A question to think about.

[AverageFreeThinker]

My friend and I were having a debate about whether god is not real or not.He is a average free thinker and I am also a average free thinker.While we were debating,he said something that really hit me.

 He said "John,if you do believe in god you go to heaven if you don't,you have the possibility to go to hell,so why take the chance?"He then proceeded to tell me that religion is really just a gamble and that choosing one religion is that you have one chance to go to heaven so why become an atheist and take no chances at all?

I was really thinking about the question he asked me,so I wanna know what you guys think about this question.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Pascal's Wager fails on two levels:  First, why should a loving God seek recourse into threats in order to accrue followers?  Why should a church purporting to spread this god's word do the same?

Second, this argument works against Christianity, too:  What happens if the Quran is right?  All the Christians bleating about this Wager are toast.

[pinkocommie]

Haha, well, I think faking belief is a far cry from 'taking a chance' first of all.  To me, Pascal's Wager is about the worst argument ever in favor of religion.  It's a coward's choice, first of all.  Like saying - hey, even if you don't think there's a god, shouldn't you pretend you do just in case so maybe he'll be so shallow and callous, he won't notice you were faking worship of him and let you into heaven anyway?  Yeah, no.  Somehow I imagine the kind of god that would be OK with people faking belief 'just in case' is not a god worth worship, even on the extremely slim chance that it DOES exist.

People who pop up with this argument tend to assume that people are fighting against something to be an atheist.  For me, that's completely untrue.  It's not like I've felt god's presence in the past or feel it now and I'm just choosing to ignore it because atheism is more fun or somehow 'safer' something - I have never in my life experienced anything that would lead me to believe that god exists.  Pair that with the fact that god is not at all a logical concept and you get me as an atheist.  It's not like I could just choose to believe if I wanted to, just like people who are totally down with a certain god-myth can't usually just stop believing just because someone else says 'hey, why not just not believe?  I mean, you might as well, right?'

So let me ask - do you believe in god?  Do you think Pascal's Wager is compelling?  Why/why not?

[Davin]

Most of the major religions mention bad things will happen to you if you believe in/worship the wrong god, so if you're worshiping a god for Pascal's wager and it ends up being the wrong god, then your very screwed, but I haven't seen any religious text mention anything bad will happen for not worshiping a "false" god.

So the safer bet is to not believe in any of them until you know which one it is or even if there is one in the first place.

[Whitney]

Your friend just paraphrased Pascal's Wager which is basically just saying you should pretend to believe just in case; you are taking a bet that God accepts fake belief on top of hoping that the God you randomly select is real.

As a side note; people who belong to religions don't fall under "freethinker"  It's not meant to mean someone who simply thinks whatever they want, it is intended to describe a group of people who value reasoned independent philosophical thought as a tool for understanding the world around us.

[Martin TK]

Your friend just paraphrased Pascal's Wager which is basically just saying you should pretend to believe just in case; you are taking a bet that God accepts fake belief on top of hoping that the God you randomly select is real.

As a side note; people who belong to religions don't fall under "freethinker"  It's not meant to mean someone who simply thinks whatever they want, it is intended to describe a group of people who value reasoned independent philosophical thought as a tool for understanding the world around us.

This is a good point, Whitney, but I sometimes wonder what term could be applied to some Christians, especially those who, at the very least, do some research and give some thought to the mythical side of religion, and chose the more practical side.  I have a very good friend who claims to be a Christians, but who also has a PhD in physics and math, understands the whole cosmological arguments and agrees with them, but still holds onto his "faith" that god somehow exists, perhaps even inspite of, all his knowledge.  He is indeed an interesting man.  Just curious about your thoughts.

[Whitney]

This is a good point, Whitney, but I sometimes wonder what term could be applied to some Christians, especially those who, at the very least, do some research and give some thought to the mythical side of religion, and chose the more practical side.  I have a very good friend who claims to be a Christians, but who also has a PhD in physics and math, understands the whole cosmological arguments and agrees with them, but still holds onto his "faith" that god somehow exists, perhaps even inspite of, all his knowledge.  He is indeed an interesting man.  Just curious about your thoughts.

If he can use reason to arrive at the conclusion that Jesus and the God of the Bible are real then perhaps the term could apply.  Basically, just because someone is smart and has thought about their faith critically doesn't make them a freethinker if they are still following a prescribed religion (if they make up their own religion based on their philosophical studies then perhaps freethinker might make more sense as a label).

I accept deists and other non-religious theists as under the umbrella of free-thought though.

[mthans75]

I have a friend and he and his wife are Pentecostal. They think if you do not go to church, then you will not receive salvation. I said to him, so your religion is all about what is in it for you, not because you love God or actually worship him. I think many people attend church for fear they will go to hell. This is no way for a deity to handle a religion. It looks like all of these fear based conditions are purely man made.

[KebertX]

Pascal's Wager? It's really impossible to take that wager isn't it?

If you realize that the only reason to believe in God is the slim possibility that you'll go to hell, then you CAN'T make yourself truly believe in God, can you? The only way to believe in God is to actually have some reason in your mind to THINK it's actually real. If you have this, Pascal's Wager is useless to you because you have some other reason to have faith in God.

