Just a little advice for new Atheists

[Martin TK]

Warning this post is long, and I ask that you read it or not, but know it comes from my heart.

I thought I would begin this thread because I see a trend on here of newer atheists seeking advice and sharing their stories of de-conversion from this very ugly cult of religion.  I wanted to begin by giving some of my own account of what I went through and what helped me to keep my mind sound and my understanding of what was going on, clear.  I'm afraid I am not much help to those who find themselves at odds with their families and friends, as I haven't dealt with those issues well, but internally, I think I've done a pretty good job.

First of all, ALL RELIGIONS are CULTS and to understand that parts of their "belief systems" are based on how to take a group of individuals and convert them into a single-minded organism.  Many religions have had thousands of years in which to perfect these mind control tactics, so if you are having trouble with some of the issues in breaking free, just understanding that part of the whole "religion" thing is to control the masses, and they are good at it, might help.

Christianity, of which I am most familiar, will be the religion that I am talking about here.  Christianity's grip is based on three main tenents: Punishment, Fear, and Isolation.  Let's look at each one separately in reverse order.  ISOLATION:  I have heard many people say that when they "come out" as Atheists, one of the first things that happens is the Christian community will isolate them, usually by simply not talking to them for a period of time.  This serves to soften you up, and while it may not be something that is being done openly, trust me it has a LONG history of working for the church.  FEAR:  This could also be called GUILT, as I'm sure anyone who has left the church knows, often the next phase is when those "friends" start coming back to say things like, "aren't you afraid of not knowing god?" and "don't you miss all of us at church, we miss you?" and I'm sure there are a LOT of other examples. Finally, PUNISHMENT:  'You are going to rot in hell!"  "I can't be your friend, if you are an atheist."  "I don't want you to corrupt my children."  The list goes on and on, as do the arguments from your Christian "friends."

Now, you notice that I don't include anything on the part about being nice, which you would expect from "Loving Christians" and I have to be honest that some will actually continue to see you as a decent human being, and some will genuinely worry about you, but most of the worry will be about their fear of your being isolated from the Church and your eventual punishment in hell.  

For some of you, I think you have to recognize that you are losing something that may have become very familiar to you, like an old friend.  Allowing yourself to grieve and even to go through the five steps of grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance, is not only healthy but cathartic or cleansing as well.  In short, understanding that you have lost something in the process of giving up your faith and that you now have questions and doubts, is normal.

Finally, what do you do now?  Well, for me it was pretty simple - education.  I sought to read every book written by any atheist author, I read the bible again, only this time with a skeptic's eye, and I sought like-minded people.  I was pretty lucky to have met Richard Dawkins and Dan Barker, who helped me a great deal by just KNOWING them, and then I read their writings, I joined the Freedom from Religion Foundation and signed up for every freethinkers website and forum I could find.

Then, I did something remarkable, for me, I went back and began a dialog with theists, with Christians, mainly those I knew would not condemn me for my  non-beliefs, and sought to understand a little better what their positions were.  This helped me because with my new-found education about the bible, and the Christian religion, and the psychology of faith, I was able to get beyond any anger I felt for Christians and began to pity them and their controlled lives.  I learned as much as I could on topics like evolution and the cosmos, I read all the arguments for and against religion and built up some good defenses for those inevitable attacks from "well meaning" Christians.

All the while, I fought my own demons, the nagging doubts, the Pascal's wager questions, and the persuasiveness of the Christians I knew.  I did a lot of deep thinking, and I allowed myself the freedom NOT to believe for the first time, I forgave MYSELF for ever having fallen victim and my parents for having forced me to join the cult of Christianity, and I stopped worrying about heaven or hell, and finally understood that I could be a moral man, not because I had to be, but because I WANTED to be.  And, at last I was free, and thanks to some on here, and other sites, and men like Dawkins, Barker, and others, for giving me knowledge and courage, and finally PEACE.

[Tank]

I'll take the other side of the coin from Martin, that of an innate atheist.

