Alcoholics Anonymous

[Quinn Mander]

Firstly, let me say, although arguably not a religion per se (while, it is true, accused of being a 'cult'), if a discussion of the philosophy of A.A. and recovery would belong more appropriately in the Religion section, I apologize and will move it.  Actually, I'm not sure I have the power to do that, so perhaps I will need to REQUEST that it be moved.  Either way...moderators, let me know.

I bring this topic up in earnest.  This is not in any way an attempt to preach or to espouse anything, I would never presume to do so.  I am actually looking for some help.  I have been struggling, since landing in recovery several years ago, with the A.A. ethos, and am looking to find a way to critically examine the soundness of the ideas behind recovery, as defined by A.A., find my place in sobriety, and define a philosophy of life that works for me - without wanting to reject ideas out of defensiveness that might in fact be helpful.  This is difficult for me in many ways, because critical discussion of these ideas is hardly encouraged in A.A. (which is part of what I find infuriating about the group - and part of what I THINK makes it dangerously close to a religion), and often I find that others either have little knowledge of the group and its principles, or little interest thereof (and why should anyone outside the group care?).  Of course, there are many other non-members who are familiar with A.A., so I don't mean to suggest, particularly in this day and age, that anyone here specifically is ignorant on the topic.  There is also the danger of "outing yourself" as a former addict, and of the stigmas risked thereby.

It is not that I wish to abandon my sobriety - I've found through my own self-induced brand of horror that it's really best if I, personally, stay off the sauce from now on (I have absolutely NO opinions about anyone else).  I'm solidly convinced of that.  It is just that I have to find a way to reconcile things like my atheism and a set of principles that depend, at least in the minds of its creators, entirely upon the concept of a "Higher Power."  They say it can be anything you want: god, gods, the sky, the earth, the tree outside, even the group itself - anything to which you can sincerely "surrender" your "self-centered fear" and your "self-will run riot."  If it is the group itself, for example, you 'surrender' to them by taking their advice (which usually means working the "steps").  But this breadth of acceptance doesn't turn out to mean much, the more you inspect the implications of that "Higher Power."  The other members are generally very relaxed and open minded about spirituality, no one asks me about my "HP" (or lack thereof), no one cares, but the actual "steps" of A.A. seem to depend upon a concept of an H.P. that is a benevolent, all-powerful sentient being that is specifically concerned with you and your life.  Which, obviously, is bunk as far as I'm concerned, or I wouldn't be here.

The idea is that a significant change of personality is required for a person to recover from addiction, that such a thing is, by collective experience (if not by definition) impossible to achieve by oneself, or through "probably any human power," and consequently that god must bring about such a change.  Also bunk, as far is I'm concerned.  I've found for myself thus far that all that is attributed to the intervention of this HP could reasonably be explained by the effect of ones own efforts, by having a supportive group of people around you, and by having finally had enough of your former destructive behavioral patters.  There is, however, a great deal made of "working the steps," nearly all of which involve this HP in some way.  Without doing this, so goes the claim, one seriously risks relapse and death (A.A.'s brand of the fear of hellfire).

I'm not going to presume any level of knowledge, interest, or lack thereof - if you want to know what I'm talking about, what the specific principles are in relation to what I am asking, let me know and I will clarify.

I'm not entirely sure what I'm seeking with this post - perhaps just wondering if anyone here has any thoughts on the ideas of A.A., recovery in general, or if there's anyone who's dealt with this themselves (and is willing to discuss it, of course).  And perhaps just looking for some general thoughts that might help me settle my mind on this stuff.  It might be that this is futile - that it would be like asking how I might remain an atheist and continue going to church, in which case the obvious answer is "walk out the door and go your own way."  If that's it, feel free to say so.  

Hopefully this doesn't piss anyone off...

[Will]

I'm addicted to food.

