If seeing is believing

[Whitney]

This is just a quick general reminder that this forum is for discussion rather than preaching...I don't think this discussion has gone towards the preaching path yet but wanted to try to keep things on the discussion path since it appears a fork in the road might be on it's way.

[dionysiou]

dw whitney im not going to start preaching and the only thing that lets me escape from taking responsibility for my own actions is Jesus. I do believe in satan, of course i do, i am a christian remember. As for sincerity and well fare of humans, what are you talking about? I know i mess up and when i do i hurt myself more than anyone. But if i ever do hurt someone, i make sure i make amends. as a christian i have a duty to follow all the teachings which Jesus brought forward. as for the vatican and anyother religious sect, i have no association with them. I believe NO religion leads to the Father only Jesus. God is not interested in ceremony and ritual, he only wants your love and intimate friendship!

[LoneMateria]

I've got a lot to respond to here so i'm going to make it as painless as possible to everyone involved (especially me).  So if I unintentionally skip over something that you wanted me to address please ask me again.

im sorry my stories bore you

We have an understanding of infinity.  The human brain just has a hard time grasping it.  I'm honestly not sure what assumption you are saying is incredibly big ... please clarify.  Also you say that belief is important.  Without that no matter how good the person is they can never enter heaven and are doomed to the alternatives (purgatory was declared not real by the pope and thus being a Catholic concept isn't [or shouldn't] be part of the Catholic faith ... which leaves hell).  So your god gives infinite rewards for belief but infinite punishment (or at least not reward depending on your particular faith) for thought crimes.  How is that moral?  It is divisive and creates an us vs them scenario ... either you are a Christian and thus a good person ... or you are evil and spend an spend eternity in torment of some kind.  Also it promotes thoughts over actions ... because your god can forgive you if you ask him to or if you repent.  How is this moral?

I might not of clarified myself and I'm too lazy to go back and check. But I'm talking about problems that give no answers (i.e. the topic, miracles and such).

I understand that and then what happens is that when we don't know the answer you insert your particular deity as the answer (i.e. making up an answer) because saying an honest, "I don't know" makes people uncomfortable.  Such is honesty.  

Do you really think that everything just stops? Everything that exists starts somewhere, Philosophy lesson: How many times can you cut a block of metal in half until its gone? Draw a square on a piece of paper...any size.. whatever. Now how much space is inside that square? (Please, don't even think about getting a ruler out!)We could put a 3 and 4 on each side and say, oh wait it's area is 12. But if we change the numbers to say 5 and 5...its now 25. So the area of that square, that physically hasn't changed, is 12 and 25? Put in any numbers you want to, we would have to logically say there is an infinite amount of space correct? And that includes perspective as well.

Took me a while to find out where I said that.  Philosophy can be used to make up an answer to anything you want.  I find it is often irrelevant for real world problems.  Also there is no proof that things go on infinitely.  That is why I was asking for someone to back up their assertion.  Your metal example asks a question based on faulty assumptions.  Faulty assumption number 1: everything can be divided evenly in half no matter what, 2: that things go away, 3: you use metal instead of an element like iron.  If you have a block of iron, when will it stop being iron?  Answer is when protons and electrons are changed.  If you take away a proton and an electron it is no longer iron it becomes another element.  Remember matter cannot be created or destroyed.   Now about your space inside a square ... it depends on your measurement.  There is an infinite number of numbers between integers which is what I think you are pointing at.  So what?  This same crappy example sounds like Achilles and the tortoise.  Achilles is the fastest runner there ever was.  He is challenged to race a tortoise.  He gives the tortoise a 15 meter head start and then takes off, by the time Achilles reaches 15 meters the tortoise has ran 6, by the time he reaches 6 meters the tortoise has ran 3 ... does Achilles ever beat the tortoise .... of course he does.  This type of thinking is flawed.

God did not and cannot reveal himself.

So your god is not all powerful then?

I'm thinking more along the lines of the Shroud of Turin, Mary appearing in Fatima, big stuff that really can't be explained...

