CFI: Ft Hood massacre was product of religious fanaticism

[VietnamVet-BRIGHT]

The below essay is by Ibn Warraq, a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry and author of five books, including Why I Am Not a Muslim and Defending the West (Prometheus Books).  His thesis centers on what he calls the "Root Cause Fallacy" ...

The Root Cause Fallacy was designed to deflect attention away from Islam, in effect to exonerate Islam, which, we are told, is never to blame for acts of violence.

US Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan


CFI Releases Statement from Ibn Warraq in Response to Fort Hood Tragedy
November 11, 2009
Denying Reality, or the Heavy Cost of Political Correctness
By Ibn Warraq


In the wake of the murder of 13 and the wounding of 38 soldiers at Fort Hood on November 5, media analysts, politicians, and other sundry experts scrambled to present the accused perpetrator of the acts, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, 39, as a victim. In so doing they served, knowingly or otherwise, as apologists for radical Islam. From CNN to the New York Times, NPR to the Washington Post, the killings were presented as a result of racism. They were attributed to fear of deployment in Afghanistan and harassment from other soldiers. Cited were Major Hasan’s supposed maladjustment to his life and his sense of not belonging, pre-traumatic stress disorder, and various personal and mental problems. All these explanations are variations on what I have called “the Root Cause Fallacy,” which has been committed time and again since the terrorist acts of September 11, 2001. The Root Cause Fallacy was designed to deflect attention away from Islam, in effect to exonerate Islam, which, we are told, is never to blame for acts of violence. On this view we must not hold a great world religion of peace responsible when individuals of that faith resort to force. We must dig deeper: the real cause is poverty, U.S. foreign policy, the Arab-Israeli conflict, Western colonialism and exploitation, marital problems of individuals, and so on. The present “psychological” interpretations in the case of Major Hasan are just the latest example of the Root Cause Fallacy at work.

The Australian tells us that the mindset of Major Hasan remains a “mystery,” yet his Jihadist intentions are there on the surface for everyone not paralyzed by political correctness to see. According to CNN (Nov. 7), on the morning of the shootings Hasan gave copies of the Koran to his neighbors. According to the Associated Press (Nov. 6), soldiers reported that Hasan shouted out “Allahu Akbar” [God is Great] â€" the war cry of all Jihadis â€" before firing off over a hundred rounds with two pistols in a center where some 300 unarmed soldiers had lined up for vaccines and eye tests. NPR informs us that Hasan was put on probation early in his postgraduate work at the Uniformed Service University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda, Md., for proselytizing about his Muslim faith with patients and colleagues. The Associated Press (Nov. 11) adds that classmates who studied with Hasan from in that postgraduate program reported Hasan making a presentation during their studies "that justified suicide bombing" and spewed "anti-American propaganda," denouncing the war on terror as "a war against Islam." Classmate Val Finnell and another student complained about Hasan, shocked that someone with "this type of vile ideology" would be allowed to wear an officer’s uniform. But, importantly, no one filed a formal complaint about Hasan’s views and comments for fear of appearing discriminatory -- in other words, out of political correctness. According to The Telegraph (Nov. 6), Army colleagues reported that Major Hasan had condemned U.S. foreign policy, that he clearly declared that Muslims had the right to rise up and attack Americans, that he expressed happiness when a U.S. soldier was killed in an attack on a military recruitment center in Arkansas in June, and that he said people should strap bombs on themselves and go to Times Square. It has been widely reported that Major Hasan attended the Dar al-Hijrah mosque in Virginia Falls during the time that Anwar al-Awlaki, a Yemen-based al-Qaeda preacher with extensive terrorist connections, was its main preacher. Awlaki even praised Major Hasan as a hero on November 9, four days after the Fort Hood attacks. The Times of London revealed (Nov. 10) that Major Hasan had been in direct correspondence with Awlaki, in connection with which Hasan had already been under investigation by the F.B.I. Almost every news source has reported that Major Hasan was also under investigation by federal law enforcement officials for his postings to an internet site speaking favorably of suicide bombing.

Fortunately, not all in the media were hamstrung by political correctness. Here is Ralph Peters in the New York Post (Nov. 6): “On Thursday afternoon, a radicalized Muslim U.S. Army officer shouting ‘Allahu Akbar!’ committed the worst act of terror on American soil since 9/11. And no one wants to call it an act of terror or associate it with Islam. What cowards we are. Political correctness killed those patriotic Americans at Ft. Hood as surely as the Islamist gunman did. And the media treat it like a case of non-denominational shoplifting. This was a terrorist act. When an extremist plans and executes a murderous plot against our unarmed soldiers to protest our efforts to counter Islamist fanatics, it’s an act of terror. Period.”

There was a laudable concern among Americans about a possible “backlash” against all American Muslims. What backlash? Even following the September 11 attacks with their 2,976 victims, Americans behaved with exemplary restraint. They behaved in a civilized manner in the face of barbarism.

