Sex, moderation, and responsibility...what is appropriate?

[Big Mac]

My motto is:

"If it's fun, feels good, enjoyable, or makes you feel better about yourself then it has to be offensive to Christians soon enough."

[easytrak]

i think you have to moderate the pleasures which you take in this life, otherwise there is a danger you risk placing too much importance on them. that can be unhealthy or even self-destructive. take for example drug abuse, gluttony, rampant abortion and so on.

[donkeyhoty]

"rampant abortion"?  Does that actually take place?  And how many would be considered rampant, 2 in 10 years, 2 in 5 years, 3 in 7, or is 1 too many?

[Whitney]

i think you have to moderate the pleasures which you take in this life, otherwise there is a danger you risk placing too much importance on them. that can be unhealthy or even self-destructive. take for example drug abuse, gluttony, rampant abortion and so on.

I understand it being good to moderate use of drugs (personally I just refrain completely other than the legal type), I understand it is good to moderate food intake because eating too much will make a person fat which leads to numerous health issues...what I don't get is how you think sex leads to rampant abortion.  

Have you ever heard of birth control?  We may not have ways to control the unwanted affects of drugs or eating too much but we certainly have ways to prevent the unwanted effects of sex:  use condoms and take the pill.  There really isn't a reason to have sex in moderation when it is practiced safely.  If everyone did this the abortion rate would be so low that there would be no room to call it rampant...it would also lead to fewer unwanted babies and thus fewer kids needing to be adopted which might make those few who get pregnant despite being on the pill more likely to consider adoption as an option.

I say seek pleasure in abundance but realize that some things which bring pleasure should be avoided or only enjoyed on occasion.  Life is what we make it, might as well try to make it fun.

[SteveS]

My motto is:

Drugs are bad because they mess you up.
Beer is okay because it wears off.

Seriously, the moderation thing is important, I drink like 2 beers a day, unless I'm at a hockey game, and I don't go to all that many.  My liver being a little longer than average doesn't bother me.  If it curls up and falls out, well that would bother me (but at least not for too long because I'd perish shortly thereafter  :wink:  )

I say seek pleasure in abundance but realize that some things which bring pleasure should be avoided or only enjoyed on occasion.

Yeah, once I bought a pipe from the tobacco store.  I enjoyed smoking it tremendously, especially if I smoked it while reading.  In fact, I quit entirely because I became afraid I would want to do it all the time and then suffer a lot of health consequences.

I think abortions are morally allowable (esp. 1st trimester).  I just can't understand how forcing people to go through with unwanted pregnancies is somehow less cruel than aborting a senseless embryo.  We treat people medically for "quality of life" issues all the time.  How is forcing someone to be a parent when they don't want to be, and then sentencing a child to be born to an unwilling parent, doing anything but degrading the "life quality" of the people involved?  Or, what if the mother is older, in a happy family with children, and she and her husband are proactively using birth control because they don't want any more children, then the birth control fails.  Who feels justified telling them it's too bad that happened but they're just going to have to suck it up and raise another child?

[easytrak]

i see some problems in both condoms and the pill. the problem with condoms is that it just seems like masturbation anyway. the problem with the pill is that you are messing up your body. the other method which is to just not have intercourse when the wife is in her fertile period avoids both issues.

the way i see it, sex has three aspects: pleasure, love and procreation. if you try to isolate the pleasure aspect you must try to get rid of love and procreation. that means trying to avoid the responsibilities associated with sex. but you don't get nothing for nothing. so yes, seek pleasure, but make sure you can pay the price for it.

unrestrained sex does not only lead to unwanted pregnancy. there is also STDs, which plague africa. people can get broken hearts too because they get used. there is sex addictions, such as to pornography. and what can merely condoms and the pill do against all these?

i think abortion could be considered rampant because it occurs in the millions worldwide. in some countries the population is becoming old and dying out. and what about governments giving cash bonuses to people who decide to have children?

i think back in the past there were more adoption agencies around so when an unwanted pregnancy came along, people had a place to go. it is weird that we have both IVF clinics and abortion clinics these days. maybe the people who go to the IVF clinic should instead just go to the people who have unwanted pregnancy?

at any rate, i am sure you can agree that sex is very addictive. and anything which is addictive should never be underestimated, because it will control you.

