Question to Atheists: Why do you help people in need?

[Tank]

I think dogsmycopilot makes a valid point, in that if all fora were the same it would be very boring. I don't enjoy confrontation for confrontations sake all the time. I'll have a go at idiotic ideas with the best of them but flame wars are not constructive, ever. Nobody ever wins a flame war they are just pissing contests of who can display the worst manners. Yet I don't find this place 'dry' at all, oh no, it makes me think about what other people say and how I should respond. This is much more a game of chess than a bear pit. Different people, different places, different times of life and different world views sharing a place where ideas, not insults, can be traded in an amicable environment. I like this place for those reasons. Dry? No. Intellectually challenging and stimulating? Oh yes!  

[Log10]

You claim that we have no morals only because we do not believe in the Bible?
Christians should be the last to talk about morals, it is you after all who brainwash young people
to become soldiers and tell them that God is on their side and wants them to kill the enemy.
Without that we wouldn't even need most of the medical ships.
Oh and I think you forgot to add the "after school molesting in church program for little boys"  

You ask why we don't assemble under one flag?
Because that sounds like religion. It is clear you were pounded this stuff into your head for a long time;
that everyone must belong to a solid group of people and that if they do not belong to yours - they're the enemy.
This becomes even more clear reading the verse you posted.

"(...) there is none that does good."
Yesterday I fed doves. Guess that makes your God a liar.

The difference between you guys and us free thinkers is that you get told who your enemies and friends are,
we however question things, and decide for our self.

[janicekwon]

Wow.  I didn't even read this, the title was so incredibly insulting.

How is that insulting at all? The title doesn’t say, ‘Imagine No Atheists’ or 'The Atheist Delusion' . All I want is a public debate. I want you atheists to defend some of your unethical and behavior.

The title sounds a bit insulting because it sounds as though you are assuming that atheists are not interested in helping people in need.  You could have worded things a bit better

[Thumpalumpacus]

I help people in need.  I just don't need to put a flag atop my aid.  

After all, conformity isn't to my taste.

[freeservant]

As a Christian I find this offensive but never the less a problem if Atheism is going to dominate and become a kind of godless utopia.

Let me express some things that I see that may be true regardless of if a bottom up process or from the top down.

We ALL have a moral compass and at least seem to think in objective moral terms IE:

Do you have your Neighbors for dinner or do you have them over for dinner?

Is incest now ok if you use the appropriate birth control?

Just some examples of how we tend to act as if there is an objective moral absolute.

Some naturalists are into game theory to try and explain the bottom up process.

I have a close Family member who is a staunch conservative and atheist that would help anyone in need given an opportunity.  He has sure helped me.

Now remember that the first statement was in a polemical style that does illustrate that if atheism is the truth awakening of all us deluded people then religious institutions like Hospitals and Charities like the salvation army are going to have to naturally give way to the coming tide of secular dominance.  I see a lot of links posted that seem to point to that very thing.  Yet given the earths population and the statistically small number of out of the closet atheists there is more work to be done.  I also would look to nations like China that has a government that requires atheism to be a party member as a glimpse of this future and yes I don't discount countries like Switzerland who where culturally Christian at one time.

I do believe that God has never the less built in our moral compass as evidence against an amoral and uncaring universe.  I don't see anybody other then the sociopath as being able to exhibit the more amoral nature of most of the animal kingdom.  Yet I have to remember that I am branded as deluded so my observation that God created us all as moral agents with a moral compass does tend to be my teleological thinking as I observe human nature.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2010-05-29

[Whitney]

freeservent...care to go through your own post and critique where you said things that could be taken as offensive by atheists?  I'll give you one example (though there are others)...since when were all hospitals religious institutions?

[freeservant]

freeservent...care to go through your own post and critique where you said things that could be taken as offensive by atheists?  I'll give you one example (though there are others)...since when were all hospitals religious institutions?

