Savior or Not?

[The Boatman]

Probably the defining belief of a Christian is that Jesus sacrificed himself to save us from our sins. But there are two questions that this raises, which I have not often seen asked.

What kind of sacrifice was this? Jesus is supposedly an immortal being. If he knew that he would be returning to god immediately following his death, then what exactly is it that he suffered? A little bit of mortal pain?

How exactly did this save us from sin? Excuse me if I see a little bit of a leap in logic here. In what way at all is the death of Jesus as a man related to our sins? In fact, if the story goes that we, humans, murdered Jesus, then are we not being rewarded for KILLING the savior?

Any Christians here, I'd love to hear your point of view. Atheists, feel free to throw in some thoughts of your own.

[LoneMateria]

Probably the defining belief of a Christian is that Jesus sacrificed himself to save us from our sins. But there are two questions that this raises, which I have not often seen asked.

What kind of sacrifice was this? Jesus is supposedly an immortal being. If he knew that he would be returning to god immediately following his death, then what exactly is it that he suffered? A little bit of mortal pain?

How exactly did this save us from sin? Excuse me if I see a little bit of a leap in logic here. In what way at all is the death of Jesus as a man related to our sins? In fact, if the story goes that we, humans, murdered Jesus, then are we not being rewarded for KILLING the savior?

Any Christians here, I'd love to hear your point of view. Atheists, feel free to throw in some thoughts of your own.

I really recommend you go and watch some episodes of The Atheist Experience or The Non-Prophets, both links are in my signature.  These questions are ones often weaseled out of by Christians or conversation killers.  

First off I say it was no sacrifice.  When Jesus dies he gets to be God again (for people who believe Jesus was God) how exactly is that a sacrifice?  The whole sacrifice is illogical, because what Christians will say (not as bluntly) is that Jesus sacrificed himself, to himself, to make a loophole in a rule he created (so people can get into heaven because Adam and Eve first sinned and somehow that is preventing people to get into heaven).

So basically to reiterate in bluntness.  Jesus sacrificed himself, to himself, to create a loophole in the rules that he made, because a rib women was talked into eating from a magical tree by a talking snake, 6-10 thousands years ago.   Taadaa we can go to heaven now!  And Christians wonder why we are atheists.

[The Boatman]

Probably the defining belief of a Christian is that Jesus sacrificed himself to save us from our sins. But there are two questions that this raises, which I have not often seen asked.

What kind of sacrifice was this? Jesus is supposedly an immortal being. If he knew that he would be returning to god immediately following his death, then what exactly is it that he suffered? A little bit of mortal pain?

How exactly did this save us from sin? Excuse me if I see a little bit of a leap in logic here. In what way at all is the death of Jesus as a man related to our sins? In fact, if the story goes that we, humans, murdered Jesus, then are we not being rewarded for KILLING the savior?

Any Christians here, I'd love to hear your point of view. Atheists, feel free to throw in some thoughts of your own.

There's also another huge contradiction that I forgot to point out. Have we been saved? The Christians claim that we have been saved by sin, and then at the same time tell so many of us that we're going to hell because we sin. And it's not like the world is now free from problems. There's still sin, by the Christian definition of the word.

I think I've heard it said that Jesus made it so we could get into heaven. If that's truly the case, then what about all the people who came before Jesus? Were they basically doomed to hell, regardless of the life they led?

[LoneMateria]

Yup lots of problems with their story.  One claim that Christians tend to make is that Jesus dying was the only way for God to forgive us.  To which I ask, Why is blood/human sacrifice the only way things could get fixed?  But I hear some retorts from Christians who I think are just making stuff up on the fly.  But regardless the implications of this story differ from Christian sect to sect.  In my area (bible belt) I typically hear what I put forward that Jesus died to "forgive" original sin then after these thousands of year of people getting tortured in hell Jesus pops up and takes them to heaven.  Thats the asinine version I get.