The shroud is a medieval forgery ... scientific testing has proved it.  It is a cloth soaked in a special solution to preserve it and is a perfect negative.  One hypothesis of who made it linked to Leonardo Divinci.  But it's basically wrong from head to toe, evidence has shown the blood was added afterwards to the cloth and that the blood doesn't match the appearance of someone who took the beating Jesus supposedly did.  This is one of the earliest attempts at a camera (lost and rediscovered about 500 years later ... why did Divinci have to burn most of his notes and ideas?  Also one of his surviving fragments shows he thought of the concept of submarines back in that time ... crazy stuff).

I haven't researched Mary in Fatima so I can't comment on that one.

Neither Christians nor Atheists can prove that God doesn't/does exist.

Or the pink unicorn, or fairies, or Leprechauns, or Zeus, or Thor, or Wootan, or Apollo, or Romulus, etc. etc.

So basically an atheist argument we are getting closer to discovering that God doesn't exist is invalid, because there are an infinite things left to discover. But that should apply also to the theists saying that we are getting closer to proving that God exists ...right? The difference is that a Theists "proof" cannot be proved... Ha kind of ironic...it seems two sides are just in a big pickle. So maybe we've got all this junk to think about, is it simply about choice?

I've never seen so many Strawmen and unproven assertions in such a little paragraph.  

But I'm going to go on a whim and say this. God doesn't exist in the same exact way that we don't understand the meaning of existence. It was said a couple times that "matter proves existence", God isn't matter, we are matter, God is infinite right? He is then above our thinking and above our existence.

I've got a pretty good definition of existence ... what is real.  So when I say your god doesn't exist I am saying he isn't real.  Also to quote Albert Einstein about infinity, "There are two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity and i'm not sure about the former."  You can assert everything is infinite all you like but until you have proof there is no reason for us to believe you.

[notself]

About Fatima.  It started out with three prepubescent girls fasting until one of them had a vision (not unusual during fasts) and the others followed by saying they saw a vision.  Then there was a report of an unusual cloud covering the sun.  This weather phenomenon has been photographed many times and while impressive, it is still weather.  Then there was three predictions kept sealed for years.  One was a vision of hell.  One predicted WWII which was already underway. The last was a vision of the Pope going to heaven.  Religion + the beginning of puberty = Visions.
As for the "miracles"  there supposedly have been 66 official miracles, however all the Catholic sites listing these miracles are no longer in operation.  None of the miracles included the healing of amputees.

About Buddhism:  Karma, as it is normally spoken of, means action and the result of action.  It is not a destination or goal.

[Ellainix]

1) Whitney is not a guy.

That explains why she's been using a girl's name as her screen name this whole time!

[dionysiou]

im not telling you to take my experiences as proof for you, thats MY proof. You need to find your own proof. As for me and my friend, we DO believe in the same thing, whatever "many scholars" believe there are "other scholars" who believe otherwise, so theres no point even mentioning that.

[i_am_i]

alright well theres no point in me listing miracles that i read in articles or on wiki (who can trust it?) but ive got an older friend of mine who tells me while he was driving he was caught up in a vision, in the vision he is holding onto his girlfriend until Jesus approaches him and begins to gently pull her away and says " Shes set apart for me" My friend is on his knees and looking down, he says " Lord, I am alone" Jesus replies "I will sustain you" and the vision ends and his back in the car. You could say he was only hallucinating but He actually broke up with his girlfriend at that time over it. He's happily married to somebody else now anyway. Ive got another friend of mine who is an evangelist and he spends all his time praying with people and getting guidance from the Holy Spirit. His seen jesus 3 times. finally is the pastor of my church who was in a motorcycle accident when he was 18, He told me he went to heaven and Jesus asked him if he wanted to stay, he told Jesus "no" because he wanted to know him better on earth and actually help some people so he woke up. so yea, ive heard others but i dont personally know the people.

Oh brother. "His seen jesus 3 times." Now what the hell is that supposed to mean?

I saw Jesus tonight. He told me to tell you to LEARN HOW TO WRITE.

[plinkoblinko]

We have an understanding of infinity. The human brain just has a hard time grasping it.

Yeah we might have an "understanding" of infinity as in, aka know what it means. We've got a definition of what it is, and a little symbol too....but we have finite minds, we cannot comprehend infinity.

purgatory was declared not real by the pope and thus being a Catholic concept isn't [or shouldn't] be part of the Catholic faith ... which leaves hell

Um, I'm pretty sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church still acknowledges Purgatory. Was this declared recently?