I had some friends over tonight for barbecue chicken, potato salad and Invictus. For dessert I served homemade apple pie. I had a serving of chicken, a serving of salad and no pie. My friends all had one slice of pie per person after finishing dinner, without even thinking about it. Had I taken a piece, I would have gone back for a second and possibly a third. Then, after everyone left, I would have finished off the rest. It's not that I'm hungry or I have a particular affinity for apple pie, it's that I don't understand how people have one piece of pie. Or one cookie. Or ten potato chips. Or just three barbecued ribs. It doesn't seem wrong, either, it seems as normal as breathing. Why would someone just take one breath?

By the time I figured out I was addicted to food, I was in a bad way. I think I hit 250 (70 lbs. over my natural weight). I was eating absolutely horrible garbage all the time without stopping. I couldn't run for more than maybe 45 seconds without getting so winded I had to stop. Don't ask me how, but somehow I put 2 and 2 together and realized my eating habits were imbalanced. I was talking to a friend about it, an alcoholic, and he mentioned that he had a similar relationship with alcohol. He and I started talking about A.A. I had to stop him because I was getting pissed off. Recognizing a greater power that can give strength? What the hell is this? Only a supernatural fairy tail can cure addiction? This is obviously bullshit. God is a placebo in A.A. It's a sugar pill. It could be anything that someone can believe in. There's a problem, though: recognizing an outside force upon which to base your recovery is fucking insane. I'm not licensed to practice psychology (yet, I may give it a shot in a few years), but the entire idea is absurd.

Real recovery is something that comes from the addicted. Discipline is the fundamental cornerstone, not Muhammed or the Easter Bunny. You can supplement discipline with other things, support from others, hearing stories of others recovering, marking the amount of time since your last slip up, but ultimately it's just discipline. Discipline is why I didn't have any pie tonight. Discipline is why I'm at around 175 and can run a mile flat out. Do I slip up from time to time? Shit yes. In February I ate a can of Pringles without even realizing it. That's a good 1000 calories, and basically no nutricional value whatsoever. Had the can been twice as deep, I probably would have eaten 2,000 calories in one sitting. i kicked myself for doing it, but got right back to discipline.

Quinn, you are the only one that ultimately will determine if you drink or not. It's not going to be easy, but you can be dry if you can muster your determination.

[Quinn Mander]

I'm addicted to food.

Will: I wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond at such length, and for graciously discussing your own struggles.  I much appreciate it.  Congratulations on your successes, they are inspiring.  My wife and I are addicted to food.  It's one we haven't conquered yet.  I read a study recently that claimed each of us has a limited reserve of 'willpower' and that using this willpower fighting one battle necessarily saps your abililty to fight other battles.  I sincerely hope this isn't true.  But it fits with what I've seen in recovery rooms.  Very often alcoholics sprout other addictions when they put down the booze.

Had I taken a piece, I would have gone back for a second and possibly a third. Then, after everyone left, I would have finished off the rest. It's not that I'm hungry or I have a particular affinity for apple pie, it's that I don't understand how people have one piece of pie. Or one cookie. Or ten potato chips. Or just three barbecued ribs. It doesn't seem wrong, either, it seems as normal as breathing. Why would someone just take one breath?

Yep.  That's me.  Why would you stop halfway through the tub of Ben & Jerry's, when there's a whole other "halfway" to go?

Recognizing a greater power that can give strength? What the hell is this? Only a supernatural fairy tail can cure addiction? This is obviously bullshit.

Exactly.  Oh...the the fun I've had trying this on others in the rooms...I'm often accused of being 'willful' and 'terminally unique.'  This concept directly derives from the basic premise of A.A. that, for a true addict, 'willpower' is useless against the booze.  Admittedly, many in A.A., including its founders, tried numerous times to stop under their own steam, and failed.  And so therefore, they concluded when they finally succeeded: 'god did it.'  The problem with this is obvious.  We don't know enough about addiction, or the brain of addicts, to know why someone stops when they stop, or why some do and others don't.  Why can't they simply have taken however long they took to have 'had enough' or to get a clear and honest picture of themselves?

God is a placebo in A.A. It's a sugar pill. It could be anything that someone can believe in.

