Re: the holy Quran and the creation of universe

[some light plz]

((11. Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience.)) Surah 41

The previous verse from the holy Quran speaks about the beginning of creation . at this  moment there was no human to be a witness , but the holy Quran presented a trustful  scientific fact . and more than this , Allah Urges human  to discover  creation beginning  :
In Surah 29 : ((20. Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things. ))

Now back to our verse which mentioned the word SMOKE .
This word " smoke" describes the matter before the universe toll its shape-the hot cosmic smoke present during the creation of the universe . As now acknowledged  by scientist . This word in the Quran , in pinpoint fashion , describes this smoke for it is  a warm body of gas containing mobile particles connected to solid  . In the 20th century have scientists discovered that universe emerged from a hot gas in the form of smoke  .

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap980806.html

And the science discovered :
((Unlike household dust, cosmic 'dust' actually consists of tiny solid grains (mostly carbon and silicates) floating around in interstellar space, with similar sizes to the particles in cigarette smoke ))
 http://outreach.jach.hawaii.edu/pressroom/2003_casa/

((The interstellar gas consists of atoms and molecules, mainly composed of hydrogen and helium.  Interstellar dust particles are the size of smoke particles.))
https://www.courses.psu.edu/astro/astro ... birth.html

((Interstellar and interplanetary dust grains between about .6 micrometers and 1.4 micrometers are captured by Jupiter's magnetosphere, or area of magnetic influence, according to the study. Such particles are smaller than the diameter of a human hair and about the size of smoke particles. ))
http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlkop/dustring.html

this modern  discovering  has been mentioned in the holy Quran before 1400 years .

the logical question is : who did tell prophet Mohammad about the beginning of creation ?

there aremore ..

I wish that you are happy , but I am looking  for you : the everlasting happiness ..
My regard . thanks

[curiosityandthecat]

Ahem: viewtopic.php?t=1827

[G-Roll]

If all 3 main monotheists religions came from the god of abraham how did they wind up so different? There are many similarities but enough differences to create a different religion all together. Is this merely a result of different cultures take on the same god?    
And not to insult or put down your chosen faith, but why should I listen to your story of creation over the old testament? The old testament came before islam.
Having said that
Aken Ferryman of the Underworld
Aker Guardian and Gatekeeper of the Underworld
Am-Heh - Devourer of Millions
Ament Greeter of the Dead
Ammit Devourer of the Wicked
Amun and Amun-Re The King of the Gods
Anat Mother of Gods
Andjety A precursor of Osiris
Anqet The Embracer, Goddess of Fertility and the Nile at Aswan  
Anubis God of Embalming
Anuke Goddess of War
Anuket Goddess of the Nile
Apep The Great Destroyer
Arensnuphis Anthropomorphic Nubian Deity
As Kindly God of the Desert
Astarte, Warrior Goddess of Canaan
Aten The Sun Disk and later God
Atum The All-Father
Auf (Efu Ra) An aspect of the sun god Ra
Baal, God of Thunder
Ba-Pef - The Soul
Babi - The Dominant Male Baboon God
Banebdjetet God of Lower Egypt
Bast Beautiful Cat-Goddess
Bat - Ancient Cow Goddess
Benu (Bennu) - The Bird of Creation
Bes Protector of Childbirth
Dedwen - Nubian God of Resources
Denwen - The Fiery Serpent
The Ennead The Nine Great Osirian Gods
Fetket - The Sun God's Butler
Geb God of the Earth
Gengen Wer - The Great Honker
Hapi God of the Nile River
Hathor Goddess of Music and Dance
Hatmehyt - The Fish Goddess
Haurun, The Victorious Herdsman
Heh and Hauhet Deities of Infinity and Eternity
Heqet Frog Goddess
Heret-Kau - She who is Above the Spirits
Heryshef, Ruler of the Riverbanks
Heset Goddess of Plenty
Hetepes-Sekhus - An Eye of Re
Hike God of Magic and Medicine
Horus King of the Gods on Earth
Hu God of the Spoken Word
Iabet, Cleanser of Re, Personification of the East
Ihy - The Child God
Imhotep Lord of Science and Thought
Ipy (Opet), A Mother of Osiris
Isis Queen of the Gods
Iusaas - Creator Goddess
Kabechet Helper of Anubis
Kek and Kauket, Deities of Darkness, Obscurity and Night
Khenmu The Great Potter
Kherty - Ram-headed God
Kephri The Great Scarab
Khonsu God of the Moon
Maat Lady of Truth and Order
Mafdet Goddess of Scorpions and Snakes
Mahaf - The Ferryman
Mahes The Lord of the Massacre
Male Child Gods of Egypt
Mandulis - The Lower Nubian Sun God
Mehen Defender of the Sun Boat
Mehet-Weret - Cow Goddess of the Sky
Menhit Lion-headed War Goddess
Mertseger Guardian of the Valley of the Kings
Meskhenet - Goddess of Childbrith
Mihos - Son of Bastet
Min God of Fertility
Montu, Warrior and Solar God
Mut Grandmother of the Gods
Nefertem Lord of the Sunrise
Nehebkau, the God who Joined the Ka to the Body
Nekhbet Goddess of the Power of Kings
Neith Goddess of War and Funerals
Nephthys Lady of the Wings
Nun and Naunet Gods of Chaos and Water
Nut Goddess of the Firmament
The Ogdoad The Primordial Creation Gods
Onuris The War God
Osiris Lord of the Dead
Pakhet The Strength of Woman
Panebtawy - The Child God
Peteese and Pihor - Brother Gods
Ptah The Creator
Qadesh - Goddess of Esctasy and Sexual Pleasure
Re (Ra) The Sun God
Renenutet Goddess of the Harvest
Reshep - The Syrian War God
Sah and Sopdet (Sothis) The Astral God and Goddess
Satet Goddess of the Inundation
Satis Guardian of the Borders
Sebiumeker - Meroitic God of Procreation
Sefkhet-Abwy - Goddess of Writing and Temple Libraries
Seker The Resurrected Osiris
Sekhmet The Eye of Ra
Sepa - Centipede God
Serapis the Composit God
Serqet (Selkis) Scorpion Goddess
Seshat Goddess of writing, measurements
Set God of Evil
Shay - Personified Destiny
Shesmetet - Leonine Goddess
Shesmu Demon god of the Win Press
Shu God of the Air and Sky
Sia - The Perceptive Mind
Sobek Guard of the Gods
Sons of Horus Gods of the Viscera and the Canopic Jars
Sopedu - The Border Patrol God
Ta-Bitjet - A Wife of Horus
Tasenetnofret - The Good Sister
Taweret Goddess Demoness of Birth
Tayet - Goddess of Weaving
Tefnut Goddess of Moisture
Tatenen - "Father of Gods" and the God of the Rising Earth
Thoth God of Wisdom
Wadj Wer - The Pregnant God
Wadjet The Serpent Goddess
Weneg - Ancient Son of Re
Wepwawet (Upuaut) The Opener of the Ways
Wosret - Goddess of Thebes
Yah - Another Moon God
Yamm - God of the Sea