So your god gives infinite rewards for belief but infinite punishment (or at least not reward depending on your particular faith) for thought crimes. How is that moral? It is divisive and creates an us vs them scenario ... either you are a Christian and thus a good person ... or you are evil and spend an spend eternity in torment of some kind. Also it promotes thoughts over actions ... because your god can forgive you if you ask him to or if you repent. How is this moral?

You know what morality is, this universal knowing of right and wrong we some how magically got from a unicorn that farts blue. What is morality not supposed to create? Morality and belief are completely different things. There are bad Christians, and there are Good Atheists. My point was that my belief, my faith, and my character determine my reward.
And you do know what it's like to be sorry right? You can't just go out to kill half a dozen people and expect to get forgiven if you truly aren't sorry, but we are not the ones to judge.

Took me a while to find out where I said that. Philosophy can be used to make up an answer to anything you want. I find it is often irrelevant for real world problems. Also there is no proof that things go on infinitely. That is why I was asking for someone to back up their assertion. Your metal example asks a question based on faulty assumptions. Faulty assumption number 1: everything can be divided evenly in half no matter what, 2: that things go away, 3: you use metal instead of an element like iron. If you have a block of iron, when will it stop being iron? Answer is when protons and electrons are changed. If you take away a proton and an electron it is no longer iron it becomes another element. Remember matter cannot be created or destroyed. Now about your space inside a square ... it depends on your measurement. There is an infinite number of numbers between integers which is what I think you are pointing at. So what? This same crappy example sounds like Achilles and the tortoise. Achilles is the fastest runner there ever was. He is challenged to race a tortoise. He gives the tortoise a 15 meter head start and then takes off, by the time Achilles reaches 15 meters the tortoise has ran 6, by the time he reaches 6 meters the tortoise has ran 3 ... does Achilles ever beat the tortoise .... of course he does. This type of thinking is flawed.

That's exactly what I'm talking about!! But what if you take apart that electron, well that gives you quarks right, and it just keeps going....
And yeah it's Zeno's paradox, just like the arrow in flight. How is that flawed?

So your god is not all powerful then?

God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

The shroud is a medieval forgery ... scientific testing has proved it. It is a cloth soaked in a special solution to preserve it and is a perfect negative. One hypothesis of who made it linked to Leonardo Divinci. But it's basically wrong from head to toe, evidence has shown the blood was added afterwards to the cloth and that the blood doesn't match the appearance of someone who took the beating Jesus supposedly did. This is one of the earliest attempts at a camera (lost and rediscovered about 500 years later ... why did Divinci have to burn most of his notes and ideas? Also one of his surviving fragments shows he thought of the concept of submarines back in that time ... crazy stuff).

I don't know where you are getting this information at all, but what I've read and seen says nothing about this. The shroud has been scientifically investigated for years and they have not proved any of that. I do agree we don't know that the man is Jesus, we can't prove that. But it's pretty darn close to the story of Jesus' death.

Neither Christians nor Atheists can prove that God doesn't/does exist.

Or the pink unicorn, or fairies, or Leprechauns, or Zeus, or Thor, or Wootan, or Apollo, or Romulus, etc. etc

So? All of these mystical creatures can be compared to objects that we've literally percieved in our reality. God cannot be perceived or comprehended, neither can infinity, neither can we invent a new color for that matter, right?

I've never seen so many Strawmen and unproven assertions in such a little paragraph.

I'm just trying to say this. Everybody wants proof but proof itself is such a finite human idea. Basically, it's impossible to get proof of things we can't comprehend, it defies all logic. Theists and Atheists are in a pickle because neither can prove the other wrong.

About the Einstein quote, he said "...and I'm not sure about the former." Kudos to the individual that proves the universe isn't infinite.

[dionysiou]

i_am_i,  Ill admit i dont care much for sentence structure because the message is more important then how i write it.

Anyway i think its time i say goodbye, so i wanna thank everybody for their input, especially you lonemateria. All you guys got me thinking and answered my questions. Take care everybody, its been a pleasure.

[Kylyssa]

God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

That sounds a lot more like a cat playing with a mouse than some kind of loving God.

If God were to reveal Himself to people they would still have free will - they could choose to worship Him or not.  Deciding to torture someone for eternity if they can't believe in something with no evidence is a bastard's trick.  If God were to reveal Himself and then you chose not to believe in Him, it would be a bit more fair but still pretty bastardly.  Only a psycho parent would act that way.

