Re: the holy Quran and the creation of universe

[Mark L Holland]

To some light pls

  Sorry but nothing you quote from the Torah can prove the existence of God or Gods.  The only thing that can prove the existence of God or Gods is if God or Gods give the evidences and proofs needed for one or everyone to know of their existence
 

[some light plz]

I notice that you didn't bother to take note of or reply in any way to my previous response to your original post, so I expect to receive the same silence again.  You really should work on your technique.  Have you ever heard the phrase, "qui tacet consentit" (silence implies consent)?  I'm not saying that you agree with my answer, but by not replying, you make it seem like maybe you don't have any reasonable (or even unreasonable) way to respond.  Onward...

You may not be aware of the fact that a good percentage of the Earth is iron.  Most of it is under our feet, not "sent down."  There was no "down" for iron to be sent to until the planet was formed, and as I said, a certain percentage of the material that accumulated to form the planet was iron.  So that iron, in reality, was never "sent down."  The fact that this iron originated inside stars which lived and died before this solar system even came into existence is not even hinted at in the line from your holy book which you quote.  Once the Earth formed, the only iron which has come from the sky has been in the form of meteorites, which were in fact a source of relatively easily accessible iron during the the Iron Age.  But no deity needed to tell your prophet about that.  People knew about meteoric iron for thousands of years before he was born.  Pull the other one.

To Recusant
your first comment
You brought your sources like I did  . also you announced your judgment when you said directly " NO " . which means :You refused my comment completely , even the sources .
But the doubting fills your heart about your information . so you sent this note " silence implies consent " ! to see my response .
there is a big difference between the discusser and the denier . please read the verse  again and again . you are in a valley and people in a valley
at last  :let the readers Judge .

your second comment  :
the verse speaks about Iron as an external metal comes from space .
did any one say this  before prophet Mohammad  ?
and your objection not about Iron … we both agreed that iron came from space after stars explosion " Dr. Harun yahya " mentioned that at the link . but your objection on the past verb " sent " because this verb needs an object " the sender " who is Allah .
also you did not bring any new information , once again :
did any one say  : " the iron has been sent down or came down " before prophet Mohammad  ?
and thanks for this valuable information about iron... you did not add anything .

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therefore you try hard to avoid As far as possible Allah  . because if you agreed with my posts . means you agreed that Allah is existent . and this destroy your belief
keep on objections , it will not serve you

[Squid]

...Dr. Harun yahya

Just a quick note, to my knowledge Oktar does not hold a doctorate in anything and Harun Yahya is a pen name.

[Recusant]

To Recusant
your first comment
You brought your sources like I did  . also you announced your judgment when you said directly " NO " . which means :You refused my comment completely , even the sources .
But the doubting fills your heart about your information . so you sent this note " silence implies consent " ! to see my response .
there is a big difference between the discusser and the denier . please read the verse  again and again . you are in a valley and people in a valley
at last  :let the readers Judge .

Apparently you did not actually read my reply to your original post, or are purposely ignoring what I said.  I specifically answered your contention that the early universe was comprised of "smoke."  It was not, thus my "No."  Your sources, as I pointed out in my reply, are all talking about cosmic dust.  Cosmic dust did not exist in the early eras of the universe.  I can read the verses you present for the rest of my life, and they still will not be relevant to the actual origin of the universe.  As you can see, I did read your sources, before I posted my first reply.  I wonder if you did the same with the sources which I provided?

your second comment  :
the verse speaks about Iron as an external metal comes from space .
did any one say this  before prophet Mohammad  ?
and your objection not about Iron … we both agreed that iron came from space after stars explosion " Dr. Harun yahya " mentioned that at the link . but your objection on the past verb " sent " because this verb needs an object " the sender " who is Allah .
also you did not bring any new information , once again :
did any one say  : " the iron has been sent down or came down " before prophet Mohammad  ?
and thanks for this valuable information about iron... you did not add anything .