I have never believed in God. I was brought up by a protestant (Church of England) Mum and an atheist Dad so I had a pretty balanced view in terms of options to follow. While taken to church I personally felt it was meaningless garbage but at the time did not know why it was. My Mum and Dad were good people, Dad had a bit of a temper and my Mum wasn't the 'sharpest tool in the box' mainly because her education had been interrupted by WWII, my Dad was a very bright scholarship student. I was born in Dec '59 when my Mum was 34 and my Dad was 43, I have one sister 15 years older than I, I have few living memories of her, none are good. I would spend hours talking to my Mum and Dad about everything you can imagine.

So I have never believed in God. Does that worry me? No, it most definitely does not, in fact I count myself very lucky never to have been a believer as that means I have never had a block on learning. I have always been allowed to make up my own mind and that is a complete anathema to a religion. I have never had 'god' looking over my shoulder or the threat of temporal or eternal punishment if I don't conform to a particular doctrine. Religions are, to my mind, simply institutionalised superstitions. So why do so many people believe in the existance of a god?

God was the creation of human frailty and fear, in particular the fear of the perceived but not understood and the unconscious ramblings of the mind. At the dawn of human awareness came the moment of knowledge without understanding. Humans have evolved into cause and effect machines, we see cause we infer effect, we see effect and we infer cause. It's the way we evolved as the ability to second guess our prey and/or predators is a huge evolutionary advantage. But with this ability came the cost of cognitive dissonance when a cause is seen or an effect is observed we are evolved to balance that equation. And every night unconsciousness came, not in a comfortable bed in a secure home, but surrounded by predators out in the open. And there were dreams and nightmares, the unexplained visions, an affect of what? What caused the visions seen at night that were good or bad, heaven or hell? So our ancestors had knowledge, they could see the Sun rise, they had effect but no cause, they did not understand why the Sun rose, a psychologically intolerable situation. They knew their dreams, visions of beauty and fear, an effect with no cause. So they balanced the equation with superstition and called it God. God is the filler in the cracks of our evolved mind.

It's not wrong to believe what you are told by a parent when you are a child. In fact it is critical that one does do what ones parents tell us without question. Consider the instruction from a parent 'Don't eat that!'. It's a simple assertion with no information to back it up. Take two hypothetical children, one obeys the other does not. Which is the most likely to survive if the child is about to eat a pretty poison ivy berry? The child who obeys unthinkingly is the one that survives, the other may die. Trust in authority is an innate part of human behaviour. In the case of the berry there would be a very tangible outcome. But what if one is told, by the very same parent, 'If you don't prey five times a day to Allah you'll go to hell for eternity!' will you believe that parent? Damn right you will believe! This is the root of religious power, the blind observance of authority.

It's not wrong to feel disorientation when one's world view is uprooted and shown to be wrong, it is entirely natural. There is a lot to come to terms with when ones frame of reference to how the world works is taken away. Questions that one previously had rock solid answers to come back and hit one like a freight train. What happens after I die? Why should I be good? How did the universe start? Why am I here, what is my purpose? Why do I exist at all? All these fundamental question that had previously had good solid answers are now back open or are possibly being considered for the very first time. It's not wrong to be worried by these things. Time and discussion ease these fears but it takes time.

For me the quintessential element of an atheist world view is that I am responsible for all that I do, say or type. This is very difficult because I'm not perfect, I make mistakes. One has to be careful not to be too hard on one's self and accept that one will make mistakes, sometimes with the best possible intentions. One also has to realise that nobody is perfect and neither is the world. When things go wrong more often than not there is no intent. Cancer is not a curse in the biblical sense, it's not a punishment, it's just the malfunction of one of the trillions of cells that comprise a human body. The world is mostly ambivalent to everything everybody does. Humans, as individuals are neither special nor important to the world as a whole. That is a very difficult idea for us as people to comprehend. Yes we are important to ourselves, yes we are important to our friends, family and loved ones, but in the grand scheme of things we are just simply lucky to have existed at all. Don't worry about the world, it's not worrying about you, you are not responsible for anything other than what you do yourself, so worry about what you can do yourself and just do the best you can for those close to you.

And in the words on the cover of a famous book 'Don't Panic'.