If a human father never contacted his child - ever - and required the child to love him without question or that parent would come and torture the child in ghastly ways for as long as possible, that parent would not be welcome in any society on earth.  Humans are more fair and loving than this fantasy of a God.    

The fantasy was created by people in a different age, back when it was still allowable to kill a disobedient child.  I can understand why people from a society where it's OK to have slaves, to kill a disobedient child, and to stone people to death for all sorts of offenses might think the Biblical God to be a reasonable fantasy.  With today's morality, I can't understand why anyone would admire and love the Biblical God.  He's vicious and bloodthirsty, he's jealous and sadistic.  The Biblical God tortures His children, and not just with Hell.  He rewards despicably evil behavior such as infanticide and mass murder.

[Ellainix]

God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

This logic is incredibly terrible.

[Sophus]

Fermions and the tachyon.

Thanks Sophus, interesting stuff..I'm gonna read up on this.

Sure thing. Physics is a fun and ever changing subject. What I read on it is usually stripped of the mathematics.  

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the universe being infinite anymore. Originally, I had thought you meant it had either always existed, always will or both.

[G-Roll]

God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

[/quote]

who established that any god is all powerful?
what is this purpose you speak of?

[LoneMateria]

Yeah we might have an "understanding" of infinity as in, aka know what it means. We've got a definition of what it is, and a little symbol too....but we have finite minds, we cannot comprehend infinity.

That is one hell of an assertion.  Please prove this.

Um, I'm pretty sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church still acknowledges Purgatory. Was this declared recently?

Ahh I think I see what happened.  My step-mom is Catholic and I always thought purgatory and limbo were the same thing.  Guess it isn't.  Still in 1999 Pope John Paul II indicated that Purgatory wasn't a place but a state of being.  But limbo got erased in 2007.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5406552.stm
http://www.newsweek.com/id/35211

You know what morality is, this universal knowing of right and wrong we some how magically got from a unicorn that farts blue.

Actually it is a part of being a social animal.  What we consider morality (don't kill your family, don't steal, don't be greedy) is commonly found in the wild amongst a variety of social animals, social animals will often times outcast members who violate these rules.  I've seen videos of of one dog getting hit by a car and another one risking their life to pull its friend to safety.  Morality isn't a human construct but an extension of evolution and group selection.

What is morality not supposed to create? Morality and belief are completely different things. There are bad Christians, and there are Good Atheists. My point was that my belief, my faith, and my character determine my reward.

I'm trying to point out (probably not very well) that this system's main proponent is belief.  What good is belief if you will do the right thing anyway?  All churches know what cuts into their profits.  If I don't need a god or a religion to be good ... and if you are right and I will get rewarded anyway then what is the point of trying to believe in the god concept?  Churches promote that you need faith and belief to be good and you need faith and belief to get into heaven.  You are saying you only need half of that (while it is more to the left) but then what is the point in believing?  There is no point in believing Jesus is your personal lord and savior when you don't need him to go anywhere (though he claims you do in the bible).  

And you do know what it's like to be sorry right? You can't just go out to kill half a dozen people and expect to get forgiven if you truly aren't sorry, but we are not the ones to judge.

There are tons of born again Christians on death row.  So what you seem to be saying here is that only if a killer is truly sorry.  And that is moral?  By this messed up system if your killer is truly sorry he killed 6 children he can be forgiven but if any of the children either didn't believe (or broke one of your god's many commandments) then conceivably that child will go to hell while a child murderer goes to heaven.  And how is this a moral system?

That's exactly what I'm talking about!! But what if you take apart that electron, well that gives you quarks right, and it just keeps going....
And yeah it's Zeno's paradox, just like the arrow in flight. How is that flawed?

I don't think so.  If I remember correctly quarks only come from protons and neutrons (since electrons are something else entirely).  Also we can't say that it keeps going because there is no evidence it goes on forever.  Oh and like I said Achilles will outrun the tortoise.  Next thing you know you will be trying to pull out Schroedinger's Cat as proof for infinite universe.  I view Zeno's paradox the same way I view miracles ... so what if I can't currently explain it (by the way wiki the thing it tells you solutions with links) it is too big of a leap to justify your claim.  