[Whitney]

The rythm method has a high failure rate compared to other forms of birth control.  I don't advise using it.  Rx companies need to make the IUD less expensive, I've talked to women who use them currently and apparently the issues with cramping aren't nearly as bad now as they use to be...the IUD doesn't necessarily have to be medicated.

The side effects of the pill really aren't any worse than any number of medications people take daily.  Pregnancy surely does mess with your body.

I wouldn't use a dying population for a reason not to have abortions or consider it rampent....the world population has been skyrocketing.  Some projections indicate we will be populated past our resources within our lifetimes.

There are still plenty of adoption agencies...i've never heard of a woman wanting to put a kid up for adoption and being turned away.  Not everyone thinks adoption is good for a child and not everyone wants to carry a baby they don't want for 9 months...pregnancy isn't easy.  Some people want to have a baby that is genetically theirs, who are we to say the woman can't have IVF done to her own body and force her to adopts?  

No, I really wouldn't consider sex addictive.  I like it, but, unlike an addiction, I can refrain easily.  If sex were truly addictive spouses could not get angry if their spouse goes on a buisness trip, cheats, then claims s/he simply couldn't stop him/herself.

[SteveS]

not everyone wants to carry a baby they don't want for 9 months...pregnancy isn't easy

Too true - my wife developed Preeclampsia during her first pregnancy.  The condition is potentially life threatening (it sure made me nervous).

No, I really wouldn't consider sex addictive. I like it, but, unlike an addiction, I can refrain easily. If sex were truly addictive spouses could not get angry if their spouse goes on a buisness trip, cheats, then claims s/he simply couldn't stop him/herself.

Lol - couldn't agree more.  I travel frequently, and I've never had a probelm where I just had to get laid!  If I did cheat, my wife would have every right to be completely pissed at me (as would I be at her if, when I got home, I found she slept with somebody and used "I just couldn't wait any longer" as an excuse - give me a break).

Just a general note about pornography and masturbation --- why should I care?  I mean, if that's what someone wants to do with their free time, then they should have fun (just spare me the gory details, I'm not interested).

[Scrybe]

I'll back you up on that one.  I can testify to the way curtailing your thought life works in a positive way.  Basically, I see hot women and the automatic chemical reaction brings lustful thoughts to my mind.  But as I've practiced diverting it to more wholesome thoughts I've found my ability to relate to women as more than sexual objects has increased tremendously.  I think if all men strove for this kind of discipline in their thought-lives we would have a much more civil society much friendlier to women and their needs.  

To propose that any and every thought or fantasy is harmless is to undercut any notion of mental discipline.  Think of the ramifications for countless people who struggle with specific issues in their lives like obesity, (Go ahead, fantasize about eating ho-hos all day long!) drugs, (Go ahead, fantasize about how much fun you could be having if you were high!) gangs, (Go ahead, fantasize about how great it would be to kill your enemies!) adulterers, (Go ahead, fantasize about sex with another woman!) and the list could go on and on.  Clearly, these are thoughts that can and do cause individuals and society at large big, big problems.

[donkeyhoty]

Clearly, these are thoughts that can and do cause individuals and society at large big, big problems.

So, are you saying that fantasizing about stuff rather than actually doing it is a bad thing?  'Cuz that's just plain dumb.

To propose that any and every thought or fantasy is harmless is to undercut any notion of mental discipline.

I believe the opposite.  The inability to separate fantasy from reality, and in your case supressing fantasy completely, is undercutting mental discipline.  In essence you are saying, "I can't control myself, so I'll just run away."  Another example, it's easy, relatively, to get clean in a rehab facility.  It's when that eight ball is sitting right in front of you that you need mental discipline.

