Objectivity and Atheism

[objectivitees]

Guess what? I don't! I'm a Nihilist.

Which is exactly what I said early on when i began to point out that Atheism presupposes Naturalism, therefore all arguments are subjective, relative, and necessarily devolve to Nihilism. The Atheist has no choice but to claim subjective nature of truth, as naturalism is all he's left... and subjectivity is nihilistic at it's core, as you should well know, being a nihilist. (Oh wait... if you know you're a nihilist, you already know you can't know anything, except of course, that you can't know anything!)

[G-Roll]

I don’t find it hard to believe that someone out there believes in no god yet the world was created in unnatural ways.

This is precisely the point G-roll, the moment they try to describe it in "unnatural" ways, their "ways" could accurately be described as 'god', (ontologically speaking with respect to philosophy) and therefore would be inconsistent with their other claim that Atheism is true. There are only two possibilities, the universe's inception was natural, or it was Supernatural.  If your practical application of metaphysics is that there is no god, then you are stuck with naturalism.

its strikes me as funny because i have agreed with most of your point through this thread!!
g-roll said -->

i think sophus answer is great, but wouldnt that be basically worshipping nature?

i know that you have a lot of post coming at you and perhaps it is challenging to organize all the info that comes at you at once, but im basically in agreement... and have been since i entered this discussion.

i would still be surprised (as to answer your challenge) that someone believed the earth was made by aliens yet did not worship those aliens. its to broad a subject for me to think NO ONE has this belief.

bah damn quote fail!!!

[Sophus]

Guess what? I don't! I'm a Nihilist.

Which is exactly what I said early on when i began to point out that Atheism presupposes Naturalism, therefore all arguments are subjective, relative, and necessarily devolve to Nihilism. The Atheist has no choice but to claim subjective nature of truth, as naturalism is all he's left... and subjectivity is nihilistic at it's core, as you should well know, being a nihilist. (Oh wait... if you know you're a nihilist, you already know you can't know anything, except of course, that you can't know anything!)

You're making all the classic misconceptions of Nihilism. It just means we don't know anything with absolute certainty. I prefer to talk of 'reality' than 'truth'. Reality is not subjective. The human mind is simply not capable of knowing anything, therefore I don't have any real beliefs. Yet I live as though I do, de facto (Existentialism).

[objectivitees]

Why can't I just not know?

Because Atheism presupposes a Natural explanation. Now, I'll admit, it's entirely possible to not know that Atheism presupposes naturalism but not that you don't have a belief about how it all happened. I'd even go so far as to admit you don't have certainty about whether your explanation is accurate, which is how you say with a straight face you "don't know".  You do claim to know things. You claim to have a deep understanding of what Atheism is. I doubt seriously you could be a moderator at this forum if you hadn't  studied a bit of philosophy far enough to understand everyone has an explanation of one kind or another. You have one, you are just avoiding it's elucidation, which BTW, is exactly what I predicted you'd do. Thanks for proving my claim.  

[objectivitees]

It just means we don't know anything with absolute certainty. ... The human mind is simply not capable of knowing anything,

These two statements contradict each other. either you know things or you don't. You don't get to have it both ways. If you are nihilist, you can't know that you can't know.

[Whitney]

Why can't I just not know?

Because Atheism presupposes a Natural explanation. Now, I'll admit, it's entirely possible to not know that Atheism presupposes naturalism but not that you don't have a belief about how it all happened. I'd even go so far as to admit you don't have certainty about whether your explanation is accurate, which is how you say with a straight face you "don't know".  You do claim to know things. You claim to have a deep understanding of what Atheism is. I doubt seriously you could be a moderator at this forum if you hadn't  studied a bit of philosophy far enough to understand everyone has an explanation of one kind or another. You have one, you are just avoiding it's elucidation, which BTW, is exactly what I predicted you'd do. Thanks for proving my claim.  

 

You aren't even aware enough of your surroundings to realize I'm the admin of this forum and only keep repeating yourself in hopes that someone will give in....I give up.  I've asked the mods what they think should be done with you.

[objectivitees]

I don’t find it hard to believe that someone out there believes in no god yet the world was created in unnatural ways.

This is precisely the point G-roll, the moment they try to describe it in "unnatural" ways, their "ways" could accurately be described as 'god', (ontologically speaking with respect to philosophy) and therefore would be inconsistent with their other claim that Atheism is true. There are only two possibilities, the universe's inception was natural, or it was Supernatural.  If your practical application of metaphysics is that there is no god, then you are stuck with naturalism.

its strikes me as funny because i have agreed with most of your point through this thread!!
g-roll said -->

i think sophus answer is great, but wouldnt that be basically worshipping nature?

i know that you have a lot of post coming at you and perhaps it is challenging to organize all the info that comes at you at once, but im basically in agreement... and have been since i entered this discussion.

i would still be surprised (as to answer your challenge) that someone believed the earth was made by aliens yet did not worship those aliens. its to broad a subject for me to think NO ONE has this belief.




bah damn quote fail!!!