God is all powerful, we've already established this. If you were all powerful and you give people the free will to choose, why would you reveal yourself to them? That would defeat the whole purpose.

We haven't established anything.  And when you say that your god can't do something then it doesn't make him all powerful.  How would me revealing myself to people defeat the purpose of free will?  I'd pop in every once in a while and say, "Hey i'm just stopping by to check on you ... everything good?"  I mean isn't that what he does with miracles anyway?  You are just making a strange excuse to fit with the notion that your god is real.  Do a quick thought experiment and say what if your god isn't real.  That would explain pretty easily why he doesn't reveal himself.  To say that your god is all powerful, all knowing, but refuses to step in and stop someone from raping a small child because it interferes with the rapists free will means your god is a monster neither worthy or deserving of praise or worship.  But if he isn't real that would explain this pretty well.

I don't know where you are getting this information at all, but what I've read and seen says nothing about this. The shroud has been scientifically investigated for years and they have not proved any of that. I do agree we don't know that the man is Jesus, we can't prove that. But it's pretty darn close to the story of Jesus' death.

Maybe you should actually look for information about the shroud that isn't on a catholic website...

So? All of these mystical creatures can be compared to objects that we've literally percieved in our reality. God cannot be perceived or comprehended, neither can infinity, neither can we invent a new color for that matter, right?

How convenient about your god... You seem to be able to comprehend him pretty well since you are able to say what he will do and what he won't....

I'm just trying to say this. Everybody wants proof but proof itself is such a finite human idea. Basically, it's impossible to get proof of things we can't comprehend, it defies all logic. Theists and Atheists are in a pickle because neither can prove the other wrong.

If we were to follow this logic and those assertions science should have given up centuries ago and not even bother with incomprehensible things like electricity, chemistry, calculus, retrograde motion, germs, or medicine.  I'm glad the universe doesn't actually work the way you propose.  Oh and atheists aren't in a pickle because we don't make the claim an invisible sky obsessive, compulsive, murderous, spiteful, hateful being that loves everyone and is able and willing to do anything and is concerned with your sex life... is real.  It's not up to us to prove something doesn't exist ... that is like me saying, "I has a baseballs," and you saying, "prove it," and I hop up and yell, "Prove to me I don't have it".  Not our responsibility, Christians think this is real ... so Christians need to prove it.  Otherwise we have no reason to think it is.

im not telling you to take my experiences as proof for you, thats MY proof. You need to find your own proof. As for me and my friend, we DO believe in the same thing, whatever "many scholars" believe there are "other scholars" who believe otherwise, so theres no point even mentioning that.

... there is no point in mentioning there is archeological evidence for Lord Krishna existing 300-400 years before Jesus... are you serious?  Wow talk about thick.

i_am_i,  Ill admit i dont care much for sentence structure because the message is more important then how i write it.

Anyway i think its time i say goodbye, so i wanna thank everybody for their input, especially you lonemateria. All you guys got me thinking and answered my questions. Take care everybody, its been a pleasure.

Don't leave yet ... I want to figure out how you can just discard actual evidence when it is inconvenient for you.  Not that I want to be an ass it just baffles me.  Maybe you will hop back on and explain to me how you can just discredit actual evidence that your friends gods existed before you and thus yours are based off of his and the other 10 mythological beings I mentioned.  If you do hop back on and have any questions don't hesitate to ask them.

[G-Roll]

You know what morality is, this universal knowing of right and wrong

what is this universal knowing of right and wrong? different nations have different concepts of whats right and whats wrong.
if you get the chance and have HBO watch the show afghan star. its like american idol only in afghanistan. well one contestant was a woman and she didnt win. she didnt win because she danced (kinda.. you could call it that). what she did win is a couple months in hiding and death threats. "she has done wrong. it is improper for a woman to dance and she deserves to die for this." is a quote from the documentary. is this moral to you? im assuming you are going to say no one shouldnt be killed for dancing.
so i dont see how there is a universal knowing of right and wrong.
hell... we cant even decide here in america what is moral/right/wrong.
there are only 2 things i can think of could be considered universal wrongs. that would be killing humans and stealing. yet prisons are pretty full of people who do this....

and LoneMateria i truly enjoyed the above post.