Christians and Homosexuality

[The Boatman]

It is a fact that the bible contains quotes opposing homosexual relations. These quotes appear in both the Old Testament and New Testament, in Leviticus and Romans.

What has always surprised me, however, is the lengths to which Christians will go to oppose homosexuality. Take, for example, the infamous Westboro Baptist Church. They will go as far as to say that god kills American soldiers because they believe that this country enables homosexuals.

It wouldn't surprise me if, when questioned, a Christian would state that they were opposed to homosexual relations. It does surprise me, though, how actively they pursue the topic. Opposing homosexuality is not one of the central tenants of the bible, appearing only in two, maybe three places, and yet it has become a central tenant of conservative Christians.

Does anybody want to speculate as to why?

[larstheviking]

Being one of "little faith" I would have to say that the active opposition comes not from trying to actively follow each and every rule in the bible, like keeping the sabbath holy and such, but instead from a fear of people who are different.  Their bitter hatred and penchant for making a battle of how homosexuals live their lives is more homophobia than strong faith.

[Reginus]

I would say that one of the biggest reasons is due to the fact that the vast majority of Christians can't emphasize with homosexuals. If someone has committed a sin like, say, not forgiving someone, most Christians will think something like "well, I feel for you bro. There was one time when...." and it turns out that there was one time when someone did something to the Christian and he found it impossible to forgive the person.

However, with homosexuality this just doesn't happen. Bob sees that John is in a homosexual relationship. Bob says "John, homosexuality is bad. Stop being homo." When this doesn't happen, Bob doesn't understand why John doesn't stop sinning.

Bob might think to himself "well, I must not be as much of a sinner as John." He feels proud and starts to get "life" from judging and feeling better than John. And it goes all downhill from there.

[larstheviking]

I agree on the topic of judging and feeling superior. Many people sadly get off on judging others to be inferior on the basis of characteristics they can not control. In the worst cases, hatred of homosexuals is often spurred by homosexual thoughts in the person who claims to hate it as a sinful action. Many megachurch pastors have been exposed as secretly homosexual, after years of preaching hellfire and judgment on "sinful" people.

[The Boatman]

Being one of "little faith" I would have to say that the active opposition comes not from trying to actively follow each and every rule in the bible, like keeping the sabbath holy and such, but instead from a fear of people who are different.  Their bitter hatred and penchant for making a battle of how homosexuals live their lives is more homophobia than strong faith.

I would certainly agree that that's at least one of the factors involved.

I would say that one of the biggest reasons is due to the fact that the vast majority of Christians can't emphasize with homosexuals. If someone has committed a sin like, say, not forgiving someone, most Christians will think something like "well, I feel for you bro. There was one time when...." and it turns out that there was one time when someone did something to the Christian and he found it impossible to forgive the person.

However, with homosexuality this just doesn't happen. Bob sees that John is in a homosexual relationship. Bob says "John, homosexuality is bad. Stop being homo." When this doesn't happen, Bob doesn't understand why John doesn't stop sinning.

Bob might think to himself "well, I must not be as much of a sinner as John." He feels proud and starts to get "life" from judging and feeling better than John. And it goes all downhill from there.

Do you think that lacking the ability to empathize with gays would be enough to create such strong hatred as can be seen in the Westboro Baptist Church? Here's a link to their homepage, check it out: http://www.godhatesfags.com/

I'm also going to link you to a video of compiled clips of the Westboro Baptist Church. At the beginning is the part which I consider the most important. It shows very young children talking about gays using the word fag and calling us beasts, and saying that we will go to hell forever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlVZNxa8qpU

I think that this is the most important because I doubt that these children have ever met somebody gay. There is, in fact, a part around 4:45 in which one of the WBC children reveals that he does not even know what the word "fag" means. If you watch, it's almost certain that these children have been brainwashed into their hatred. The same is probably true of all Christians who have come to accept this as a central part of their religion and their religion's politics, though it may be better referred to as indoctrination for most.

[Mark L Holland]

The mistake that people make is in assuming that the religious outcry has anything to do with religious beliefs.  The biggest opposition to Gays or Abortions come from the Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians.  The average joe blow christian tends to mind their own business.  The Evangelicals and Fundamentalists want to exert power and control over others.  For the most part they cannot rally the majority of joe blow Christians as a voting force over the more common sins that a lot of them are guilty of.

  For instense if the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists attempted to outlaw divorce which is forbidden by Jesus the average joe blow christian would simply look at them funny and shake their heads because divorce tends to be rampant among christian and non christian alike.  The joe blow christian is not going to condemn a man or women who is divorced because a lot of the joe blow Christians have been divorced at one time or another.  So the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who wish to exert their authority and power must find subjects that they can rally the joe blow Christians to.

  Abortion and Homosexuality and War are the three things that the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals can whip the joe blow Christians into feeding frenzies over.  I used to have a lot of respect for black Christians.  I enjoy their services, they have some damn good choirs and because of their history they tend to be reluctant to persecute or judge or discriminate against others.