[NothingSacred]

I've been sort of coping with the idea that being like jesus was what made you a good person and I began to seek other reasons for charity . Today I went to donate blood and it felt good to try and help someone just because they needed it. Ive come to the conclusion that there is no big man in the sky looking out for us so we need to look out for one another. After having a difficult week im finishing it on a high note  

[reed9]

I've been sort of coping with the idea that being like jesus was what made you a good person and I began to seek other reasons for charity . Today I went to donate blood and it felt good to try and help someone just because they needed it. Ive come to the conclusion that there is no big man in the sky looking out for us so we need to look out for one another. After having a difficult week im finishing it on a high note  

There's a lot of good writing out there on secular morality and ethics.  Are you familiar with the Council for Secular Humanism's website?

Or for eminently readable discussions, Massimo Pigliucci's blog is great.

[NothingSacred]

I've been sort of coping with the idea that being like jesus was what made you a good person and I began to seek other reasons for charity . Today I went to donate blood and it felt good to try and help someone just because they needed it. Ive come to the conclusion that there is no big man in the sky looking out for us so we need to look out for one another. After having a difficult week im finishing it on a high note  

There's a lot of good writing out there on secular morality and ethics.  Are you familiar with the Council for Secular Humanism's website?

Or for eminently readable discussions, Massimo Pigliucci's blog is great.

Ya, when I lived in las vegas ( even while I was a christian) I attended a few halverson (a secular humanist organization) events. I really like penn & teller so that was the draw.

[Obii]

I'm so glad I found this website, and this thread is certainly helping me answer a lot of questions. There is, in my case, still a lot of fear and guilt that Christianity has left behind. Pascal's wager, why I should exist at all, questions of the universe, my own mortality, how to raise my children (when I have them), what my true motivations are for acting "good", it's all there. Sometimes, I wish so desperately that I could go back to being Christian, but in the end, I would only be fooling myself, and I absolutely will NOT fool myself to find happiness. I do consider myself lucky, however, because even though Christianity was forced upon me, my parents, family, and friends are all very accepting people who still treat me exactly the same. That's tough to come by from what I hear. The links are great, I'm looking forward to learning more about these secular groups and joining them in the future. Thanks a lot for this and other threads giving advice on an atheist lifestyle. I'm looking for absolute, true peace in my life, and even though I'm as far away from that as possible right now, these threads are a fantastic starting point.

[Martin TK]

I'm so glad I found this website, and this thread is certainly helping me answer a lot of questions. There is, in my case, still a lot of fear and guilt that Christianity has left behind. Pascal's wager, why I should exist at all, questions of the universe, my own mortality, how to raise my children (when I have them), what my true motivations are for acting "good", it's all there. Sometimes, I wish so desperately that I could go back to being Christian, but in the end, I would only be fooling myself, and I absolutely will NOT fool myself to find happiness. I do consider myself lucky, however, because even though Christianity was forced upon me, my parents, family, and friends are all very accepting people who still treat me exactly the same. That's tough to come by from what I hear. The links are great, I'm looking forward to learning more about these secular groups and joining them in the future. Thanks a lot for this and other threads giving advice on an atheist lifestyle. I'm looking for absolute, true peace in my life, and even though I'm as far away from that as possible right now, these threads are a fantastic starting point.

Happy you have found the truth, for what it's worth all you worries and fears will fade away as you learn more and get more informed about what life is about for an atheist.  We are all very moral individuals, in fact I believe there is a much stronger argument FOR moral atheists than for moral theists, we are not guided by a 2000 year old document that is clearly flawed.  Clean the clutter of religion out of your head, and refill it with the peace of knowing you can live a happy, productive, and fulfilled life without religon.  You can enjoy everything more, without the prejudices that religion places on you, the air is fresher, the water sweeter, love has deeper meaning, and you now have a new purpose, TO LIVE... not to wait to die so you can be rewarded in some afterlife of eternal Hell in Heaven.

I wish you all the luck, and all the peace you will find.  As one mother of an atheist who deconverted said, "Now, I can live my life without hating someone."