Wow, you agree with most of my points? Perhaps you could be a bit more overt with your "agreement", or perhaps make corollary arguments in response to the others to help me out?

[Sophus]

It just means we don't know anything with absolute certainty. ... The human mind is simply not capable of knowing anything,

These two statements contradict each other. either you know things or you don't. You don't get to have it both ways. If you are nihilist, you can't know that you can't know.

Exactly. It means I think that human interpretation is fallible, nor can the mind truly know anything with the upmost certainty. Do I believe I know that with the upmost certainty? Of course not.

[objectivitees]

You aren't even aware enough of your surroundings to realize I'm the admin of this forum and only keep repeating yourself in hopes that someone will give in....I give up. I've asked the mods what they think should be done with you.

Wow. You really think your previous threats to ban me didn't make me aware of your Admin status? Please note not everyone here disagrees with all of my claims. I'm not repeating myself because I want to, I'm repeating myself because you don't get what I'm saying. You keep equivocating Atheism with Atheist. That's not my fault. I also noticed you were an admin here because your forum uses the same software as my forum, where I'm Admin. have a nice day, but please, do my the solid of actually quoting my offensive text before you ban me.

[Whitney]

Wow, you agree with most of my points? Perhaps you could be a bit more overt with your "agreement", or perhaps make corollary arguments in response to the others to help me out?

okay....for that I'm going to put you on a 24 hour ban....it's bad enough that you treat everyone else poorly let alone the person who was trying to be nice to you.

[Sophus]

Wow, you agree with most of my points? Perhaps you could be a bit more overt with your "agreement", or perhaps make corollary arguments in response to the others to help me out?

okay....for that I'm going to put you on a 24 hour ban....it's bad enough that you treat everyone else poorly let alone the person who was trying to be nice to you.

Awww... and I was looking forward to his reponse on this one.    Nah, good call though Whitney. Give him time to cool down and maybe he will.

[G-Roll]

Wow, you agree with most of my points? Perhaps you could be a bit more overt with your "agreement", or perhaps make corollary arguments in response to the others to help me out?

LOL fair enough...
i cant argue the nihilist thing. the understanding of nihilism and what makes one a nihilists escapes me.

All I can offer in the defense of your position of atheism requiring naturalism, or be rooted in naturalism is that I know of no atheist belief that doesn’t include naturalism or some form of natural science. I know of no atheist that describes the occurrence of natural events in unnatural/supernatural ways.
In my opinion godless religions replace a deity with nature, so nature then becomes a deity.
To my understanding atheists can and often do believe in other supernatural… things. Like ghosts. But there is some other form of naturalism or of science or what have you right bedside it.

I still say there is most likely a person who fits the criteria of your challenge. But I don’t really know of anyone who actually believes the needed.. beliefs.
Its getting late.

[Whitney]

So, for those that agreed with him....care to explain his argument in a rational calm manner so he can see what is appropriate when he returns?

I still fail to see how atheism automatically requires naturalism because there are atheistic religions.  Obj neglected to provide a definition of atheism that is valid that included anything more than not having a belief in a god.  He simply just kept saying the same thing over and over again and railroading people.

[objectivitees]

I've already made my points, and you couldn't even have the decency to cite the offense. I predicted perfectly that you would never answer my direct questions and you didn't. What I said to G-roll was said in complete sincerity.  I didn't notice he was being "nice" to me, but asking him to make corollary arguments to help is considered being offensive here? You've gotta be kidding. interesting to note though, by pointing out he was the "one person trying to be nice to me", you tacitly admit you were not being nice to me. you'll also note, that the person whom you did cite, didn't take offense, and interpreted my post to him in the humorous vein it was intended. G=roll, have a great time here, they will ban this user name soon enough.

I categorically deny anything I said was done with hostile intent, it's just you being touchy and misinterpreting my style. I guess now you'll ban me permanently. that's ok, I'd rather talk with intellectually honest Atheists over at doubtcast anyway.

[Sophus]

To my understanding atheists can and often do believe in other supernatural… things. Like ghosts. But there is some other form of naturalism or of science or what have you right bedside it.

It's not a deity they're worshipping because it's not a being. There's actually an entire religion based off of the Star Wars force (it's larger than Scientology) that believes only in, well... a force. There's quite a number of "spiritualities" like this (perhaps spiritual is the better word over "religion").

i cant argue the nihilist thing. the understanding of nihilism and what makes one a nihilists escapes me.

I know (not really ). I was really confused by it the first time I learned of it too. In short, I think humans cannot know (in the fullest sense of know - with 100% certainty) what is true. We can have our logical reasoning but our brains simply don't know. That's all. Simpler than it's made out to be.