Here is a SHORT list of gods that came before the god of abraham. How is it that all these gods that where here way before god, but the the monotheists god is still credited with creation? All religion that came before the current god is dismissed as myth. Why shouldn’t we just cast off your belief like these other gods and their stories of creation?

[Mark L Holland]

eTo some light pls

  I admit that what you posted is interesting, but as with the Christian and Jewish holy books they too contain things which if looked at in a certain way might seem to make sense.  I and others have invalidated the Old and new testaments as being the infallible truth of a God or Gods.  While I have never looked at the Koran I would bet dollars to donuts that it to contains lies and contradictions within it’s pages.

  To know that Islam is no different then the Christian and Jewish beliefs is to look at their past and history.  Is there any thing in the history of Islam that shows the hand of a divine being protecting it or blessing it.  No, the holy lands of Islam have been invaded and conquered by heathens for centuries.  Did Allah at any time in the history of Islam smite with a mighty hand the enemies of his followers, No.

  All of the European nations who raped, pillaged and plundered Islamic Holy Lands all still exist.  The United States who now occupies vast tracks of Holy Islamic Lands is still here and still powerful, though bankrupted and hurting.  If Allah was truly real and truly interested in the health and welfare of his followers why would he allow such enemy nations to still exist and still plague his chosen followers.

  And in Islam like Christianity and Judaism cannot even agree on the interpretations and understandings of the Koran.  There is no unified or universal belief structure in Islam before the Christian Crusaders the Islamic tribes were fighting and killing each other because each group thought that only they had the infallible truths of Allah and that all others needed to accept that belief and killed those that rejected their authority.

  In the end Islamic history has very little difference from Christian history.  The differing sects fight among themselves for dominance and unite only when an outside threat comes around and when that threat is over they go back to fighting for dominance among themselves.  One of the greatest fears in western Islam is not the United States or it’s allies invading and occupying the holy lands.  The fear is that Iran will invade and occupy the Sunni holy lands.