If you realize there's really no good reason to think god should exist, You've already outsmarted theism, so the only way to take Pascals Wager is to pretend you believe in God, when you really don't have any real thoughts that constitute faith.  Wouldn't God KNOW that you're just faking belief for an Insurance policy?  Also, you can use Pascals wager on any religion.

Shouldn't you convert to Hinduism, just in case you end up coming back as a tapeworm?
Shouldn't you convert to Islam, just in case Allah sends your infidel ass to hell?
Shouldn't you convert to Paganism, just in case the goddess is displeased and decides to curse you?
Shouldn't you convert to Scientology, just in case you're Thetans destroy you from the inside out?
Shouldn't you convert to Pastafarianism, just in case The Flying Spaghetti Monster puts you in Hell with stale beer and STDs?
Shouldn't you join that cult, just in case you miss the opportunity to have your soul swept away by Haley's Comet?

I say that you need to take the chance that all these superstitions are complete nonsense, and become an atheist, just in case you waste your life worshiping something that isn't there. If you're right, you get to live your life as a free thinker. If you're wrong, there's no telling what will happen to you, because any one of these religions could be right and there is no way to tell which one.

[KebertX]

If he can use reason to arrive at the conclusion that Jesus and the God of the Bible are real then perhaps the term could apply.  Basically, just because someone is smart and has thought about their faith critically doesn't make them a freethinker if they are still following a prescribed religion (if they make up their own religion based on their philosophical studies then perhaps freethinker might make more sense as a label).

I accept deists and other non-religious theists as under the umbrella of free-thought though.

Of course you can be a free thinker and still believe in God. I'm an atheist, but I'm insulted by that on behalf of my Christian friends. I know exceedingly intelligent people who believe in god. They're free thinkers, they just didn't come to the same logical conclusion as you because their experiences have led them to believe something different.

You're not a free thinker if you believe nonsensical myths that have been disproven (Creation, Flat Earth, Young Earth, Scientific Conspiracies...etc.) But God is a much more complicated issue than illogical science denial. You can be a free thinker who believes in god.  You don't need to be under the God Delusion to come to the God Conclusion.

[Sophus]

Second, this argument works against Christianity, too:  What happens if the Quran is right?  All the Christians bleating about this Wager are toast.

As much as I hate to play Devil's Advocate against your argument, if the Qu'ran were right then Christians (and Jews) would go to Heaven. Muslims think they all worship the same God, simply that they're more enlightened. Surprisingly, the theology is one of the more tolerant and peaceful of any religion. Or at least... it's suppose to be. It's the people like you me that will burn in hell.  

But your point is still valid in that there are many religions and not just one to pick from. As Dawkins put it, "What if you're wrong about Thor or Zeus? What if you're wrong about the Great JuJu at the bottom of the sea?"

And to add to KebertX's attack on poor Pascal's Wager I'll say that wouldn't your belief need to be geniune? Would Yahweh really like the fact that you feigned to believe in him just to save your own ass? If it's really a gamble I would be all in: I'd be an Omnitheist.

[Tanker]

Your friends argument is the same as say "well I believe in Santa and you should too before it's to late (Dec 25) I would hate to be enjoying all the presents I get while you sit there with coal. Why take the chance of coal when all you have to do is believe to get presents?" Can you force yourself to believe in Santa? Try it right now, really believe in Santa. Write a letter. Set out milk and cookies. Sing carols. Do you believe? No? well I guess it wasn't something you can choose.

Now switch Santa with Jesus, presents with Heaven, coal with Hell, letter writing with prayer, and carol singing with reading the Bible. Do you believe in Jesus? No? well I guess that too isn't a choice.

Pascal's Wager is one of the Worst arguements for anything EVER.

[Thumpalumpacus]

As much as I hate to play Devil's Advocate against your argument, if the Qu'ran were right then Christians (and Jews) would go to Heaven. Muslims think they all worship the same God, simply that they're more enlightened. Surprisingly, the theology is one of the more tolerant and peaceful of any religion. Or at least... it's suppose to be. It's the people like you me that will burn in hell.

Muslims regard Christians and Jews both as unwashed, because they have not received the Word of God's Last Prophet.  Christianity regards Jesus as, essentially, God's avatar.  Muslims regard Jesus as only one in a long line of prophets.  There is a difference.

[Tank]

I have a friend and he and his wife are Pentecostal. They think if you do not go to church, then you will not receive salvation. I said to him, so your religion is all about what is in it for you, not because you love God or actually worship him. I think many people attend church for fear they will go to hell. This is no way for a deity to handle a religion. It looks like all of these fear based conditions are purely man made.

I wonder how much church attendance is simply habit, done because its always been done. Do people really think that they may go to hell and as such go to church? I'm not convinced, mainly because I very rarely see logic applied by anyone in any situation. If a church going individual really was that logical and capable of critical thinking surly they'd work out the inconsistencies of dogma and superstition?

Welcome aboard!

[Ellainix]

My friend and I were having a debate about whether god is not real or not.He is a average free thinker and I am also a average free thinker.While we were debating,he said something that really hit me.

 He said "John,if you do believe in god you go to heaven if you don't,you have the possibility to go to hell,so why take the chance?"He then proceeded to tell me that religion is really just a gamble and that choosing one religion is that you have one chance to go to heaven so why become an atheist and take no chances at all?

I was really thinking about the question he asked me,so I wanna know what you guys think about this question.

There could be a God that hates the idea of spending eternity with believers.  I know I do.