It is time to abandon apologetics, and political correctness. Not all Muslims are terrorists. Not all Muslims are implicated in the horrendous events of September 11, 2001 -- or of November 5, 2009. However, to pretend that Islam has nothing to do with 9/11 or the Fort Hood massacre is willfully to ignore the obvious. To leave Islam out of the equation means to forever misinterpret events. Without Islam, the long-term strategy and individual acts of violence by Osama bin Laden and his followers make little sense. Without Islam, the West will go on being incapable of understanding our terrorist enemies, and hence will be incapable to deal with them. Without Islam, neither is it possible to comprehend the barbarism of the Taliban, the position of women and non-Muslims in Islamic countries, or -- now-- the murders attributed to Major Hasan.

We are confronted, after all, with Islamic terrorists; and we must take the Islamic component seriously. Westerners in general and Americans in particular no longer seem able to grasp the passionate religious convictions of Islamic terrorists. It is this passionate conviction, directed against the West and against non-Muslims in general, that drives them. They are truly, and literally, God-intoxicated fanatics. If we refuse to understand that, we cannot understand them.
Jihad is “a religious war with those who are unbelievers in the mission of Muhammad. It is an incumbent religious duty, established in the Koran and in the Traditions as a divine institution, and enjoined specially for the purpose of advancing Islam and repelling evil from Muslims.” That is how it is described in no lesser source than the Dictionary of Islam, so we should not pretend surprise if Islamic terrorists see their mission in such terms.

In the wake of the Fort Hood Massacre, America’s armed forces, the F.B.I., C.I.A., Department of Homeland Security and other counter-terrorist bodies face some difficult decisions about Muslims employed in their services. After all, the view Major Hasan expressed â€" that Muslims in the U.S. Armed Forces should not serve in Iraq or Afghanistan, or anyplace where they might have to kill fellow Muslims â€" is precisely in keeping with fatwas issued by such Muslim leaders as Ali Gum’a, the mufti of Egypt, which forbade Muslim soldiers to take part in the so-called War on Terror.
When Muslim soldiers or agents or operatives feel that their primary allegiance is to Islam and not the United States, can we safely allow their service to continue? It is an agonizing question, but one we must confront; however, we cannot properly confront this question while we struggle to pretend that Islam itself is not part of the dispute.


.

[McQ]

Thanks for posting this. The CFI is a great resource.

[LoneMateria]

Very interesting article.  I didn't look too much into the details.  The thing is if he walked around and said the same thing about black people as he did about American's they would have been all over his ass for discrimination.  People don't seem to understand this and I don't see why.  I mean with the stuff he says replace American with Black People or any other group of people to see how racist he sounds.  The thing is he probably did have a psychological disorder that was hidden by his religion.  Anyone who expresses these type of views should have a psychological evaluation done.

The bitch of this is that atheists have no problem (well some of us have no problem) saying that someones religion is wrong and that if they hold these views they are fucked up in the head.  But we get chastised and ignored and shit like this happens ... and no one learns their fucking lesson because they don't want to hear that their beliefs are just as insane as Hasan's beliefs.  People today feel like they have the right not to get their feelings hurt and that staying quiet when people express these insane ideas.  Things like this make me more vocal about my atheism because letting superstitious religious fucktards say and do whatever they want end with this whether is Islam or Christianity or any other religion.

[Renegnicat]

I've often wondered at this. Political correctness is a very strange thing to me. It's like pretend politeness. You don't have to be politically correct to be Polite. Just be polite.  

Poor guy. He's gone.

[jeffakil]

I am interested in knowing if other atheists on this forum agree that Islam is the cause of this tragedy. I mean, It is hard to believe that anybody with any understanding in behavioral sciences, and sociology would think that our society has nothing to do with this. This is just another reason why I some times feel like many atheists are the irrational ones.

When I was in high school I was pretty much bullied every day, and I also had a very hostile environment at home. If I had my notebook I would show you that I was pretty much a fan of anything radical: death metal, satanism, doing research on how to make bombs on the internet, etc. Fortunately, nothing bad ever happened, and those days are long gone. I am sure that if I hadn't been strong enough, and killed a few people in my school they would have blamed rock music and Satanism, completely ignoring all the important factors. Ignoring that the root of the problem wasn't any particular belief, failing to understand that people attach meaning to different symbols, and they seek things that match the chaos they feel inside. That is to be expected from "irrational people", but how come so many atheists show the same irrationality towards Islam?

We want to talk about a "violent religion", but we often fail to look at our own society. Street gangs, skinheads, pro-gun fanatics, country invasions, and every other little thing that makes this country great.

Is there violence in Islam? Sure. More than in U,S. Christianity? Maybe. But please don't use Islam as an scapegoat for every tragedy that happens in this country. I am certainly more concerned about getting beaten up by a bunch of skinheads in a 95% white neighborhood, than getting blown up in a Middle Eastern one.

[LoneMateria]

Very good post jeffakil there are a lot of points I agree with and a few I don't.  Welcome to the forum.  You should create an introduction for yourself and tell us a little about yourself.  

I am interested in knowing if other atheists on this forum agree that Islam is the cause of this tragedy.  I mean, It is hard to believe that anybody with any understanding in behavioral sciences, and sociology would think that our society has nothing to do with this.