  A Good example of this was in Alanta, GA where the city past some anti Gay laws, within a year the black Christians had brought to bear enough political force to have the laws overturned.  And the stated reason for this was that they knew first hand what discrimination is and what damage it can cause, and that discriminating against any group was wrong.

  Unfortunately I also lost a lot of respect for black Christians in CA because the Fundamentalist and Evangelical and Morman Christians were able to whip the black Christians in CA into a feeding frenzy that allowed Prop. 8 to pass, for this I cannot forgive them in this life.  But make no mistake the Evangelicals and Fundamentalist do not do this for religious reasons.  They do this to exert power and control over others, the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals especially consider themselves the elite of the Christians and as such are allowed to do anything.

  There is a Christian sect. in Washington where the Evangelical senators and representatives stay.  This sect has been reported to believe that if one of it’s members goes to a leader and says I have had sex with several minor girls, the leader would tell the senator or representative not to worry about it.  That they are the elite of Jesus and because they are the elite of Jesus, they cannot commit sin because for the elite there is no sin.

  Anything or any subject that the Fundamentalists or Evangelicals can rally the joe blow Christians to is where you will see the heated and forcefull debates.  Joe blow Christians for the most part are not the problem.  It is the Evangelicals and Fundamentists who know how to whip the peasants into feeding frenzies that are the problem.  
 

[The Boatman]

The mistake that people make is in assuming that the religious outcry has anything to do with religious beliefs.  The biggest opposition to Gays or Abortions come from the Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians.  The average joe blow christian tends to mind their own business.  The Evangelicals and Fundamentalists want to exert power and control over others.  For the most part they cannot rally the majority of joe blow Christians as a voting force over the more common sins that a lot of them are guilty of.

  For instense if the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists attempted to outlaw divorce which is forbidden by Jesus the average joe blow christian would simply look at them funny and shake their heads because divorce tends to be rampant among christian and non christian alike.  The joe blow christian is not going to condemn a man or women who is divorced because a lot of the joe blow Christians have been divorced at one time or another.  So the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists who wish to exert their authority and power must find subjects that they can rally the joe blow Christians to.

  Abortion and Homosexuality and War are the three things that the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals can whip the joe blow Christians into feeding frenzies over.  I used to have a lot of respect for black Christians.  I enjoy their services, they have some damn good choirs and because of their history they tend to be reluctant to persecute or judge or discriminate against others.

  A Good example of this was in Alanta, GA where the city past some anti Gay laws, within a year the black Christians had brought to bear enough political force to have the laws overturned.  And the stated reason for this was that they knew first hand what discrimination is and what damage it can cause, and that discriminating against any group was wrong.

  Unfortunately I also lost a lot of respect for black Christians in CA because the Fundamentalist and Evangelical and Morman Christians were able to whip the black Christians in CA into a feeding frenzy that allowed Prop. 8 to pass, for this I cannot forgive them in this life.  But make no mistake the Evangelicals and Fundamentalist do not do this for religious reasons.  They do this to exert power and control over others, the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals especially consider themselves the elite of the Christians and as such are allowed to do anything.

  There is a Christian sect. in Washington where the Evangelical senators and representatives stay.  This sect has been reported to believe that if one of it’s members goes to a leader and says I have had sex with several minor girls, the leader would tell the senator or representative not to worry about it.  That they are the elite of Jesus and because they are the elite of Jesus, they cannot commit sin because for the elite there is no sin.

  Anything or any subject that the Fundamentalists or Evangelicals can rally the joe blow Christians to is where you will see the heated and forcefull debates.  Joe blow Christians for the most part are not the problem.  It is the Evangelicals and Fundamentists who know how to whip the peasants into feeding frenzies that are the problem.  
 

I disagree, for the most part. You say that evangelicals and fundamentalists incite this war against homosexuality, but is there really any evidence to that statement?

You almost even provided evidence against your own argument. Black Christians have every reason to vote in favor of gay marriage, considering their history of persecution as blacks, and yet the majority of them voted for proposition eight. Does it really seem likely that they were convinced to go against that past simply because people of a different denomination, the evangelicals, were arguing against gay marriage?

[Mark L Holland]

To the Boatman

  That is the point that I am making the Joe Blow christian normally is not a problem, but the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists can whip up a religious fervor that can cause Joe Blow christian to disregard his/her normal beliefs into a religious frenzy in which they fall into line with the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals.  That is the danger of these groups.

  Think of it this way, during the 60’s there were many college and university students who were against the Vietnam war.  The government not liking the opposition attempted to make the anti war protesters look un-American.  So they infiltrated the protest groups with agents whoes job it was to turn non violent protests into violent protests.  So instead of young concerned Americans protesting the war they were now communist sympathizers and anti Americans.