[Obii]

Happy you have found the truth, for what it's worth all you worries and fears will fade away as you learn more and get more informed about what life is about for an atheist.  We are all very moral individuals, in fact I believe there is a much stronger argument FOR moral atheists than for moral theists, we are not guided by a 2000 year old document that is clearly flawed.  Clean the clutter of religion out of your head, and refill it with the peace of knowing you can live a happy, productive, and fulfilled life without religon.  You can enjoy everything more, without the prejudices that religion places on you, the air is fresher, the water sweeter, love has deeper meaning, and you now have a new purpose, TO LIVE... not to wait to die so you can be rewarded in some afterlife of eternal Hell in Heaven.

I wish you all the luck, and all the peace you will find.  As one mother of an atheist who deconverted said, "Now, I can live my life without hating someone."

Exactly, exactly, and exactly. I agree with every word entirely, it's like you're reading my mind. It's hilarious the responses you get when you say that there's a better argument for moral atheists than moral theists. From blank stares to mass confusion, it's like I'm starting a rebellion or something. Thanks.

[KebertX]

First of all, ALL RELIGIONS are CULTS and to understand that parts of their "belief systems" are based on how to take a group of individuals and convert them into a single-minded organism. Many religions have had thousands of years in which to perfect these mind control tactics, so if you are having trouble with some of the issues in breaking free, just understanding that part of the whole "religion" thing is to control the masses, and they are good at it, might help.

The Buddhist part of me is offended by that.  I suppose you wouldn't think anything of it if I simply said that Eastern Religions are different.  They truly are.  Frankly, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the only religions that I consider guilty of Mind Control. (You could argue Hinduism is, but... I would strongly disagree).  Some religions are in fact better than others.  If I had to rank them by believability....

   0. Atheism
   1. Confucianism
   2. Daoism
   3. Buddhism
   4. Shinto
   5. Hinduism
   6. Islam
   7. Indigenous Spiritualities â†' (Native American, Aboriginal, African, and Rastafarian cultures are in this category)
   8. Sikhism
   9. Pagan/Neo Pagan
  10. Christianity
  11. Judaism
  12. Jainism
  13. Zoroastrianism
  14. Ancient Mythologies
  15. Any Cult
  16. Scientology
  17. Pastafarianism

Atheism is very appropriate to be thought of as Religion Zero, wouldn't you agree?  Now onto the actual theme of this thread...

I envy Tank for never having to believe in God.  While I did have to convert into atheism, I had it differently.  I had my entire soul invested in God.  Then I proved that Santa Clause didn't exist (I was 7.  I hid a camera.  I'm still very proud of myself for being so scientific at that age.)  And after that, I stopped being a full on Christian, and turned into a pro-Jesus Agnostic.

When I made my final conversion from God, I was only a pure atheist for a few days.  I was 14 then, and I was going through some hard times.  I didn't need to bother with Pascal's Wager, or ask myself any philosophical questions at that point.  I simply had to pray, and then realize that absolutely no one was listening.  I know what it's like to NEED God. He's never responded to my need. I think there's a simple reason for that.  God's either not there, or he doesn't give a fuck about me. Either way, I make do with reality.

I was just very depressed, and I finally knew for a fact that no God was looking out for me. But, for some reason, I refused give up on the concept of the Soul.  Nowadays I'm not sure about that anymore, but back then I was young, and it was still acceptable to draw conclusions by using my imagination.  So when I started learning about Buddhism, it made so much intuitive sense. Everything about Karma, and the nature of Suffering, and Detachment, and Meditation (it works, anyone who says different is lying) just did make sense to me. And it made me feel complete, and at peace, and best perk of all... NO GOD!

So I picked and chose which principles of Buddhism to keep, and which I didn't want to believe. I believe in a rough version of reincarnation: Energy of life being recycled and making new life, but not on a one to one scale like most Buddhists believe. "In my past life I was a fish, in my next life I might be a bird! If I follow the Eightfold Path, I might be a monk! Then I could attain Nirvana!"   *bullshit* I don't believe in Nirvana, or the whole reincarnation cycle.

People shouldn't live based on motivations for their next life, they should live with the motivation to live.  For me, when it comes to describing reality, science comes first, but I don't let Occam's Razor shave too much away .  It's just something to help determine whether or not an argument is logical. I don't mind taking something from nothing when it's something like Buddhism. It's not half bad, many would even describe it as good. A good moral life is... good.

