Re: Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!

[Dretlin]

The drawing of Muhammed is not directed at moderate Muslims. The drawing of Muhammed is the key point to the entire craze.

I do not mind the practicing of religion - I do become alert when someone demands their relgious laws apply to me - drawing Muhammed is a clear and direct way of showing you are not part of that system of religious law nor will you have it impossed on you.

No one has the right to not be offended.

The problem is not that the drawings will offend moderate Muslims, but that it will unnecessarily offend them.  And whether you direct the drawings to extremists or not (I have no idea how exactly you can "direct" a drawing towards extremists), in the process you are guaranteed to offend moderates.  And for what benefit?  How is offending the extremists going to change them?  It seems more likely to me that the drawings will make the moderates sympathise with the Anti-Western extremist agenda, and enrage the extremists further.

No one has the right to not be offended.

Your argument is teetering on the edge of my statement. Free speech is more important than anything we have in the west. You seem all to eager to ignore that.

[G-Roll]

The problem is not that the drawings will offend moderate Muslims, but that it will unnecessarily offend them. And whether you direct the drawings to extremists or not (I have no idea how exactly you can "direct" a drawing towards extremists), in the process you are guaranteed to offend moderates. And for what benefit? How is offending the extremists going to change them? It seems more likely to me that the drawings will make the moderates sympathise with the Anti-Western extremist agenda, and enrage the extremists further.

this is probably true. but i like to argue and offend people.

so i say free speech (and offending muslims in general) is important to the west and the rest of the world to. we should also draw stupid pictures of jesus, jew god, and asshole atheists.
pagans too dont leave them out. buddists, EVERYONE.
i think that there should be a day where you offend as many people as you can so maybe we can kill all this overly PC crap.

i find things like affirmative action, dora the explorer and the whole swiper no swiping thing, sexual repression, religious billboards, no alcohol sales on sundays, racial profiling, discrimination, and the horrid smell of my own ass offensive.

[hvargas]

What is " FREE SPEECH "? Two people are having a conversation in their homes, they can say whatever they want. Thats free speech. The same two person go on national television, they can't just say whatever they want. The question will be: where does free speech ends? Is there a limit or do we take the doors off of the toilets and let everyone see each other as they used it. It does not matter what your belief may be, there should be respect for others in what they believe. The problem with people in some society is that they enjoy mocking others and finding defects which they compare to themselves. By doing this such people demonstrate their lack of being  " HUMAN " . They have as much to learn as those they put down.

[G-Roll]

The problem with people in some society is that they enjoy mocking others and finding defects which they compare to themselves.

some societies? what societies dont do this? oh right the ones who go to jail for saying what they think.

The same two person go on national television, they can't just say whatever they want.

why not?

The question will be: where does free speech ends?

that is a good question if changed to, what speech is tolerable for public use?

Is there a limit or do we take the doors off of the toilets and let everyone see each other as they used it.

so we should be anyone but ourselves?

[philosoraptor]

It does not matter what your belief may be, there should be respect for others in what they believe.

Yes, and I believe that legally, I have the right to draw Mohammed if I want to.  I don't believe in him, what difference does it make to me?  Am I going to do it?  Probably not.  But a religious group does not have the right to enforce their viewpoint on other people, which is what is essentially happening here, and as an atheist I find that offensive and disrespectful .  The writers of South Park received death threats after they aired an episode that alluded to Mohammed being dressed in a bear suit.  Is it nice to mock religion?  Perhaps not, but it's still a right people have.  Why should Muslims out of all other groups be exempt?

[philosoraptor]

Pardon the double post, but I just looked up the group in question on Facebook.  The group promoting the drawing of Mohammed currently has 8,524 fans.  The group opposing it?  317.  Of course it's all anecdotal, but I still think it's pretty telling, especially if you look at the individuals in both groups.

[pinkocommie]

It does not matter what your belief may be, there should be respect for others in what they believe.

Yes, and I believe that legally, I have the right to draw Mohammed if I want to.  I don't believe in him, what difference does it make to me?  Am I going to do it?  Probably not.  But a religious group does not have the right to enforce their viewpoint on other people, which is what is essentially happening here, and as an atheist I find that offensive and disrespectful .  The writers of South Park received death threats after they aired an episode that alluded to Mohammed being dressed in a bear suit.  Is it nice to mock religion?  Perhaps not, but it's still a right people have.  Why should Muslims out of all other groups be exempt?