  All of this planet, other than helium, hydrogen, beryllium and lithium, originated inside stars.  Your prophet speaks only of iron, however.  Why is that? I would suggest that your prophet was speaking about meteoric iron, which as I said, was known well before his birth.  Why would he have singled out iron as something "sent down," as opposed to copper, gold, silver, etc. otherwise?

therefore you try hard to avoid As far as possible Allah  . because if you agreed with my posts . means you agreed that Allah is existent . and this destroy your belief
keep on objections , it will not serve you

You brought your ideas about your holy book here.  You obviously want some response from those who do not agree with those ideas, otherwise you would be posting them in an Islamic website.  I have provided such response.  I do not "try hard to avoid As far as possible Allah," because I simply do not believe he exists.  It takes no effort to avoid that which does not exist.  I have put a bit of effort into providing replies which you have sought out by coming here, nothing more and nothing less.

[i_am_i]

the verse speaks about Iron as an external metal comes from space .
did any one say this  before prophet Mohammad  ?
and your objection not about Iron … we both agreed that iron came from space after stars explosion " Dr. Harun yahya " mentioned that at the link . but your objection on the past verb " sent " because this verb needs an object " the sender " who is Allah .
also you did not bring any new information , once again :
did any one say  : " the iron has been sent down or came down " before prophet Mohammad  ?
and thanks for this valuable information about iron... you did not add anything .

-----------------------------------

therefore you try hard to avoid As far as possible Allah  . because if you agreed with my posts . means you agreed that Allah is existent . and this destroy your belief
keep on objections , it will not serve you

These words of yours stink of ignorance, plain and simple ignorance.

Sorry, but this stuff is just too much.

This post has been heavily edited due to extremely vulgar language directed at another poster.I don't do this without extremely good reason.

[McQ]

the verse speaks about Iron as an external metal comes from space .
did any one say this  before prophet Mohammad  ?
and your objection not about Iron … we both agreed that iron came from space after stars explosion " Dr. Harun yahya " mentioned that at the link . but your objection on the past verb " sent " because this verb needs an object " the sender " who is Allah .
also you did not bring any new information , once again :
did any one say  : " the iron has been sent down or came down " before prophet Mohammad  ?
and thanks for this valuable information about iron... you did not add anything .

-----------------------------------

therefore you try hard to avoid As far as possible Allah  . because if you agreed with my posts . means you agreed that Allah is existent . and this destroy your belief
keep on objections , it will not serve you

You ************. These words of yours stink of ignorance, plain and simple ignorance. You stupid ********. You don't know shit, do you?

Sorry, but this stuff is just too much. You ************.
************************.

i_am_i, you are getting an official warning about this post, as it is in every way, a violation of the rules of the forum. Please read the forum rules and note that it is not permissible to flame like this. In fact, I had to edit your post because of the extreme derogatory content.

[Mark L Holland]

To some light pls

  Only Allah can prove Allah.
 

[curiosityandthecat]

[some light plz]

To Recusant

a Simple word " Smoke " , the holy Quran cuts short the far distances in  research and the definitions and scientific names  " cosmic dust , Gas , hot Gas , ….. " to give you the exact word " SMOKE "
My sources said :
((with similar sizes to the particles in cigarette smoke ))
(( Interstellar dust particles are the size of smoke particles.))
(( Such particles are smaller than the diameter of a human hair and about the size of smoke particles. ))
which thing has the size of smoke particles ? Is it dust ,  or is it smoke .

------------------------
You said at  first comment :
No. The earliest eras of the universe did not contain particles the size of smoke particles. In fact, there were not even atoms in the first three eras of the universe, according to current thinking by cosmologists. It was not until many thousands of years after the Big Bang that atoms were able to form. Atoms are considerably smaller than smoke particles, as you well know. All of your sources are talking about cosmic dust. This is a product of the universe that developed long, long after the very earliest periods. A couple of pages for you to look at, since you're willing to examine current thinking in cosmology in comparison to your holy book:

Back to Quranic verses same Saurh :
((9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.))
In Arabic the word " day " means : 24 hours or a very long period .

Which means Allah created earth in the first two ears .