I'm not good at articulating spiritual concepts.  I just thought I'd throw in my input. I don't suppose it's worth much, I don't feel I've really said anything about myself that you couldn't find by looking at the "Worldview" thing under my icon...


QOTD ~ "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."

[radicalaggrivation]

I am very happy that I converted over from being religious to being atheist. I grew up in the black community and black Americans are very superstitions and devout. The irony kills me today but when I was a kid, it was all very normal. I was raised a Muslim but surrounded by Christians. I constantly had to defend myself from their attacks and assertions that I was going to hell. My Islamic roots were mostly for show. Most of my life I believed in a heavenly being that cared about me. The older I grew the less I cared about being a part of organized religions. Because I was always under siege by Christians, I was able to understand their contradictions very early. My first unanswerable question to theists was, "If I have never heard of or been exposed to Christianity and I do not accept Jesus as my personal deity, will I go to Hell?" The answers were either "yes" or "uh what?"

I will admit that after I shed Islam, I really tried to "get" Christianity. I went to church, I listened, and I opened my mind to the ideas. Unfortunately, the skeptic in me was already taking over and I could not make sense of it. At first I thought it was me but I later realized that it was the religion that did not make sense. That was a wonderful revelation. I am still a fairly new atheist. I did not openly reject a personal God until late 2008. It was an amazing and eye opening experience. The rejection of a "mental North Korea", as Hitchens so deftly puts it, created a whole new world for me to marvel at. It has only been a few years but every book, article, and thread I read that challenges religion deepens my disbelief. When you are religious you fool yourself into a sense of certainty. You question this certainty often because it is not true. For those of use who rejected that certainty, we are truly the ones who are "blessed" (an emotion I still feel but do not attribute to God).

When you are an atheist no one can dictate to you what you should be. You are allowed to be yourself. More than that, you are forced to be moral or cope with your own immorality. There is no deity to blame your weaknesses on. It is absolution and reality unfiltered. It  is understanding just how special we are in the universe to have the opportunity to live conscious, dignified lives. Atheism is the height of human clarity and the spoils of unbridled curiosity. For those of you who were never believers, that is good on you. For those coming out of the darkness of religious oppression, breath deep on the fresh air. No one but those who had to fight for their mental freedom can truly understand just how much courage it takes to go against everything you learned in order to seek truth. I applaud you and hope that you can feel proud of yourselves because it is truly an accomplishment.

[Martin TK]

I am very happy that I converted over from being religious to being atheist. I grew up in the black community and black Americans are very superstitions and devout. The irony kills me today but when I was a kid, it was all very normal. I was raised a Muslim but surrounded by Christians. I constantly had to defend myself from their attacks and assertions that I was going to hell. My Islamic roots were mostly for show. Most of my life I believed in a heavenly being that cared about me. The older I grew the less I cared about being a part of organized religions. Because I was always under siege by Christians, I was able to understand their contradictions very early. My first unanswerable question to theists was, "If I have never heard of or been exposed to Christianity and I do not accept Jesus as my personal deity, will I go to Hell?" The answers were either "yes" or "uh what?"

I will admit that after I shed Islam, I really tried to "get" Christianity. I went to church, I listened, and I opened my mind to the ideas. Unfortunately, the skeptic in me was already taking over and I could not make sense of it. At first I thought it was me but I later realized that it was the religion that did not make sense. That was a wonderful revelation. I am still a fairly new atheist. I did not openly reject a personal God until late 2008. It was an amazing and eye opening experience. The rejection of a "mental North Korea", as Hitchens so deftly puts it, created a whole new world for me to marvel at. It has only been a few years but every book, article, and thread I read that challenges religion deepens my disbelief. When you are religious you fool yourself into a sense of certainty. You question this certainty often because it is not true. For those of use who rejected that certainty, we are truly the ones who are "blessed" (an emotion I still feel but do not attribute to God).