There is another one I hear and that is Jesus died so man can have the chance to go to heaven.  Which again the previous questions you ask are valid ones and they too get different answers.  I've had a Christian tell me that before Jesus everyone went to heaven to which I ask, "Why did Jesus come down and fuck it up?", then there is they went to hell but its okay its only temporary, to which I say, "So you are saying torture is okay because its temporary?  So if I decide to torture you it would be okay because it would end?"  Honestly if you wanted answers to poke a hole in you should post these questions on a Christian forum.  Otherwise you will probably just find people who agree with you here.  We have a small hand full of theists but I don't know if they will come near this thread .

[The Boatman]

Yup lots of problems with their story.  One claim that Christians tend to make is that Jesus dying was the only way for God to forgive us.  To which I ask, Why is blood/human sacrifice the only way things could get fixed?  But I hear some retorts from Christians who I think are just making stuff up on the fly.  But regardless the implications of this story differ from Christian sect to sect.  In my area (bible belt) I typically hear what I put forward that Jesus died to "forgive" original sin then after these thousands of year of people getting tortured in hell Jesus pops up and takes them to heaven.  Thats the asinine version I get.

There is another one I hear and that is Jesus died so man can have the chance to go to heaven.  Which again the previous questions you ask are valid ones and they too get different answers.  I've had a Christian tell me that before Jesus everyone went to heaven to which I ask, "Why did Jesus come down and fuck it up?", then there is they went to hell but its okay its only temporary, to which I say, "So you are saying torture is okay because its temporary?  So if I decide to torture you it would be okay because it would end?"  Honestly if you wanted answers to poke a hole in you should post these questions on a Christian forum.  Otherwise you will probably just find people who agree with you here.  We have a small hand full of theists but I don't know if they will come near this thread

[Mark L Holland]

Jesus Saves no one in no way and no how.  While the public teachings of Jesus before the Jews are some good life teachings.  Jesus was a man, I believe a man of God a teacher of God but that is as far as it goes.  Jesus was sentenced to death for being a insurrectionist his death on the cross was no different and no more painful then the deaths of tens of thousands that were crucified before and after his death.  There is no evidence that Jesus was nailed to the cross.

  There exists only one bone that has ever been found with a Roman nail through it.  The vast majority of crucifixions the people were tied to the cross with rope.  People tied to the cross took longer to die then people nailed to the cross.  And the crucifixion was not just a method of execution put a method of torture and tying someone to the cross prolonged the torture while the person died.  If I remember right a healthy person could survive for up to a week if given water.  About three days without water.

  But back to the topic, Jesus saves no one no how and no way.
 

[LoneMateria]

Jesus Saves no one in no way and no how.  While the public teachings of Jesus before the Jews are some good life teachings.  Jesus was a man, I believe a man of God a teacher of God but that is as far as it goes.  Jesus was sentenced to death for being a insurrectionist his death on the cross was no different and no more painful then the deaths of tens of thousands that were crucified before and after his death.  There is no evidence that Jesus was nailed to the cross.

  There exists only one bone that has ever been found with a Roman nail through it.  The vast majority of crucifixions the people were tied to the cross with rope.  People tied to the cross took longer to die then people nailed to the cross.  And the crucifixion was not just a method of execution put a method of torture and tying someone to the cross prolonged the torture while the person died.  If I remember right a healthy person could survive for up to a week if given water.  About three days without water.

  But back to the topic, Jesus saves no one no how and no way.
 

I couldn't agree with you more.  I don't know who said it but if Jesus died 30 years ago Catholics would walk around with little electric chairs around their necks.  Jesus was a convicted criminal who had some devoted followers.  He met his criminal end.

[theTwiz]

This was about to get posted in the Atheist pictures thread, but I found this thread instead.

[attachment=0:z5lwfjo9]1252452414876.jpg[/attachment:z5lwfjo9]

[Mark L Holland]

To the twiz

  Good one