((10. He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measure therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four Days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).))

In the fourth era Allah finished the creation of earth , also during the fourth era the sky  was smoke . then :
 
(( 11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."  ))

So cosmology agreed with Quran that Allah designed the sky in the fourth era .  long after the  big bang
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http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0307/16supernova/

 " A team of UK astronomers have announced the discovery that some supernovae have bad habits -- they belch out huge quantities of 'smoke' known as cosmic dust. "
The name cosmic dust is a metaphorical name , the exact name is " smoke " .

[Mark L Holland]

To some light pls

  Look at it this way, even if Allah guided the writting of the Koran, which is as likely as king kong writing it.  All that would prove is that 1600 years ago there may have been a God called Allah, it does not prove that this God Allah is still alive and kicking.  If the only evidence for this God is 1600 years old then there is no knowing whether this God still exists or not.  If this God does not give modern proofs or evidence to show he exists then he does not exist.  He might have taken one look at how screwed up man kind was becoming and had a stroke and has been laying in a cosmic hospital bed for the last 1400 years crying like a little girl.
 

[some light plz]

The Expansion of the Universe

In the holy Quran , which was revealed 1400 years  ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:

( 47. And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.) Surah 51

The word “heaven”, as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Quran with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Quran, it is communicated that the universe “expands”.

And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.

Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that “the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time”. The research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology, however, revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly expands.

At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.

This fact was proved also by observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from each other implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe constantly expands. This fact was explained in the Quran when it was yet unknown by anyone.

The question : who did tell prophet Mohammad about the expanding universe ?

((53 . Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? )) Surah 41

[curiosityandthecat]

Uhm, some light plz, you're really just wasting your time. Your efforts would be better served working on a group of people who don't demand actual, tangible, scientific evidence for these things.

I'll say it again in no uncertain terms: you are wasting your time.

[Recusant]

...So cosmology agreed with Quran...

I can understand why you would believe that the Quran has valid scientific information which pre-dates modern science in it.  It's been asserted by Maurice Bucaille, "Harun Yahya" and others, and as curiosityandthecat said earlier in this thread, people have come here before, saying the same thing.  Fortunately (I suppose) for you, your faith does not depend on these 'revelations of scientific fact' in the Quran.  Because there are other passages in the Quran which are clearly contrary to modern science.  The passages you have been quoting can be made to seem to agree with modern science, but in fact are vague enough that they can be understood in many different ways.  The Quran is written in the language of poetry, and good poetry is made to communicate on a deeper level than dry prose such as that written by scientists.  If you find that it strengthens your faith to give a scientific meaning to certain passages, then by all means do so.  If, on the other hand, you expect me, or any non-believer to accept that the Quran contains valid 21st century science, you will have a difficult time, because none of the passages you have quoted so far seem to have anything of the sort.  From what I've read, the science of the Quran is accurate by 7th century standards, but it does not contain any information which was not available at that time.  In fact, as recently as 1982, the respected sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz issued a "fatwa that earth is flat and those Muslims who say otherwise contradict the Quranic teachings." **

a Simple word " Smoke " , the holy Quran cuts short the far distances in research and the definitions and scientific names " cosmic dust , Gas , hot Gas , ….. " to give you the exact word " SMOKE "
My sources said :
((with similar sizes to the particles in cigarette smoke ))
(( Interstellar dust particles are the size of smoke particles.))
(( Such particles are smaller than the diameter of a human hair and about the size of smoke particles. ))
which thing has the size of smoke particles ? Is it dust , or is it smoke .

It is dust.  "Dust" is what those who spend their lives studying it call it, simply because that's what it is. Heidelberg Dust Research Group

Back to Quranic verses same Saurh :
((9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.))
In Arabic the word " day " means : 24 hours or a very long period .

Which means Allah created earth in the first two ears .

If you have read the links I supplied in my first reply, you know that there were no stars, no planets, no dust, no, not even atoms in the first two eras of the universe.  As for the next portion of your post where you say that, "Allah designed the sky in the fourth era," I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  According to the information in the page Physics of the Early Universe which I linked in my first reply, the fourth era is when matter was able to form for the first time.