I grant that not all Hospitals are religiously funded.  I was in Parkland Hospital for my accident and I have no doubt that it is secular.  Yet it had a Chaplains office that was vital to contacting my family members and was there to offer any spiritual help.  Most of the Nurses and Doctors where amazed at my recovery and certainly did not object to my pointing to God as a component of that recovery.  Think of the Hospitals that are linked to and get some funding from religious institutions?  By necessity they would go the way of the Dinosaur along with charities like the salvation army.

I grant that there is a chance that my polemic may ruffle some feathers but this is all food for thought as atheists would naturally want to secularize and sanitize these institutions from the cancer that is religion. amiright?

Oh and I forgot to mention The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation as example of what well funded atheistic charities might look like: http://www.gatesfoundation.org/Pages/home.aspx

[pinkocommie]

I grant that there is a chance that my polemic may ruffle some feathers but this is all food for thought as atheists would naturally want to secularize and sanitize these institutions from the cancer that is religion. amiright?

It's not really easy to pin down what atheists in general would or wouldn't want.    Personally, I see nothing wrong with someone holding any belief, religious or otherwise.  It's when beliefs are politicized and imposed on others instead of striving for true equality that I become a vocal opposition of religion.  Otherwise I think of it as something people either get into or they don't.  To me, religiousness is the same thing as being really into any specific subject.  I really love cartoons and toys.  Other people really love their god.  Whatever.  

Religious services in hospitals don't bother me, I think it fulfills the emotional needs of certain people and makes the hospital a more tolerable place for enough people that it's warranted.  Just like having nice big calming aquariums and fountains in hospitals fulfills the emotional needs of people, religious practitioners and a room dedicated to prayer facilitate yet another avenue for people to cope with their hospital experiences.  Now, if they put a cross in every room and said prayers over you and stuff, that would bother me.  Having the option available?  Totally cool with that.  I'm just one atheist though, I'm sure plenty of people may not agree with me on this.

[Whitney]

The Red Cross is an example of what an atheist charity would look like as it is completely secular...and that's just a well recognized example.  Atheists haven't tended to slap atheist, freethought, etc onto their community support projects in the past because they didn't feel the need to and even feared doing so would harm their efforts....times are changing; I just started a thread (today or yesterday) to help list all the the (many) atheist/freethought run non-profit and charity groups out there.

What is offensive about your post is that you are acting like things would all go down the toilet if the world were turned over to atheists tomorrow....there is simply no basis for that conclusion (aside from fundamentalist religious people freaking out because they think we're the devil).

[freeservant]

Totally cool with that.  I'm just one atheist though, I'm sure plenty of people may not agree with me on this.

I do not posit that atheism is a monolith unless it is a monolith of cats being herded.  Yet there is a kind of Richard Dawkins / Sam Harris inference of a godless utopia to come once we are all freed from the shackles of child abusing religion and how it keeps us from our evolutionary progression.  Humanism is an effort to kind of get the cats in more of a cohesive group but then you have to recognize that some theists would fear the Nihilism to come.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the ... e-religion

I don't know that I think the above article to be true but I can't find the quote about how the only real way to get rid of a religion is with a new religion.  Maybe scientism will do the trick.  Otherwise the vital link with God will cause Christianity to never be totally defeated until the Second Coming of Christs closes the issue.  Yet I do see an endtime effort to secularize and privatize Christian religious views.  If Atheism is the truth and is clearly the new paradigm to come then it should rise in this free and open marketplace of ideas.  Or it will close the marketplace and rise that way.  You can see where both are being tried.

And as far as herding cats go there is the idea that once we have rid mankind of the God idea the Government will have to replace God.

"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God." - Christendom in Dublin, 1933
--G K Chesterton

But you are likely tired of hearing that...

The Red Cross is an example of what an atheist charity would look like as it is completely secular... snip

What is offensive about your post is that you are acting like things would all go down the toilet if the world were turned over to atheists tomorrow....there is simply no basis for that conclusion (aside from fundamentalist religious people freaking out because they think we're the devil).