This explains much of its success, I feel.  That, combined with that fact that the support of a group of others similarly suffering is often quite helpful, and that is a central feature of the 'program.'  Tellingly, when the founders did stop, it was because one of them decided to talk to the other about their mutual problem.  Again...human power...not divine.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Will]

Will: I wanted to thank you for taking the time to respond at such length, and for graciously discussing your own struggles.  I much appreciate it.  Congratulations on your successes, they are inspiring.  My wife and I are addicted to food.  It's one we haven't conquered yet.

One of the nice things about being a recovering food addict is I've got personally-tested advice ready to go at a moment's notice. Food, unlike say illegal drugs or alcohol, is necessary for survival, so you can't just remove all of it from your environment if and when you go cold turkey.

What I did initially was go on a mad hunt for information on nutrient density. I discovered things like kale and bok choy, which are like super foods. After putting together lists, I started looking for recipes that only included healthy ingredients. No sugar, no salt, no extra fats, no processed ingredients. I have about 30 breakfasts, 20 lunches, and 60 dinners that are all incredibly healthy and come in the right proportions for my needs. As time goes on, I add more and more.

I have Pages files (the Apple version of Excel) in which I organize my meals. I generally plan about two weeks worth of meals at a time, with four repeating breakfasts, three repeating lunches, and five repeating dinners, so things still feel fresh. Twice a month, I pick four new breakfasts, three lunches, and five dinners. I never get sick of anything because it changes too often. I know it seems like micromanagingâ€"because it isâ€"but deciding what to eat when you're not anywhere near food and can dispassionately decide what's best works for me. Last night I had grilled chicken, low-fat potato salad, and iced tea. This morning I had a smoothie, and for lunch I had a salad with sardines (a food I've learned to love). Tonight I'll be eating vegan Chinese salad.

The discipline thing comes in when shopping. Be sure you're full when you shop for food so your hunger can't dictate choices. Because you've got your meals planned out, you can shop for precisely what you're going to eat without exception. No desserts, no snacks, no frozen or processed food (other than frozen fruits and vegetables, of course). A nice side effect is you never, ever waste food. I spend less now despite eating quite well than I did when I ate garbage.

That, combined with that fact that the support of a group of others similarly suffering is often quite helpful, and that is a central feature of the 'program.'  Tellingly, when the founders did stop, it was because one of them decided to talk to the other about their mutual problem.  Again...human power...not divine.

This is exactly why we need a secular alcoholic organization to take the place of AA. Community and self-empowerment are the keys to fighting back against addiction. Religious mumbo jumbo only gets in the way.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond.

Not at all. Thank you for sharing.

[Tinyal]

I'm on a fast lunch break, but wanted to mention I'll have more time tonight to reply to the OP's excellent topic.  Just FYI, I myself have had a similar struggle, with 21 years in AA (roughly 10 years as a 'believer', 2 years a weak 'agnostic', and the last 9 or so as a full blown nontheist/atheist.).  In my view, A.A. as written and practiced (for the most part  - there are rare exceptions) is a cult with some dangerous side effects whose goal is to move people towards a christian-centered belief system,  while getting them sober.  The two goals are (perhaps hopelessly) intermixed.
I should have more time tonight or tomorrow to chat a little more on my experiences with A.A. over the years (I still attend roughly 3x per month, but with a completely different viewpoint and goal then I did years ago).
AMW

[Shine]

I'm glad to see this topic.  I've had problems with alcohol since my early teens but have never sought help specifically because every program that I have seen seems to be completely rooted in the twelve steps.  Unfortunately, #2 is a deal-breaker for me.  Actually, everything past #1 is a deal-breaker.

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:

   1. We admitted we were powerless over alcoholâ€"that our lives had become unmanageable.
   2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
   3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
   4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
   5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
   6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
   7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
   8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
   9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

from Wikipedia

I think that insinuating that some supernatural force ultimately has control is incredibly detrimental to fostering self-reliance.  For me to stay sober, I need to strengthen my confidence that I am fully capable of resisting the temptation for something that I cannot control.  To insert God as the source of control only further renders me powerless; how is this supposed to help?  I agree that God in this entire program sounds like nothing more than a distracting sugar-pill; addicts are not actually confronting their issues with self-control or building self-reliance so much as they are transferring that obsessive tendency towards a supernatural power.

