Christians and Homosexuality

[The Boatman]

To LoneMateria

  Of course I am a Theist and blame the followers of a religion not the religion itself.  There are many non Christian Theist beliefs out there that do not cause trouble who do not try to persecute others or do not attempt to prove their superiority over others.  A religious belief is nothing more then an idea or concept which cannot be good or evil by itself.  A Belief is dangerous or good depending on the people who hold that belief and how they apply those beliefs in the real world.

  Until Prop. 8 I had little problems with the Mormons or their beliefs because generally they held their beliefs as valid within their cult and did not attempt to apply their beliefs outside of their cult.  Prop 8 of course changed that.  They actually fought to enforce their religious beliefs against people outside of their cult and became no different then the Catholics, Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.  But it is not their religious beliefs that do the damage the damage is done by how they apply those beliefs

  When was the last time you had a problem with a Quaker or Amish or Friend, Christian.  These are Christians who live their religion as it should be lived.  When was the last time you had a religious problem with a Wiccan, Pagan or Witch.  It is not Religion or religious beliefs that is the problem or threat it is the followers of a religious belief and how they apply those beliefs in the real world.  I know it might be splitting hairs but as I said I am a Theist.

  Hard core Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are actually a small number as compared to the whole of Christianity.  Even in the Catholic Religion you have your Sunday Catholics who are only religeous on Sundays, you have Catholics who follow the doctrine only up to the point of where they become a problem, and then you have the zealots.  Zealots are the minority of the Christian religion.
 

You talk about Sunday Catholics and Joe Blow Christians all the time. You suggest that that the cause for such bigotry as the passage of proposition eight is primarily the ability of evangelicals and fundamentalists to rally Christians.

But you've provided no evidence, you simply state your notions as fact, and consider them evidence of themselves.

Take the average Christian you keep referring to. You suggest that they are merely following the example of the extremists. But there are those who are considered extremists on both sides. There are activists for gays, just as there are evangelicals doing activism for Christianity. So how does the average Christian chose?

If they don't know somebody gay, if it's never affected their lives, then they have no personal reasons to vote one way or the other. But they are Christian, so that's something that they can associate with, and the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. So they vote along that line.

[LoneMateria]

To LoneMateria

  Of course I am a Theist and blame the followers of a religion not the religion itself.  There are many non Christian Theist beliefs out there that do not cause trouble who do not try to persecute others or do not attempt to prove their superiority over others.  A religious belief is nothing more then an idea or concept which cannot be good or evil by itself.  A Belief is dangerous or good depending on the people who hold that belief and how they apply those beliefs in the real world.

So because you are a theist you are automatically part of a religion?  Let's not get these two things confused.  One can believe in God all they want, it's when these people organize and form religion there can be problems.  Being a theist doesn't mean you are an automatically divisive person, I don't over generalize like that.  It is the nature of Religion (not necessarily theists) that forms that divisive thought process.  Especially when these people in these religions (for the most part) feel that they will be rewarded for their thoughts mainly, actions secondary and everyone who doesn't think like them will either be tortured forever or will pop out of existence.  (Though this thought process is shifting it is still the dominant one by Catholics, Protestants, Fundamentalists, Evangelicals, etc. the majority of the United States [population wise]).

Until Prop. 8 I had little problems with the Mormons or their beliefs because generally they held their beliefs as valid within their cult and did not attempt to apply their beliefs outside of their cult.  Prop 8 of course changed that.  They actually fought to enforce their religious beliefs against people outside of their cult and became no different then the Catholics, Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.  But it is not their religious beliefs that do the damage the damage is done by how they apply those beliefs

It took you until Prop. 8?  I had a problem with the Mormons since they've been in charge of Boy Scouts.  I've already conceded that the Fundamentalists / Evangelicals take the most action, however like I've said it stems from religious belief which I think I will cover later in your post (if not remind me)

When was the last time you had a problem with a Quaker or Amish or Friend, Christian.  These are Christians who live their religion as it should be lived.  When was the last time you had a religious problem with a Wiccan, Pagan or Witch.  It is not Religion or religious beliefs that is the problem or threat it is the followers of a religious belief and how they apply those beliefs in the real world.  I know it might be splitting hairs but as I said I am a Theist.

Actually I do have a problem with the Amish (i'm not sure if the quakers do the same thing).  Amish people have the right to remove their children from school on religious grounds once they've reached like 2nd or 3rd grade.  They are removed from school and they are indoctrinated into their Amish community where they lose the choice to do what they want when they are older.  No one in an Amish community has higher then a 3rd grade education and the common defense is that, "The Amish community has a better way of life and they should be allowed to raise their children in their way of life." To which I say bullshit, if the Amish life was better then why aren't people flocking to join Amish communities?  They are indoctrinating their kids and forcing them into their way of life, and the kids have no choice in the matter, and this is protected under freedom of religion .... It's just an issue that pisses me off.

Hard core Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are actually a small number as compared to the whole of Christianity.  Even in the Catholic Religion you have your Sunday Catholics who are only religeous on Sundays, you have Catholics who follow the doctrine only up to the point of where they become a problem, and then you have the zealots.  Zealots are the minority of the Christian religion.
 

Roughly 1/3 of americans identify themselves as Evangelical Christians ...