When you are an atheist no one can dictate to you what you should be. You are allowed to be yourself. More than that, you are forced to be moral or cope with your own immorality. There is no deity to blame your weaknesses on. It is absolution and reality unfiltered. It  is understanding just how special we are in the universe to have the opportunity to live conscious, dignified lives. Atheism is the height of human clarity and the spoils of unbridled curiosity. For those of you who were never believers, that is good on you. For those coming out of the darkness of religious oppression, breath deep on the fresh air. No one but those who had to fight for their mental freedom can truly understand just how much courage it takes to go against everything you learned in order to seek truth. I applaud you and hope that you can feel proud of yourselves because it is truly an accomplishment.

I did my undergraduate work at an historically black college in South Carolina, then spent a number of years teaching there and working on the staff.  I lived most of my life in South Carolina where the population is about 70 percent African-American in the area I grew up in, so I am very aware of the spirituality of African-Americans.  I don't have as much issues with them, however, as I do in the Southern Baptist in the South, at least the African-Americans I knew and love accepted me for the person I am, not for the person they think I should be.

[Martin TK]

First of all, ALL RELIGIONS are CULTS and to understand that parts of their "belief systems" are based on how to take a group of individuals and convert them into a single-minded organism. Many religions have had thousands of years in which to perfect these mind control tactics, so if you are having trouble with some of the issues in breaking free, just understanding that part of the whole "religion" thing is to control the masses, and they are good at it, might help.

The Buddhist part of me is offended by that.  I suppose you wouldn't think anything of it if I simply said that Eastern Religions are different.  They truly are.  Frankly, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the only religions that I consider guilty of Mind Control. (You could argue Hinduism is, but... I would strongly disagree).  Some religions are in fact better than others.  If I had to rank them by believability....

   0. Atheism
   1. Confucianism
   2. Daoism
   3. Buddhism
   4. Shinto
   5. Hinduism
   6. Islam
   7. Indigenous Spiritualities â†' (Native American, Aboriginal, African, and Rastafarian cultures are in this category)
   8. Sikhism
   9. Pagan/Neo Pagan
  10. Christianity
  11. Judaism
  12. Jainism
  13. Zoroastrianism
  14. Ancient Mythologies
  15. Any Cult
  16. Scientology
  17. Pastafarianism

Atheism is very appropriate to be thought of as Religion Zero, wouldn't you agree?  Now onto the actual theme of this thread...

I envy Tank for never having to believe in God.  While I did have to convert into atheism, I had it differently.  I had my entire soul invested in God.  Then I proved that Santa Clause didn't exist (I was 7.  I hid a camera.  I'm still very proud of myself for being so scientific at that age.)  And after that, I stopped being a full on Christian, and turned into a pro-Jesus Agnostic.

When I made my final conversion from God, I was only a pure atheist for a few days.  I was 14 then, and I was going through some hard times.  I didn't need to bother with Pascal's Wager, or ask myself any philosophical questions at that point.  I simply had to pray, and then realize that absolutely no one was listening.  I know what it's like to NEED God. He's never responded to my need. I think there's a simple reason for that.  God's either not there, or he doesn't give a fuck about me. Either way, I make do with reality.

I was just very depressed, and I finally knew for a fact that no God was looking out for me. But, for some reason, I refused give up on the concept of the Soul.  Nowadays I'm not sure about that anymore, but back then I was young, and it was still acceptable to draw conclusions by using my imagination.  So when I started learning about Buddhism, it made so much intuitive sense. Everything about Karma, and the nature of Suffering, and Detachment, and Meditation (it works, anyone who says different is lying) just did make sense to me. And it made me feel complete, and at peace, and best perk of all... NO GOD!

So I picked and chose which principles of Buddhism to keep, and which I didn't want to believe. I believe in a rough version of reincarnation: Energy of life being recycled and making new life, but not on a one to one scale like most Buddhists believe. "In my past life I was a fish, in my next life I might be a bird! If I follow the Eightfold Path, I might be a monk! Then I could attain Nirvana!"   *bullshit* I don't believe in Nirvana, or the whole reincarnation cycle.

People shouldn't live based on motivations for their next life, they should live with the motivation to live.  For me, when it comes to describing reality, science comes first, but I don't let Occam's Razor shave too much away .  It's just something to help determine whether or not an argument is logical. I don't mind taking something from nothing when it's something like Buddhism. It's not half bad, many would even describe it as good. A good moral life is... good.