Also, you're discussing more of wanting to do something rather than fantasizing about it.  If you want to cheat on your spouse, or kill your enemies or get high(what's wrong with that?), you're going to do it, no amount of fantasy or supression of fantasy will make a bit of difference.

[SteveS]

donkeyhoty,

The inability to separate fantasy from reality

I was reading this thinking almost exactly the same thing.  If I load up a satisfyingly violent video game and play it, am I:

1) Indulging in a dangerous fantasy that will make it more likely for me to behave in a like fashion "in reality"

or

2) Finding a safe outlet, in fantasy, for some base inner instincts that have been left hanging around by evolution (we've all got that nasty old crocodile brain inside us)

Personally, I'm going with number 2.  I just don't get that confused between "make believe" and "for real".

[Whitney]

Couldn't fantacising about certain things bring a person to choose not to do what they originally thought they wanted to do?  For instance, over eating... a quick thought about all those yummy treats may lead to temptation but if the person stops to fantacise about eating those treats he/she will also have more time to remember that the taste is short lived and fat is a pain to get rid of.  that's actually how I get over cravings, I think about what I want, decide what it is i'm really craving, think about it for a bit...fantacising about being able to eat a off the list food usually makes the craving go away...if it doesn't, enjoy in moderation.

It's when we suppress our urges that they come back to bite us later.

[easytrak]

laetusatheos, I will just go back to what we were talking about earlier. I do not have any objections to the fact that things like the pill and condoms can stop pregnancy. Maybe they can do so even better than the rhythm method. I do not attempt to dispute these matters. I am more interested in the mentality behind the use of these procedures, in other words, how does it influence what we perceive to be right or wrong in our daily life?

condoms seem to justify the practice of non-sexual intercourse, in other words, no longer does intercourse have to be about the union of male and female genitals. climax could be attained some other way. the male genital, with a condom over it, becomes simply a pleasure instrument.

the pill justifies tampering with your own body. whether or not the pill is serious enough to worry about I don't really know. there are other drugs out there which tamper with people's bodies and the effects are serious. pill-popping is not something which should be taken lightly. and anything which interferes with natural bodily function is bound to have harmful consequences. incidentally the pill also apparently can be abortive.

okay, i agree the world population is increasing. i was just referring to the developed countries.

when it comes to abortion, I am pretty much zero tolerance. I believe the unborn child is a human being, and I don't believe anyone has a right to cause harm to another human being, whether it be theft, rape, murder, scandal or otherwise. if we allow people to harm each other, there is chaos in society.

the mentality behind IVF is that artificial conception is ok - playing with embryos in a dish. it breeds irreverence for human life.

you say sex is easy to refrain from, but i would just simply say again don't underestimate the power of the sex appetite.

steveS, sure people can masturbate if they want to. but while we can allow them their free-will (provided they do not impinge upon the rights of others) we cannot condone their actions if they are wrong.

---

so now we are talking about temptations and how to overcome them. To me, temptations, in whatever shape or form, are a challenge for me to think about the meaning of life and whether or not i am on the right track. struggles are good because you grow through them, into either greater good or greater evil.

[SteveS]

Man, this statement

steveS, sure people can masturbate if they want to. but while we can allow them their free-will (provided they do not impinge upon the rights of others) we cannot condone their actions if they are wrong.

plays exactly into the consequentialist / absolutist morality discussion I was having in another thread.  To me, easytrak, if a person is not impinging upon the rights of others, than how can I judge their action as immoral?  To me morality is how we interact with other people (and to some extent animals).  If a person decides to masturbate, all by themselves, how are they hurting anyone else?  So, what makes this action wrong?  Nothing, in my atheistic opinion.  You'll probably argue that god has laid down laws about certain sexual practices.  But ...