Do any secular addiction-recovery programs exist?

[Quinn Mander]

Do any secular addiction-recovery programs exist?

I'm glad people have responded to this, this is incredibly helpful for me.

Part of the reason I posted this was to generate discussion of alternatives about which I may be woefully ignorant.  Perhaps some of us can research them together.  

I only know of two secular organizations.  Sadly, I know little about them:

Rational Recovery (rational.org)
Secular Organizations for Sobriety (secularsobriety.org)

Again, I cannot speak to their effectiveness, I'm only beginning this research myself.

[pinkocommie]

Here is a handly list:

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/102062_finding-secular-alternatives-to-aa-and-12-step-for-atheists-agnostics-and-non-believers

There are some, but they're certainly not as prevalent as AA, unfortunately.

[Quinn Mander]

Food, unlike say illegal drugs or alcohol, is necessary for survival, so you can't just remove all of it from your environment if and when you go cold turkey.

My wife often makes this point.  How do you avoid "excess" of something, as opposed to abstaining from an object or substance.  It seems entirely outside the purview of traditional recovery.

I have Pages files (the Apple version of Excel) in which I organize my meals. I generally plan about two weeks worth of meals at a time, with four repeating breakfasts, three repeating lunches, and five repeating dinners, so things still feel fresh. Twice a month, I pick four new breakfasts, three lunches, and five dinners. I never get sick of anything because it changes too often. I know it seems like micromanagingâ€"because it isâ€"but deciding what to eat when you're not anywhere near food and can dispassionately decide what's best works for me. Last night I had grilled chicken, low-fat potato salad, and iced tea. This morning I had a smoothie, and for lunch I had a salad with sardines (a food I've learned to love). Tonight I'll be eating vegan Chinese salad.

The discipline thing comes in when shopping. Be sure you're full when you shop for food so your hunger can't dictate choices. Because you've got your meals planned out, you can shop for precisely what you're going to eat without exception. No desserts, no snacks, no frozen or processed food (other than frozen fruits and vegetables, of course). A nice side effect is you never, ever waste food. I spend less now despite eating quite well than I did when I ate garbage.

This is very helpful, thank you.  I actually got into this somewhat myself several years ago - when I began getting interested in body-building. I started researching the nutritional programs body-builders used to "cut."  Sounds very similar.  Fell off the exercise wagon some time ago.  Get back on in fits and starts, but somehow, now, I can't get myself completely back on track just yet.

[Shine]

I only know of two secular organizations.  Sadly, I know little about them:

Rational Recovery (rational.org)
Secular Organizations for Sobriety (secularsobriety.org)

Again, I cannot speak to their effectiveness, I'm only beginning this research myself.

Here is a handly list:

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/102062_finding-secular-alternatives-to-aa-and-12-step-for-atheists-agnostics-and-non-believers

There are some, but they're certainly not as prevalent as AA, unfortunately.

Thanks, Pinko and Quinn!  I'll have to check into some of those; it's nice to know that there is at least something out there that confronts addiction without slathering on the god-talk.

[Whitney]

I'm not able to offer my two cents on this topic with any real educated opinion...but, I have a friend who put together a piece on the Atheist Alcoholic:  http://www.atheistthinktank.net/atheist_alcoholic.html

[The Black Jester]

I'm not able to offer my two cents on this topic with any real educated opinion...but, I have a friend who put together a piece on the Atheist Alcoholic: http://www.atheistthinktank.net/atheist_alcoholic.html

This is a fantastic resource, thank you.  Your friend is quite brave.  Her interpretation of the 'steps' comes very close to my attempts to re-interpret them from a non-theistic, non-supernatural perspective that actually works for me.  I've been growing apart from my groups for some time now.  Difficult to do, in some ways - requires a lot of bravery.  Because they scare the shit out of you - they have their own version of the christian's hellfire - the threat of relapse.  They'll tell you everyone who leaves, or doesn't practice the program rigorously (as they define these things), eventually goes out.  So it's really, REALLY important to hear evidence from the world outside the 'rooms.'

Quinn