I'm not good at articulating spiritual concepts.  I just thought I'd throw in my input. I don't suppose it's worth much, I don't feel I've really said anything about myself that you couldn't find by looking at the "Worldview" thing under my icon...


QOTD ~ "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows."

There was a time when I would have given you that Eastern Religions are different than the more Western ones, until I did some actual research into the history of them.  Most Eastern religions do teach more on love and peace, but at the core they still seek to establish a "one" mentality and to control the thoughts and actions of the membership.  During WWII, Budhist Monks in Japan were among those who were recruiting kamaazi pilots, promising them eternal bliss.  All religions are oportunistic and at their core they are self-serving.  Some of the richest religious leaders in the world are Eastern Religious Leaders,  Even the Dahli Llama, who is charismatic, has a claim to the thrown of Tibet, should they ever get their freedom from China.

[KebertX]

There was a time when I would have given you that Eastern Religions are different than the more Western ones, until I did some actual research into the history of them.  Most Eastern religions do teach more on love and peace, but at the core they still seek to establish a "one" mentality and to control the thoughts and actions of the membership.  During WWII, Budhist Monks in Japan were among those who were recruiting kamaazi pilots, promising them eternal bliss.  All religions are oportunistic and at their core they are self-serving.  Some of the richest religious leaders in the world are Eastern Religious Leaders,  Even the Dahli Llama, who is charismatic, has a claim to the thrown of Tibet, should they ever get their freedom from China.

There's no opportunism, it's not about money or controlling people. It's an altruistic philosophy rooted in the Truth that suffering is a product of attachment.  The worst of the history in the Eastern Religions is probably the Caste system in Hinduism. Frankly, I see that as a plus simply because the religious leaders realized it was wrong and stopped. The last time Christianity did that was, what, the Witch Trials?

Buddhism isn't about controlling people. It doesn't even have a set of commandments, In terms of telling people what to do, there's just the eightfold path (8 suggestions).  It basically says, these rules are here, follow them if you think Nirvana sounds like a good idea!  It's the most genuinely peaceful and liberal religion I've ever known.  Buddhists have no crusades, no genocides, and no bullshit myths that you HAVE to believe if you want to call yourself a Buddhist.

Kamikaze Pilots? That's not a very Buddhist thing to do. There must have been a deception surrounding this, because there's no rationale for a real Buddhist to do or condone killing people like that.  All I can say to address Buddhists who did that is: You're doin' it wrong  

Who cares if the Dalai Lama might have been rich (China's Communist takeover demanded the dismantling of the Religious state of Tibet, and they're almost definitely not going to give it back.) and it's wring to suggest he just wants to profiteer off of people's beliefs (Call me brainwashed, but he doesn't. That's absolutely untrue).  The Dalai Lama spreads messages of Peace and Love, and Religious Harmony wherever he goes. He's a good man, and I have great respect for him.  Who cares if there are rich religious leaders. That's completely off the point of whether or not it's a religion of Merit.  And as far as I'm concerned, it is.

I consider one of the minority of people who actually do CHOOSE their religion. Most people just stick with the religion their parents made them belong to, and most who don't just end up rejecting religion altogether and become atheists.  Buddhism is immensely different, and I would definitely say better, than any of the western religions.  That's all I can say.  None of them could be called logical, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief on just this one thing, because it's sensible and nice to think about.

[Martin TK]

There was a time when I would have given you that Eastern Religions are different than the more Western ones, until I did some actual research into the history of them.  Most Eastern religions do teach more on love and peace, but at the core they still seek to establish a "one" mentality and to control the thoughts and actions of the membership.  During WWII, Budhist Monks in Japan were among those who were recruiting kamaazi pilots, promising them eternal bliss.  All religions are oportunistic and at their core they are self-serving.  Some of the richest religious leaders in the world are Eastern Religious Leaders,  Even the Dahli Llama, who is charismatic, has a claim to the thrown of Tibet, should they ever get their freedom from China.

