in etiquette than the other. Can you work out which one that is?

A random combination is numbers is not the same thing as a recognised sequence of characters. Language, spoken or written, is symbolic. When you use language you parse meaning via symbolism, simply attempting to weasel out of what you wrote by claiming the characters are somehow random and therefore jufhdn is just trying to get away from the personal insult you aimed directly at Edward.

His ideas may well be fuckwittery writ large but they are his ideas.

[Kylyssa]

Let's see: I am dirt. I work for dirt that happens to have more money than me and can hire people with guns to make me work for them. Why not? I'm only a dirt clod anyway. Hell, even my consciousness is an illusion, but so is theirs. I can breed and give them more slaves, or I can strap a bomb on, grab some guns and ammo and go take out whatever I can. They're only going to work me to death anyway, and then I won't exist anymore. There is no God. I have no reason for being born. I am tortured by my consciousness. And I serve dirt clods who are no better than me.

It's pretty clear that you are obsessed with the idea that religion makes some people better than others.  Reread what you wrote here, you are basically raving that belief in the equality of human beings will bring about Armageddon.

How is this much different from "everyone is a piece of shit because two people 6,000 years ago disobeyed God so everyone deserves suffering?"  How is it worse than people doing those things for religious reasons as they do now?  When they do them for religious reasons they can add on "I'm dirt but God is my master so I'm better dirt than everyone else so I have the right to do anything I want to other people" and "I'll go to Heaven when I blow up these subhuman nonbelievers."  Hmmmm, absolute extinction or a promise of paradise - which sounds more tempting to you?  

I'm surprised you've never heard of (or don't believe in) empathy.  Just randomly running around killing one another wouldn't serve a purpose from an evolutionary standpoint, but helping each other would.

You are basically stating that you are a sociopath who would kill, rape, steal, and keep slaves if your faith were shaken.  I'm not being flippant when I say this but I suggest counseling, even talking to your pastor or priest.