  If Allah was truly interested in the health and welfare of his chosen followers would not he establish his chosen followers above all others in Islam.  Would not Allah say the Sunni’s or Shiite’s are my true followers and that any member of Islam who does not heed them will be forsaken.  That is why I reject the God/Jesus because Christianity is to fractured and independent of each other for any of the sects to lay claim to being the only true and righteous followers of the only true and living God.

  While I do believe that God or Gods exist I believe they are individual and personal Gods.  That they establish followers on a personal and individual basis, that they do not write infallible holy books which can be so easily invalidated.  That they do not demand obedience at the point of a divine gun barrel.  Any God who can establish a relationship with an individual and who can provide the evidence and proofs needed for that individual to believe.

  Can do the same to everyone, why would a God who can establish personal and individual relationships with people have any need for so called holy books.
 

[Whitney]

the logical question is : who did tell prophet Mohammad about the beginning of creation ?

If Mohammed had actually known about how the earth began and wasn't just rambling then the description of how everything started wouldn't have to be written so cryptically.

It's like Nostradamus' junk, when you write poetically in a vague manner it's only a matter of time till some of what you said can be singled out as applying to a historical event.  Yet those who want to believe you are a prophet will ignore all the misses and celebrate the hits.

[SSY]

Funny how the scientists who figured out the creation of planets from nebulae used real evidence and scientific reasoning, , and then, AFTER that had happened, we realised the Koran held the answer. If the Koran held so much scientific information within its pages, you would expect Muslim scholars to lead the field, using the book to guide them in the right direction, but it seems to more usual sequence of events involves a scientific discovery, and then after that, a Muslim searches through the pages for something that could be interpreted in such a way as to be in line with the science.

[Recusant]

This word " smoke" describes the matter before the universe toll its shape-the hot cosmic smoke present during the creation of the universe . As now acknowledged by scientist .

  No.  The earliest eras of the universe did not contain particles the size of smoke particles.  In fact, there were not even atoms in the first three eras of the universe, according to current thinking by cosmologists.  It was not until many thousands of years after the Big Bang that atoms were able to form.  Atoms are considerably smaller than smoke particles, as you well know.  All of your sources are talking about cosmic dust.  This is a product of the universe that developed long, long after the very earliest periods.  A couple of pages for you to look at, since you're willing to examine current thinking in cosmology in comparison to your holy book:

The Physics of the Early Universe

Graphical timeline of the Big Bang

[some light plz]

Thanks Mark , for these  interesting notes

eTo some light pls

  I admit that what you posted is interesting, but as with the Christian and Jewish holy books they too contain things which if looked at in a certain way might seem to make sense.  I and others have invalidated the Old and new testaments as being the infallible truth of a God or Gods.  While I have never looked at the Koran I would bet dollars to donuts that it to contains lies and contradictions within it’s pages.

The challenge of the holy Quran has been established before 1400 years by these verses :
((88. Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support. )) Surah 17
((23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. 24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.)) Surah 2 .
And no person dares to challenge the holy Quran , my comment is not a challenge for you [ forbid ]. I will be you hand and helper at this point . if you wish to choose one of two ways :
1- directly read the holy Quran for multi reasons : [ to know Islam , to know why you are living , and the most important to know God , challenging  ] in any way you will not find one error .
2- visit the websites that attack the holy Quran , I will be glad to reveal the truth for you .

eTo some light pls
  To know that Islam is no different then the Christian and Jewish beliefs is to look at their past and history.  Is there any thing in the history of Islam that shows the hand of a divine being protecting it or blessing it.  No, the holy lands of Islam have been invaded and conquered by heathens for centuries.  Did Allah at any time in the history of Islam smite with a mighty hand the enemies of his followers, No.

I think you know  the golden age of the Islamic civilization which was from the border of China in east to the Atlantic Ocean in west  to Spain in Europe , this civilization  continued more than 1000 years. But it passed as many civilizations before it . also it will return . this civilization was not  raise up if prophet Mohammad and the holy Quran are not existed.
Why Allah allowed this to happen to his followers ?
((214. Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah." Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near! )) Surah 2
I hope you read the verse well ,
Through history , prophets were the most persons who faced [ suffering , annoying ,persecution , even some prophets have been killed ] . also after they died many people still annoying them
Our life in this earth is a station for the everlasting  life in paradise or hell , and Allah is testing us . are we going to succeed or fail in this test  ?
 ((1. Blessed be He in Whose hands is Dominion; and He over all things hath Power;- 2. He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-  )) Surah 67
Therefore the love of Allah does not mean you must live in a palace or become a rich person , or to enjoy the delights of this life . contrary if Allah loves a person the test will be harder  and stronger and the examples are his prophets

eTo some light pls
 All of the European nations who raped, pillaged and plundered Islamic Holy Lands all still exist.  The United States who now occupies vast tracks of Holy Islamic Lands is still here and still powerful, though bankrupted and hurting.  If Allah was truly real and truly interested in the health and welfare of his followers why would he allow such enemy nations to still exist and still plague his chosen followers