There's no opportunism, it's not about money or controlling people. It's an altruistic philosophy rooted in the Truth that suffering is a product of attachment.  The worst of the history in the Eastern Religions is probably the Caste system in Hinduism. Frankly, I see that as a plus simply because the religious leaders realized it was wrong and stopped. The last time Christianity did that was, what, the Witch Trials?

Buddhism isn't about controlling people. It doesn't even have a set of commandments, In terms of telling people what to do, there's just the eightfold path (8 suggestions).  It basically says, these rules are here, follow them if you think Nirvana sounds like a good idea!  It's the most genuinely peaceful and liberal religion I've ever known.  Buddhists have no crusades, no genocides, and no bullshit myths that you HAVE to believe if you want to call yourself a Buddhist.

Kamikaze Pilots? That's not a very Buddhist thing to do. There must have been a deception surrounding this, because there's no rationale for a real Buddhist to do or condone killing people like that.  All I can say to address Buddhists who did that is: You're doin' it wrong  

Who cares if the Dalai Lama might have been rich (China's Communist takeover demanded the dismantling of the Religious state of Tibet, and they're almost definitely not going to give it back.) and it's wring to suggest he just wants to profiteer off of people's beliefs (Call me brainwashed, but he doesn't. That's absolutely untrue).  The Dalai Lama spreads messages of Peace and Love, and Religious Harmony wherever he goes. He's a good man, and I have great respect for him.  Who cares if there are rich religious leaders. That's completely off the point of whether or not it's a religion of Merit.  And as far as I'm concerned, it is.

Yeah, if you donate enough to the "cause" the Dalai Lama will name you a holy man... LOL  I do think that any religion that has any sense or doctrine of servitude or giving up one's riches, but the leader is rich, I have issues with.

I consider one of the minority of people who actually do CHOOSE their religion. Most people just stick with the religion their parents made them belong to, and most who don't just end up rejecting religion altogether and become atheists.  Buddhism is immensely different, and I would definitely say better, than any of the western religions.  That's all I can say.  None of them could be called logical, but I'm willing to suspend disbelief on just this one thing, because it's sensible and nice to think about.

I never knock an individual's belief system, so I am not attacking you personally in any way.  I like your posts, I enjoy your input and your insight.  If it works for you as an individual, then I'm all for it, but as an entire system, I don't find any religions worthy of any praise at all, but I am a die-hard atheist of the worst kind.. LOL... Peace, and keep on believing... and don't think ill of me for my own thoughts.

[KebertX]

Yeah, if you donate enough to the "cause" the Dalai Lama will name you a holy man... LOL  I do think that any religion that has any sense or doctrine of servitude or giving up one's riches, but the leader is rich, I have issues with.

I see your point, but that's not what it's about at all.  Desire for things like money is, from his perspective, just another cause of suffering.

I never knock an individual's belief system, so I am not attacking you personally in any way.  I like your posts, I enjoy your input and your insight.  If it works for you as an individual, then I'm all for it, but as an entire system, I don't find any religions worthy of any praise at all, but I am a die-hard atheist of the worst kind.. LOL... Peace, and keep on believing... and don't think ill of me for my own thoughts.

Of course not! I wouldn't think ill of anyone for their thoughts (Unless they're Neo-Nazis, Pedophiles, or Juggalos) I try to practice universal compassion, even if people say things that I find offensive, I think it's wrong to get hung up on them.  

We should not lose compassion whatever the circumstances. One Tibetan Monk, whom I knew very well in Namgyal Monastery in the Potala in Lhasa, explained this important task.  He spent more than seventeen years in Chinese labor camps and during those years he said that on a few occasions he faced danger. I asked him what kind of danger: I thought it must be a danger to his life. But he answered, danger of losing compassion towards the Chinese.

I'm not attached to my beliefs in a way that makes me get offended when they're challenged (Ironically, I learned that attitude from Buddhism). If that guy still felt compassion for Chinese officers in a labor camp, I'm not going to think ill of you for rejecting illogical concepts.

All religions are illogical, because (if nothing else) they involve a violation of Occam's Razor.  If someone really wants to believe something religious, they shouldn't try to pass it off as logic.  Faith is the willingness to accept the belief in something more.  It's not grounded in logic.  Not believing them is nothing more than a sign of a purely logical mind, which is probably a virtue.