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And now, on to your latest post in this thread:

The question : who did tell prophet Mohammad about the expanding universe ?

You bring to our attention Surah 51 Ayah 47.  ÙˆÙŽØ§Ù,,سَÙ'Ù...َاء بَنَيÙ'نَاهَا بِأَيÙ'دٍ وَإِنَÙ'ا Ù,,ÙŽÙ...ُوسِعُونَ  This ayah has been translated various ways over the years:

M. Ali-- "And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and We are Makers of the vast extent." (1917)

M. Pickthall-- "We have built the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof)." (1930)

Y. Ali-- "With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space." (1938)

M. Asad-- "AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." (1980)

M.H. Shakir-- "And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample." (1983, but widely believed to be a plagiarism of Maulana Muhammad Ali's work of 1917)

R. Khalifa-- "We constructed the sky with our hands, and we will continue to expand it." (1989)

I asked for some help with this passage from a person who was a professional translator of Arabic, and this was his reply:

It's poetry, and a beautiful passage.
I love how much you can get out of two words.

وَإِنَÙ'ا Ù,,ÙŽÙ...ُوسِعُونَ

wa-inna: lamuwasi'u:n

wa-inna: is and-we with an emphatic particle
ws' is to be big, expansive.
The transitive form is "to expand (something), to spread out, to make it big."
I would translate this something along the line of "It is we who spread it out before you."

In the next ayah, this is set against farashna:ha: (the colon marking a long vowel) which means we spread it (the world) out. Same concept,

The Qur'an is very poetical and very elliptical. While some modern commentators do interpret passages like your Muslim friend suggests, I think it is far better to read this one as a passage of awe at the wonders of our God. Compare the Bible, Job Ch. 38.

I think that it's very significant that the translations using the sense "expand" came well after the relatively recent cosmological discoveries of scientists.  In other words, if you want to see this as the Quran predicting discoveries which took place in the 20th century, be my guest, but don't expect me to follow you down that path.  These passages you've been showing us are vague enough that one can point to them if one wants, but they don't clearly show any scientific knowledge that's ahead of it's time.


**The Myth of Scientific Miracles in the Quran

[some light plz]

to Recusant ..

As you said : my faith in Allah does not depend on  these ' revelations of scientific fact ' . but it increase my faith . day after day science proved that I am following the straight  path .

And These scientific facts for the unbelievers " atheists " . a method from multi methods of proving " scientific , logical , inference ,...... " to make them believe in Allah . and to be a strong witness against them if they insist to reject Allah  : ((124. "But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment." 125. He will say: "O my Lord! why hast Thou raised me up blind, while I had sight (before)?" 126. ((Allah)) will say: "Thus didst Thou, when Our Signs came unto thee, disregard them: so wilt thou, this day, be disregarded." 127. And thus do We recompense him who transgresses beyond bounds and believes not in the Signs of his Lord: and the Penalty of the Hereafter is far more grievous and more enduring. ))  

The holy Quran does not talk to Muslims only . this book speaks to " Jews , Christians , atheists , Buddhism , …. whatever was this  faith  " to guide them to the straight  path " one god no god but Allah " . in Quran : ((8. Almost bursting with fury: Every time a Group is cast therein, its Keepers will ask, "Did no Warner come to you?"9. They will say: "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, '(Allah) never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!'" 10. They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!" 11. They will then confess their sins: but far will be (Forgiveness) from the Companions of the Blazing Fire! ))
 
One God , then one way to worship him , and our brains are capable to know the differences between right and wrong, therefore the holy Quran speaks to brains , in many many positions : ((in order that they may receive admonition )) or ((Will they not then understand? ))  