I honestly don't know much about Zealots so I don't know how low of a minority they are.

[Mark L Holland]

To The Boatman

  All I can say is watch the news or do internet searches for Evangelical and Homosexuals or Abortions.  I have yet to see or read about an anti gay or anti abortion protest where Evangelical or Fundamentalist is not mentioned.  As for the average Christians or Joe Blow Christians.  They are usually torn in their beliefs, they know the teachings of Jesus about Judge Not, Scorn Not, Do not sit in the seat of Judgment and the teachings of the Bible which is kill anyone who looks at you cross eyed.

  The average Christian if left alone will usually side with the teachings of Jesus, the Judge Not, if you judge another you will be judged.  The average Christian will side with Jesus’ teachings if left to their on judgment.  It is the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists and now the Mormons who will whip up religious fervor and push the average, Joe Blow Christians into a religious frenzy so that they forget the teachings of Jesus and focus on whatever item the Fundamentalists or Evangelicals or Mormons are attacking.

  The Christian assassins who have blown up abortion clinics or sniped abortion doctors were Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.  If you could show me any violent event that was religion based that was not related to Evangelicals or Fundamentalists I would appreciate it.  A group called Military Religious Freedom Foundation that recently filed a law suit on behalf of an atheist soldier said that the majority of their members are Christians who fear the Evangelical influence in the military.

  You said that I say things as being fact without presenting the evidence to support such claims.  You may be right I base my comments upon personal experience and knowledge.  I read, listen to and expose myself to many sources of information.  My personal experience is that for the most part the average Christian will more likely follow the teachings of Jesus then the teachings of the bible.

  As prop 8 in California showed, a group of people (black Christians) who for the most part reject discrimination and persecution of people.  Did a 180 degree turn in their beliefs because the Mormon church expended hundreds of millions of dollars pushing the Evangelical and Fundamentalist point of view.  It was an extremist group of Christians who were able to turn moderate Christians to their view point.
 

[curiosityandthecat]

Until Prop. 8 I had little problems with the Mormons or their beliefs because generally they held their beliefs as valid within their cult and did not attempt to apply their beliefs outside of their cult.  Prop 8 of course changed that.  They actually fought to enforce their religious beliefs against people outside of their cult and became no different then the Catholics, Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.

I like you.  

[theTwiz]

I haven't read a single post after the OP, so I'm responding only to that.

It's because most Christians don't actually believe in what the Bible says, they believe what their pastor/church says and assume it's in the bible.  Their pastor/church makes a big deal out of it, so they believe it is a big deal as well.

In other words: Dogma.

[Whitney]

Does anybody want to speculate as to why?

They just don't like the idea of two guys having sex.  They assume if they don't like it and wouldn't like it (or would like it too much) that no one else should be free to do what they want.

[Mark L Holland]

To curiosityandthecat

  Why thank you.  :bananacolor:

[Whitney]

To curiosityandthecat
  And yet the number one fantasy among most men is to watch girl on girl sex.  

I know, that's why I said two guys above...

Most people seem to be turned off by the idea of two men together and that's what the conservatives tend to think of when they picture a gay couple.  This is evidenced by the fact that most who voice their opinion against homosexuality follow it by a comment that they don't want men hitting on them.  The women against homosexuality tend to also just simply be prudes that dislike pretty much all forms of sex.

[SSY]

Well it certainly is convenient, the opposition to homosexuality is from another source (most likely due to fear of something different, compounded by a lack of exposure to these things), the bible tying in with this is just good luck on their part. If the Bible said it was fine, they would likely find some other reason to rail against manlove (they really don't seem to mind lesbians). It is clearly evidenced by the other rules they are willing to ignore, to ascribe allegorical nature to, or to dismiss them as "written for a different time", yet they harp on about this.

[Christy1981]

There probably too many reason's for this animosity to count; fear of non-conformity, remnents of medievel philospohy, plain old macho posturing... Undoubtably it relates to Christianity's similar attitudes towards women. I imagine most of the reasons are the same for the other abrahamic religeons.

I did read a rather interesting theory that the Christian Right's hostility towards homosexuals was partly economic in nature; A single male providing for a wife and family is easy to control- Take away his job and his family starve, he is ultimately dependent on the will of his superiors. Where as gay men, percieved by the Christian right as mostly single non-manogamous males have the potential to be more financially and politically independant. I'm not sure it holds up in practice but its an interesting idea.  

[Traveler]

I think there might be another factor at work, in addition to many that have already been mentioned. I'm reading a book about sexuality and the church. It's mostly based off catholic history, but plenty of the men they mentioned are big wigs in other denomination's history. There were a bunch of sexually repressed men who altered christianity to be very unforgiving of any sex that didn't result in a child. These guys were so screwed up that they even were against sex within a marriage, unless it led to a baby. Garbage about "wasted seed", for instance. So personal gratification, sex between men, or between women, sex just for fun ... all were a huge no-no. It became "holy" to refrain, to control these animal lusts, and they even went so far as to say that even in making babies, you shouldn't enjoy yourself. Basically they were a bunch of perverted, repressed a-holes who had to force their repressive ways onto everyone else. We're still paying the price for these morons' hatred of a natural act.

The book is called Eunuchs For The Kingdom of Heaven, by Uta Ranke-Heineman.