“I always Lie” and theories of consciousness

[fdesilva]

All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence. Thus the accuracy and reality of knowledge depends on the accuracy and reality of consciousness. Thus any theory about the consciousness  experience that concludes consciousness to be an illusion, falls into the same  logical inconsistency of a person that says “I always lie”

That is, it becomes a theory that cannot be evaluated to be true or false as the means to evaluating the theory, namely the conscious experience is false.

So then a theory on consciousness must be able to explain all of the axioms of consciousness in full.
Now then what are these axioms? I think the core axioms of Consciousness are the following
The Conscious experience consist of 3 components.
1.   The observed. (U ) (I am looking at a computer monitor, the monitor is U)
2.   The Observer (I)( The thing with me that I call me that’s looking at the monitor)
3.   Free will ( The thing I call me can press any key on the computer key pad)

[AlP]

All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence. Thus the accuracy and reality of knowledge depends on the accuracy and reality of consciousness. Thus any theory about the consciousness  experience that concludes consciousness to be an illusion, falls into the same  logical inconsistency of a person that says “I always lie”

I do not accept your premise.

[fdesilva]

All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence. Thus the accuracy and reality of knowledge depends on the accuracy and reality of consciousness. Thus any theory about the consciousness  experience that concludes consciousness to be an illusion, falls into the same  logical inconsistency of a person that says “I always lie”

I do not accept your premise.

Could you please say why?

[Whitney]

All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence. Thus the accuracy and reality of knowledge depends on the accuracy and reality of consciousness. Thus any theory about the consciousness  experience that concludes consciousness to be an illusion, falls into the same  logical inconsistency of a person that says “I always lie”

I do not accept your premise.

Could you please say why?

Because it's not logical....here's why.

I always lie is illogical because someone who always lies can't make a truth statement about their always lying.

On the contrary, we are able to speak about our dreams being illusions knowing that they are illusions after we wake up.  Take this one step further and make our entire life experiences one giant dream...no matter what we think about that dream while we are dreaming it, it's still an illusion.

btw, I think you are using the word axiom incorrectly.

[fdesilva]

Because it's not logical....here's why.

I always lie is illogical because someone who always lies can't make a truth statement about their always lying.

On the contrary, we are able to speak about our dreams being illusions knowing that they are illusions after we wake up.  Take this one step further and make our entire life experiences one giant dream...no matter what we think about that dream while we are dreaming it, it's still an illusion.

btw, I think you are using the word axiom incorrectly.

The dream is the content of a conscious experience. The content been an illusion does not make the Conscious Experience something that does not exists. Just as much as a story in a book may be fictitious but that does not mean the book is not real.
Why would axioms not be a proper term for the properties of Consciouness?

[Sophus]

The dream is the content of a conscious experience. The content been an illusion does not make the Conscious Experience something that does not exists. Just as much as a story in a book may be fictitious but that does not mean the book is not real.
Why would axioms not be a proper term for the properties of Consciouness?

Aren't "axioms" widely accepted 'truths'?

Any-who... I see what you're saying about the dreams, in the sense that the dreaming itself is occurring. However, they are products of the unconscious or subconscious. What temporarily feels real and convinces us so (unless lucid) isn't happening in reality, beyond our own brain activity. Your opposition would argue just that: reality is what occurs within our very brain. I like your thinking behind the book analogy, but I think a more appropriate comparison may be a hallucination, mirage or some forms of schizophrenia, because during such we are not voluntarily fantasizing or aware we are experiencing an illusion, which is the real crux of the matter.

The idea that life is an illusion usually implies that our senses are a mere imperfect tool for detecting reality. It does not demand everything you know is wrong nor that you "always lie", rather that you simply cannot know.

As far as freewill goes - you can press any key, indeed. But only the ones you want to.  

[Whitney]

Aren't "axioms" widely accepted 'truths'?

Yes.

edit:  more specifically "self evident" truths

[Whitney]

So um....why did you even bring up this topic.  I don't recall anyone making the claim that reality is an illusion.

[Sophus]

So um....why did you even bring up this topic.  I don't recall anyone making the claim that reality is an illusion.

As I mentioned earlier, often Christianity tries to pass all atheists off as Nihilists. Either way, still fun to think about. Lately I've been wondering what would be required of an artificial computer to gain awareness/consciousness under the premises that our brains are a computing system, functioning deterministically.  

[AlP]

Could you please say why?

Specifically the premise:

All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence.

It seems inconsistent with reality.

[fdesilva]

Could you please say why?

Specifically the premise:

All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence.

It seems inconsistent with reality.

Are you saying the statement
P1 : All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence
Is False.
If so please give me a counter example.

[Whitney]

Are you saying the statement
P1 : All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence
Is False.
If so please give me a counter example.

Knowledge is basically just obtaining data.  Bugs have knowledge of their surroundings (such as the vibrations they pick up in their antenna) but, as far as we can tell, do not have consciousness (self awareness).

[fdesilva]

Are you saying the statement
P1 : All of Human knowledge needs Consciousness for its creation and existence
Is False.
If so please give me a counter example.

Knowledge is basically just obtaining data.  Bugs have knowledge of their surroundings (such as the vibrations they pick up in their antenna) but, as far as we can tell, do not have consciousness (self awareness).

That is not a counter example as Bugs are not human. Please note I am talking of Human Knowledge

[fdesilva]

So um....why did you even bring up this topic.  I don't recall anyone making the claim that reality is an illusion.

As I mentioned earlier, often Christianity tries to pass all atheists off as Nihilists. Either way, still fun to think about. Lately I've been wondering what would be required of an artificial computer to gain awareness/consciousness under the premises that our brains are a computing system, functioning deterministically.  

Compters gain awareness would to me mean that they must satisfy the 3 properties or axioms I stated. If you agree with me are you game to explore if they can satisfy these 3 axioms

[Whitney]

That is not a counter example as Bugs are not human. Please note I am talking of Human Knowledge

I think you need to work on conveying your point a bit more clearly.

Knowledge is knowledge....not sure what "human knowledge" is that makes the counter example not valid as bugs are also organic beings.

Btw, the word you are looking for is properties..not axiom.