Before 1400 years , Prophet Mohammad peace be upon him said : ((It will come a time where other nations will attack the Muslim Omah and cut pieces of  its body. The companions wondered and said, is it because we are few at that time prophet of Allah, he said no, you will be so many, but you will be like the trash sweeped by the flood, there is a lot of trash flushed by the flood, but it has no value. And Allah will take away the fear to you from the hearts of your enemies, and Allah will put the diseases of weakness in you heart called (Wahan). The companions asked him what is this decease of weakness prophet of Allah, he said the love of this life (Donia) and the hatred of death.))

eTo some light pls
And in Islam like Christianity and Judaism cannot even agree on the interpretations and understandings of the Koran.  There is no unified or universal belief structure in Islam before the Christian Crusaders the Islamic tribes were fighting and killing each other because each group thought that only they had the infallible truths of Allah and that all others needed to accept that belief and killed those that rejected their authority. In the end Islamic history has very little difference from Christian history.  The differing sects fight among themselves for dominance and unite only when an outside threat comes around and when that threat is over they go back to fighting for dominance among themselves.  One of the greatest fears in western Islam is not the United States or it’s allies invading and occupying the holy lands.  The fear is that Iran will invade and occupy the Sunni holy lands.

Prophet Mohammad mentioned that before 1400 years about us , he said : Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And I have seen its eastern and western ends. And the dominion of my Unimah would reach those ends which have been drawn near me and I have been granted the red and the white trea- sure and I begged my Lord for my Ummah that it should not be destroyed because of famine, nor be dominated by an enemy who is not amongst them to take their lives and destroy them root and branch, and my Lord said: Muhammad, whenever I make a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you for your Ummah that it would not be destroyed by famine and it would not be dominated by an enemy who would not be amongst it and would take their lives and destroy them root and branch even if all the people from the different parts of the world join hands together (for this purpose), but it would be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some people would kill the others or imprison the others.

Something written on us by Allah … this is his will as long as the Muslims became sects . and it will disappear when Muslims follow one path , the path of prophet Mohammad

 

eTo some light pls
If Allah was truly interested in the health and welfare of his chosen followers would not he establish his chosen followers above all others in Islam.  Would not Allah say the Sunni’s or Shiite’s are my true followers and that any member of Islam who does not heed them will be forsaken.  That is why I reject the God/Jesus because Christianity is to fractured and independent of each other for any of the sects to lay claim to being the only true and righteous followers of the only true and living God.

Allah did not command us to follow the people , he commanded us to follow the paths of prophet Mohammad  . it is very easy to know the path without looking to Sunni or Shiites .

eTo some light pls
While I do believe that God or Gods exist I believe they are individual and personal Gods.  That they establish followers on a personal and individual basis, that they do not write infallible holy books which can be so easily invalidated.  That they do not demand obedience at the point of a divine gun barrel.  Any God who can establish a relationship with an individual and who can provide the evidence and proofs needed for that individual to believe.  Can do the same to everyone, why would a God who can establish personal and individual relationships with people have any need for so called holy books.
 

All prophets have the same call to worship one God " the creator of heavens and earth " . therefore I would like to tell you that the holy Quran is different than other holy books [ OT and NT ] . the holy Quran reveals the truth about :
1-   God .
2-   prophets .
3-   the great slander against God and prophets in the bible .
4-   reveals the truth for Christians about God .
5-   reveals the truth for atheists about God .

[curiosityandthecat]

[G-Roll]

:brick:

Its still better than magic, or magik, or majic apologetics. However you want to spell it. I dated this chick once who claimed she couldn’t find her car keys. So she set up some ritual and casted a spell. Maybe a week later she stumbled upon her keys. The spell had worked!!!  lol  What about the truth for muslims and jews?

[curiosityandthecat]

:brick:

Its still better than magic, or magik, or majic apologetics. However you want to spell it. I dated this chick once who claimed she couldn’t find her car keys. So she set up some ritual and casted a spell. Maybe a week later she stumbled upon her keys. The spell had worked!!!  :brick: was for: anything that can possibly come up in this thread has likely already been addressed in that thread well over a year ago.