I don't think atheists are the devil as even Satan wants to be recognized and bowed down to as the rightful prince of this earth.  And there is prophecy that he will be loosed for a short time to get just the sort of worship he craves.  In that possible world the atheist is going to have just as hard a time as the true Bible believing Christian as even the elect would be deceived if God permitted it.

If atheism is the correct truth and is the natural consequence of mankind advancing then no, in no way will all go to hell in a hand-basket.  Well... There is an ecological sustainability issue we all have to deal with that may mean a mass extinction event regardless but let us both hope that we are clever enough to figure out what to do.  That is if God is not indeed in control.  But I can see that if there is no God then we are going to be in trouble now that we are abandoning things like the space program and the needed scientific advances that we give up with that.  Regardless the ascendancy of atheism will not be any kind of notable cause for any kind of instant crash or flushing sound...

[Whitney]

abandoning things like the space program and the needed scientific advances that we give up with that. .

Don't worry, they are just retiring this generation of space shuttles, not shutting down the whole program:

At the core of NASA's future in space exploration is a return to the moon, where we will build a sustainable, long-term human presence.

As the space shuttle approaches retirement, NASA is building the next fleet of vehicles to service the International Space Station and return humans to the moon, and possibly to Mars and beyond. In support of these efforts, ESMD is performing field tests, designing surface systems and conducting advanced human research to ensure that future missions are safe, sustainable and affordable.

On Feb. 1, 2010, the President released the FY 2011 Budget Request. The budget proposes several exciting new programs that seek to foster a sustainable human space exploration enterprise. Although our philosophy and approach to exploration will change, our fundamental goal remains the same: to send human explorers into the solar system to stay.

http://www.nasa.gov/exploration/home/index.html

[Thumpalumpacus]

Now remember that the first statement was in a polemical style that does illustrate that if atheism is the truth awakening of all us deluded people then religious institutions like Hospitals and Charities like the salvation army are going to have to naturally give way to the coming tide of secular dominance.

The unexamined premise in this passage is that goodness is monopolized by religion.

It deserves scrutiny.

[freeservant]

Now remember that the first statement was in a polemical style that does illustrate that if atheism is the truth awakening of all us deluded people then religious institutions like Hospitals and Charities like the salvation army are going to have to naturally give way to the coming tide of secular dominance.

The unexamined premise in this passage is that goodness is monopolized by religion.

It deserves scrutiny.

Yes it does deserve scrutiny as I already think that mankind is not inherently good unlike the romantics view.  But I see us ALL as having a moral compass and natural desires to do what is right.  Again beyond the issue of a bottom up or top down process it means that goodness should have no monopoly.  Harmful and terrible things have been done in the name of religion.  Good and wonderful things have been done by non-believers.  That is why the Christian views this as a fallen world with the disposition to entropy.  We all know that we should be more selfless and that there is a perpetual injustice in this world and the suffering all around us.  Humanism is an effort to see that religion does not have a monopoly.  But any relativism that exists means that nihilism is going to be the ultimate blind and reckless master...

To any fellow Christian that may be reading this I would say that we need to not be puffed up as we are all more alike in our nature to do good/evil as anybody else.

[Thumpalumpacus]

But any relativism that exists means that nihilism is going to be the ultimate blind and reckless master.

Nonsense. My life has the meaning I assign it, whether you share my morals or not.

[Tank]

But any relativism that exists means that nihilism is going to be the ultimate blind and reckless master.

Nonsense. My life has the meaning I assign it, whether you share my morals or not.

Well said. The opinion of another person about me has no impact on me, unless I let it. I choose to not let it have an effect on me. If a person wants to sit in a pile of self pity and wail about how their life is a pile of poo that's their time to waste. I'll take my dogs for a walk and chat to all the other people taking their dogs for a walk