You hit the nail on the head here.  If a religion says it's bad to draw someone, let the people who follow that religion not draw that person.  The minute they try to tell anyone outside their group that they also have to dictate their behavior according to the foreign religion is the minute they go from being a group that deserves tolerance to being a group that is actively trying to impose their beliefs on others, and should be actively protested.

[elliebean]

If I wanted to practice Islam I would convert, but I don't. If anybody is offended by that, let them come and tell me; I have a few suggestions for them as well.  


I had some examples of how I've actively enforced my 'live and let live' policy before, but..... suffice it to say, I have no tolerence for intolerance.

[Whitney]

I have Muslim fb friends that I don't want to offend they never pushed their religious views on me and I feel mass actions like this make it too easy for people to forget that just because someone follows a religion doesn't mean that they necessarily act like that religion's most vocal crazy group.

[philosoraptor]

Yeah but no one is forcing Muslims to watch South Park, or look at drawings depicting Mohammed.  They are free to change the channel or not view a web page.  On the flip side, they are trying to dictate the behavior of people outside of their religious group by making threats, so I'm at a point where I'm not feeling very sympathetic.  I have Muslim friends too, but most of them are level-headed enough that they wouldn't get their knickers in a twist over something like a stupid and offensive TV show that has a history of being stupid and offensive.

[McQ]

Probably because when people exercise their freedom of speech by drawing Mohammed, Muslim extremists threaten to bomb them in an attempt to quash that freedom.  They may not like it, but if they're free to practice their religion, other people are free to think it's ridiculous and oppressive.

Right.  You seem to forget about the millions of non-violent Muslims who do not oppose freedom of speech.  No demonstration is required to show that violent forms of Islam are ridiculous and oppressive - that is self-evident.  Why not spend the energy encouraging non-violent Muslims to stand-up to their extremist brothers and sisters (i.e. something positive)?

I don't "seem" to forget anything.  I'm well aware of the millions of non-violent Muslims.  I'm still entitled to draw Mohammed if I want to.  Might they be offended?  Yeah.  You know what offends me?  Organized religion.

YOU seem to forget that in countries dominated by extremist Muslim regimes, descent is not an option, unless you want to die.  Tell a non-violent Muslim in Afghanistan to stand up to an extremist and see what the response is.

You do mean "dissent", right?  

Just picturing the inability to procreate and have descendants in Muslim-ruled countries. That would end their party pretty quickly!

[philosoraptor]

I did mean dissent.  Staying up for 16 hours studying for finals will do that to you.  

[Evolved]

Is there a limit or do we take the doors off of the toilets and let everyone see each other as they used it.

Heeeeeeeeeeeey!  Now you're talkin'!

[Davin]

The problem is not that the drawings will offend moderate Muslims, but that it will unnecessarily offend them.  And whether you direct the drawings to extremists or not (I have no idea how exactly you can "direct" a drawing towards extremists), in the process you are guaranteed to offend moderates.  And for what benefit?  How is offending the extremists going to change them?  It seems more likely to me that the drawings will make the moderates sympathise with the Anti-Western extremist agenda, and enrage the extremists further.

No one's beliefs should be protected from criticism and/or satire. If some comedian starts telling people how ridiculous my "Belief" in gravity is, I have no problem with that. They can make fun of gravity till bovine meander back to their place of living and I won't care a lick. Why then is it not ok to make fun of or criticize ones belief in god?

Maybe that's not in the same line of reasoning, as drawing and mocking Mohamed is more of a rule than just the belief in something. So if someone comes up and tells me how silly it is to practice free speech or just to criticize it, I don't care. I won't force others to practice free speech, they can if they want to. Why then is it ok to limit my ability to make fun of something I see as an irrational belief? I make fun of people that think that the world is flat (yes, some of them are still around). I make fun of people that think that a space ship is hiding behind a comet and that they must kill themselves in order to hitch a ride (because they forgot their towels?).

Now an example switched to my point of view: When I was very young I had the belief that atom bombs were called mushroom bombs because they used mushrooms and that the use of the mushrooms is what caused the shape of the explosion. So when some jerk started making fun of me, it deeply offended and hurt me. But after that I realized that if any idea I had could not stand up to scrutiny and satire, then I had no right in believing it in the first place.

If someone gets offended by anything I say, draw or type then they have that right, what they don't have a right to do is to prevent me from saying, drawing or typing it by means of intimidation, making it a law or killing me. The point is, no idea should beyond the limits of satire and criticism. There is no sacred cow in the realm of free speech.

[Ellainix]

No one has the right to not be offended.

I think the lesson is more along the lines of right to criticize and freedom FROM religion.