[some light plz]

Funny how the scientists who figured out the creation of planets from nebulae used real evidence and scientific reasoning, , and then, AFTER that had happened, we realised the Koran held the answer. If the Koran held so much scientific information within its pages, you would expect Muslim scholars to lead the field, using the book to guide them in the right direction, but it seems to more usual sequence of events involves a scientific discovery, and then after that, a Muslim searches through the pages for something that could be interpreted in such a way as to be in line with the science.

I am sure this verse is enough to reveal the truth
((53  . Soon will We show them our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things? )) Surah 41
indeed , the unbelievers  are the people who discover the signs of Allah in regions and our body . why ??
1-   to believe in Allah , the one and the only .
2-   these signs are going to be a witness against them , if  they insist to reject Allah .

therefore Allah revealed for  his prophet and for all believers , what their hearts tells :

( 13. But when Our Signs came to them, that should have opened their eyes, they said: "This is sorcery manifest!"14. And they rejected those Signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced thereof: so see what was the end of those who acted corruptly! ) Surah 27 .

I hope that all of you are not among  them

the logical question is : who did tell prophet Mohammad that the unbelievers will discover regions and our human's body   ?

[Whitney]

therefore Allah revealed for  his prophet and for all believers , what their hearts tells :

( 13. But when Our Signs came to them, that should have opened their eyes, they said: "This is sorcery manifest!"14. And they rejected those Signs in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls were convinced thereof: so see what was the end of those who acted corruptly! ) Surah 27 .

That verse is not related to the other verses you claim talk about the universe:

Surah12 Now put your hand into your bosom, and it will come forth white without stain: these are among the nine signs you will take to Firaun and his people: for they are a people rebellious in transgression.

It was talking about miraculous signs...not scientists finding things that people later (incorrectly) attribute to having been said in the Koran.

[Mark L Holland]

To some light pls

  I appreciated your post,  it was well written and thought out.  The problem I have with Allah is the same problem I have with Jehovah and God/Jesus.  Any God that needs holy books and second hand testimony to prove his/her/it’s existence is a weak God.  The God that I believe in simply touched my soul and said “I am here” to prove his/her/it’s existence.  While I believe my God guided me to write my book, my book was not about him/her/it.

  It was simply to invalidate the N/T and O/T Gods and their holy books, my God has never given me his/her/it’s infallible truths or asked me to write his/her/it’s  infallible holy book.  He/she/it simply proved his/her/it’s existence and then let me to find out on my own what his/her/it’s name, image and persona is that I need to believe in.  And the name, image and persona that I have applies to me only, they are not valid to others.  It is up to the Gods to prove their existence, not so called holy books or righteous priesthoods, but the Gods themselves must give the evidence and proofs needed to establish their existence.

  One day I might be motivated enough to read the Koran and document it’s flaws and contradictions even though you consider it to be infallible the Christian made the same false claims about their bible and they were proven wrong.  If Allah has given you the evidence and proofs you need to believe in him, then be happy with that but the simple fact is that second hand testimony and so called holy books cannot prove the existence of Gods only Gods can do that.
 

[Renegnicat]

Some light plz, I would like to point out something and ask a question:

First, I believe you are a good person. You probably do not endorse the killing of women or children. I don't think you would endorse fanatical conquest of america killing all infidels. My question, then, is that if some other verse were put in place of the ones you have pointed out, if the koran had been written differently, would that in any way change your views towards murder or genocide, of torture or stealing? Would trampling on the dignity of a baby have any different meaning in your view?

I do not think that you would suddenly commit all sorts of atrocities towards fathers, children, and orphans, or rape the poor and drink vodka every day, even if the koran had been written completely differently. If this is true, then I would like to ask you to consider other cultures and beliefs as simply alternative korans, ones that don't have the truth behind them, for that alone belongs to the koran, but alternative korans. Like you, these people reading their alternative korans and with their different beliefs, they also do not condone evil. They do not rape or kill or steal normally. In fact, if terrorists do not follow the will of allah because of their hate, then perhaps people who maybe do not read the koran but lead lives of love and fellowship also follow the will of allah, who is present in everything.

I respect your beliefs, founded by Allah, and I do not claim at all in any way that they are definitively false. I don't want you to convert to atheism, I don't want you to become christian. I feel that it is enough that we are all Allah's children, and I only ask that you not burden yourself with trying to justify islam in the face of all threats. So long as you live as one with Allah, you will most likely be happy and in paradise, and is that not a small price to pay for reprieve from defending your faith?

Inshallah, my friend,