Here's a funny thing - why is god so concerned with sexuality?  I mean, evolution has given us a terrific and practical explanation of why people are so sexual (finding sex pleasurable led to lots of sex, which led to lots of children, who also found sex pleasurable through heredity; after a while the population is going to be mostly composed of people that want to have a lot of sex).  But here's the funny part, god doesn't reproduce sexually, right?  There's only one god, he doesn't lust after other gods.  So why would god be so obsessed with sexual behavior (masturbation, homosexuality, all the weird OT laws)?  The obvious answer to me, of course, is that people are sexually obsessed and god was an idea created by people.  So, people conceptualized a sexually obsessed god.  Who they claim is telling people not to masturbate (Remember "Real Genius"?  And from now on, stop playing with yourself.  It is God! ).

[Whitney]

condoms seem to justify the practice of non-sexual intercourse, in other words, no longer does intercourse have to be about the union of male and female genitals. climax could be attained some other way. the male genital, with a condom over it, becomes simply a pleasure instrument.

Are you concerned about the condom preventing pregnancy or that in some way a thin piece of rubber somehow makes the penis into a sex toy?  I don't see how skin not directly touching skin in just that area would take away any of the union part of sex...there's a whole body attached to the penis.  To explain why I don't find a difference worth noting would require going into detail describing what people feel during sex.

the pill justifies tampering with your own body. whether or not the pill is serious enough to worry about I don't really know. there are other drugs out there which tamper with people's bodies and the effects are serious. pill-popping is not something which should be taken lightly. and anything which interferes with natural bodily function is bound to have harmful consequences.

That's why we weight the advantages/risks associated with taking a medication before deciding to use it.  The pill is associated with a mild risk of stroke (especially in women over the age of 35 who smoke).  The pill can be used to regulate an abnormal period (advantage).  It serves as a preventative measure against unwanted pregnancy (advantage which avoids all risks associated with pregnancy).

incidentally the pill also apparently can be abortive.

Those who are concerned about that can take a pill that prevents the release of the egg.  I'm pretty sure the most common forms of birth control pills work that way...I don't care if a recently fertilized egg is spontaneously aborted (happens all the time naturally).

okay, i agree the world population is increasing. i was just referring to the developed countries.

Would your views on abortion change if the world was overpopulated...where abortion would prevent further harm to those who are already alive by preventing more people being added to the population and further draining non-renewable resources and scare food supplies?  This may be the case soon if population growth continues in the same pattern, so it's something to think about.

when it comes to abortion, I am pretty much zero tolerance. I believe the unborn child is a human being, and I don't believe anyone has a right to cause harm to another human being, whether it be theft, rape, murder, scandal or otherwise. if we allow people to harm each other, there is chaos in society.

I agree that harming others leads to chaos.  What I don't agree with is that a fertilized egg deserves person-hood.  There is nothing special about it other than an egg and a sperm combined...it isn't until much later on into development that it becomes something with the attributes we typically apply to being a person.  

the mentality behind IVF is that artificial conception is ok - playing with embryos in a dish. it breeds irreverence for human life.

Well the whole point behind IVF is to create human life...so I don't see how that leads to irreverence of life; those who have a successful IVF arguably will appreciate that baby more simply because they waited so long to be able to have one.

you say sex is easy to refrain from, but i would just simply say again don't underestimate the power of the sex appetite.

Of course the desire is always there (that's natural) but all you have to do to refrain is get busy doing something else and the urge will pass.  But, since I find no reason to refrain (other than refraining from sex with someone other than my fiance...when I'm in a relationship my desire for others naturally turns off) I don't have to worry about controlling urges.

sure people can masturbate if they want to. but while we can allow them their free-will (provided they do not impinge upon the rights of others) we cannot condone their actions if they are wrong.

Masturbation done in private has no bad effects on others and also serves as a stress reliever (just like sex does...sex is also a good cardio workout, btw).  If masturbation has any affect on others it is that it allows that person to be less stressed and less tense so that they will be more agreeable to be around.  How can masturbation be wrong if it doesn't hurt anyone?  Do you think wasting sperm is wrong?  If you don't masturbate it will be naturally expelled (wasted) eventually anyway.

so now we are talking about temptations and how to overcome them.

I don't think we are quite there yet.  We don't agree on what is a temptation that should be avoided and what is simply a pleasurable experience.