Because there are other passages in the Quran which are clearly contrary to modern science. And the passages you have been quoting can be made to seem to agree with modern science, but in fact are vague enough that they can be understood in many different ways. The Quran is written in the language of poetry, and good poetry is made to communicate on a deeper level than dry prose such as that written by scientists. If you find that it strengthens your faith to give a scientific meaning to certain passages, then by all means do so. If, on the other hand, you expect me, or any non-believer to accept that the Quran contains valid 21st century science, you will have a difficult time, because none of the passages you have quoted so far seem to have anything of the sort. From what I've read, the science of the Quran is accurate by 7th century standards, but it does not contain any information which was not available at that time

This part of your comment , I will leave it for the experts , and the noble scientists who have knowledge more than me , they stand on the opposite side of you and your site after they knew the facts in holy Quran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzFYEOV ... re=related

is Mohammad the unlettered  person able to write  this , please watch  :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fZIQwnO ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0g ... re=related

In fact, as recently as 1982, the respected sheikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz issued a "fatwa that earth is flat and those Muslims who say otherwise contradict the Quranic teachings." **

Bin Baz was a great Muslim scholar , but not he is not my prophet . he was  mistaken when he said that  . but the great thing in the real believer as Bin Baz , when Muslims revealed the truth for him about earth he admitted  that he was wrong .
you and I and all people we did mistakes while [ speaking , or behaviors with others ]

and here you did a mistake: when you did not reveal the whole truth about Bin Baz's say .

It is dust. "Dust" is what those who spend their lives studying it call it, simply because that's what it is. Heidelberg Dust Research Group

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I do not like arguing , but since you mentioned the cosmic  Dust  :

 ( 1 ) - Space dust annoys astronomers just as much as the household variety when it interferes with their observations of distant stars. And yet space dust also poses one of the great mysteries of astronomy.

( 2 ) - “We not only do not know what the stuff is, but we do not know where it is made or how it gets into space,” said Donald York, the Horace B. Horton Professor in Astronomy & Astrophysics at the University of Chicago .

( 3 ) Cosmic dust consists of tiny particles of solid material floating around in the space between the stars. It is not the same as the dust you find in your house but more like smoke with small particles varying from collections of just a few molecules to grains of 0.1 mm in size.

( 4 ) Cosmic dust particles are very small. To understand their size and consistency, they may best be visually compared to cigar smoke -- perhaps icy cigar smoke .

( 5 ) they belch out huge quantities of 'smoke' known as cosmic dust.

So if want to add any thing about " dust " welcome , but I will not re-answer it again

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Your comment a about the expanding universe as floating dust , sorry [ floating smoke ] ,

You did great job by mentioning the names of the translators :

1- There is a big difference between " the word of Allah " and "the word of human "  and these translations have been done by human , they are not inspiration . surely you will find  differences between translations .

2-the word of Allah is in Arabic word only , : ((3. A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;- )) Surah 41.

3-translators produced a wonderful effort , just to communicate with other cultures and different tongs , the meanings translations but not the exact words  of the revolution .

4- the common thing between all Muslims , even if this Muslim not Arab , that Quran is written by Arabic language only .

5-The holy Quran comes  the top source of the Arabic language , it is not in the language of poetry, also not a prose , even the unbelievers during the time of prophet Mohammad did not know what to name the Holy Quran , at the same time no one of them were able to find one mistake or one contradiction in it . until they reached to the top level in hopeless , the holy Quran mentioned their reaction in several positions: ((5. "Nay," they say, "(these are) medleys of dream! - Nay, He forged it! - Nay, He is (but) a poet! Let him then bring us a Sign like the ones that were sent to (Prophets) of old!" ))

6-Mostly you are the person who communicate with me , I appreciate this .. which means you are a person have the ability to search and read , also to know the differences between the false and truth without a help from un-trusted sources … also I will not tell you to visit Islamic sources which glorify the holy Quran . Instead of this and that … give yourself 5 to 10 minutes per day to read a translation for holy Quran and then make your judgment .

7-I am paying the tax of public discussions . the fruits of it are less than private discussions . my only consolation : ((56. It is true thou wilt not be able to guide every one, whom thou lovest; but Allah guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance. ))

my regard

[curiosityandthecat]