  This is the same thing that the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals do.  They incite people who normally would not be interested in legislating their beliefs and incite them to riot, they whip them up into such a religious frenzy that they will do something that normally they would not do.  Such as Prop. 8
 :bananacolor:

[The Boatman]

What I meant in my post was that you have not provided any evidence for the two statements below.

That is the point that I am making the Joe Blow christian normally is not a problem, but the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists can whip up a religious fervor that can cause Joe Blow christian to disregard his/her normal beliefs into a religious frenzy in which they fall into line with the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals.  That is the danger of these groups.

This is the same thing that the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals do.  They incite people who normally would not be interested in legislating their beliefs and incite them to riot, they whip them up into such a religious frenzy that they will do something that normally they would not do.  Such as Prop. 8

I don't agree with you. You haven't provided any evidence.

I don't find it likely that one denomination of Christians will vote based on the angry ranting of another denomination.

[G-Roll]

I don't find it likely that one denomination of Christians will vote based on the angry ranting of another denomination.

i kind of agree. people get stuck in their ways and different sects have different preachings. for example the Episcopal church will marry gay people and even ordain them. whereas Southern Baptist doesnt do anything with them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... osexuality if you believe in wiki pedia they have a pretty chart with the general leanings of different sects stance on gays.
however i feel that a bigot is a bigot, and bigots stick together. people will leave a church if they disagree with what a preacher says. they then seek out a new church and quite possibly a new sect to fit in with. its all about the fit. so if i where a bigot and found out my fellow Episcopal churches had gay preachers, i would most likely leave and join another sect.

i want to know when all this "god hates fags" will turn into a hate crime. i know its tricky because of freedom of speech, but is it not blatant discrimination?

[curiosityandthecat]

Gay Christians? Really?

[Mark L Holland]

To Boatman

  Abortion did not become a national issue until the Poopie declared it murder.  Most of the other christian cults jumped onto the band wagon after that.  And if you have bothered to watch the news on a regular basis the loudest protests and more organized protests against Abortion and Homosexuals are done by Evangelicals.
 

[LoneMateria]

To Boatman

  Abortion did not become a national issue until the Poopie declared it murder.  Most of the other christian cults jumped onto the band wagon after that.  And if you have bothered to watch the news on a regular basis the loudest protests and more organized protests against Abortion and Homosexuals are done by Evangelicals.
 

I've kept quiet about this since I thought someone else would mention it, but I was wrong.  Is it Evangelicals/Fundamentalists fault or is it religions fault?  Religion is of a divisive nature.  It perpetuates an US vs THEM scenario.  Those groups who don't like homosexuals are that way because they see it as US and THEM thing.  Homosexuality isn't the norm and like every other minority group has had to fight for recognition (as have blacks, hispanics, Irish, Atheists and any other group that was ever a minority).  I will grant you that the groups that takes on this change are the Fundamentalists and Evangelicals primarily.  However many groups of people who aren't associated with them jump on the band wagon because that divisiveness is rooted in the foundation of their own belief system.  The Bible becomes an instrument of convenience where one who has run out of justification for their personal bigotry turns to find justification.  That bigotry turns into hatred and then you have assholes like Fred Phelps who picket gay peoples funerals.  The question that needs to be asked is, does this divisiveness stem from these sects of this religion or from the religion itself?  I think it's from the religion itself, those the people you mention are asshats.

[The Boatman]

And besides which, I'd like to point out that to say evangelicals and fundamentalists are the cause of this bigotry is to name quite a large portion of the Christian community. That even includes the entire collection of Catholics.

[Mark L Holland]

To LoneMateria

  Of course I am a Theist and blame the followers of a religion not the religion itself.  There are many non Christian Theist beliefs out there that do not cause trouble who do not try to persecute others or do not attempt to prove their superiority over others.  A religious belief is nothing more then an idea or concept which cannot be good or evil by itself.  A Belief is dangerous or good depending on the people who hold that belief and how they apply those beliefs in the real world.

  Until Prop. 8 I had little problems with the Mormons or their beliefs because generally they held their beliefs as valid within their cult and did not attempt to apply their beliefs outside of their cult.  Prop 8 of course changed that.  They actually fought to enforce their religious beliefs against people outside of their cult and became no different then the Catholics, Evangelicals or Fundamentalists.  But it is not their religious beliefs that do the damage the damage is done by how they apply those beliefs

  When was the last time you had a problem with a Quaker or Amish or Friend, Christian.  These are Christians who live their religion as it should be lived.  When was the last time you had a religious problem with a Wiccan, Pagan or Witch.  It is not Religion or religious beliefs that is the problem or threat it is the followers of a religious belief and how they apply those beliefs in the real world.  I know it might be splitting hairs but as I said I am a Theist.

  Hard core Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are actually a small number as compared to the whole of Christianity.  Even in the Catholic Religion you have your Sunday Catholics who are only religeous on Sundays, you have Catholics who follow the doctrine only up to the point of where they become a problem, and then you have the zealots.  Zealots are the minority of the Christian religion.