I don't think any one thing is the cause of anything.  I think in this case Islam played a dominant roll.  Our society was a factor in this but, our society didn't have him attend Mosque with a terrorist speaker.  Our society didn't emphasize suicide attacks against infidels as the most holy thing you can do in this life.  And our society didn't cause him to start shooting.  

What our society did do was create an environment where this individual's mental well-being wasn't discovered until after tragedy hit.  Our society has created "dirty" labels like racist and intolerant which have such negative stigmas attached to them that people will avoid them at all costs.  The officers under Hasan's command were so afraid of having these labels attached to them that when the signs of mental instability manifested they ignored them.  If you are discovered to be a racist in the armed forces you run the risk of losing your job and being dishonorably discharged.  In addition to this problem our society compounds this by putting religion on a pedestal thats to be "respected" and is above reproach.  Since no one was willing to speak up about his batshit crazy beliefs because they are sacred and doing so might get you fired and labeled an intolerant racist then its no wonder why this wasn't recognized for what it was and stopped until it was too late and many people were dead.  

This is just another reason why I some times feel like many atheists are the irrational ones.

You don't have to be rational to be an atheist.  All atheists share in common is their non-belief in a god or gods.  Britain is one of the most atheistic countries there are right now.  Bringing religion into your politics will get you laughed at and made fun of.  However it's one of the places where Homeopathy is widely accepted and used.  These same people who came to the conclusion there is no god believe that drinking magic water will cure them of all their diseases.  Some people get rid of one crazy belief just to take another one.

When I was in high school I was pretty much bullied every day, and I also had a very hostile environment at home. If I had my notebook I would show you that I was pretty much a fan of anything radical: death metal, satanism, doing research on how to make bombs on the internet, etc. Fortunately, nothing bad ever happened, and those days are long gone. I am sure that if I hadn't been strong enough, and killed a few people in my school they would have blamed rock music and Satanism, completely ignoring all the important factors. Ignoring that the root of the problem wasn't any particular belief, failing to understand that people attach meaning to different symbols, and they seek things that match the chaos they feel inside. That is to be expected from "irrational people", but how come so many atheists show the same irrationality towards Islam?

I'm sorry to hear about your childhood.  Also here I don't quite understand the connecting you are trying to make between being bullied and Islam.  Can you please clarify?

We want to talk about a "violent religion", but we often fail to look at our own society. Street gangs, skinheads, pro-gun fanatics, country invasions, and every other little thing that makes this country great.

I think you are getting the roles a little backwards here.  Yes we have gangs, racists, radicals, and a president who invaded Iraq because he was trying to stop Gog and Magog.  However why do we have these ... because of religion.  We have Christian biker gangs who murder people, we have groups like Christian Identity who advocate white supremacy, and  we have religions that tell people that their actions are meaningless and all they have to do is believe and they can get away with murder ... literally.  We have religions bombing abortion clinics and shooting abortion doctors, and we have religion causing constant divisiveness with everyone in our society.  Our society is a product of religion.

[jeffakil]

Very good post jeffakil there are a lot of points I agree with and a few I don't.  Welcome to the forum.  You should create an introduction for yourself and tell us a little about yourself.

Thanks. I have been reading the forum for a while, but I don't think I ever posted anything before. I will introduce myself properly in the near future.

I don't think any one thing is the cause of anything.  I think in this case Islam played a dominant roll.  Our society was a factor in this but, our society didn't have him attend Mosque with a terrorist speaker.  Our society didn't emphasize suicide attacks against infidels as the most holy thing you can do in this life.  And our society didn't cause him to start shooting.

Yes, I agree with you that people's beliefs are important and that they affect their behavior but that is only one of the many factors that can push somebody to do something like that. Our society does emphasize killing people (usually brown) as one of the highest things that you can do in your life. I cannot possible know every little detail about the gentleman that committed the attack but I would not feel comfortable saying that our society had nothing to do his behavior and his "choice" of mosque. Our society certainly doesn't physically force a teenage girl to get pregnant, or a a laid off ex-employee to come back and shoot everybody, but blaming this events on the individuals does not seem very logical to me.

What our society did do was create an environment where this individual's mental well-being wasn't discovered until after tragedy hit.  Our society has created "dirty" labels like racist and intolerant which have such negative stigmas attached to them that people will avoid them at all costs.  The officers under Hasan's command were so afraid of having these labels attached to them that when the signs of mental instability manifested they ignored them.  If you are discovered to be a racist in the armed forces you run the risk of losing your job and being dishonorably discharged.  In addition to this problem our society compounds this by putting religion on a pedestal thats to be "respected" and is above reproach.  Since no one was willing to speak up about his batshit crazy beliefs because they are sacred and doing so might get you fired and labeled an intolerant racist then its no wonder why this wasn't recognized for what it was and stopped until it was too late and many people were dead.  

I think you are assuming that Hasan had a "privileged" status because of his religion, and this might be so, but we do not know that yet. The dirty labels we speak of are a response to a the reality of our country. In the same way that we are a fat nation and we are obsessed with gyms and diets, we are a prejudiced nation that is obsessed with political correctness. I wish it was not this way, but I don't see anything changing until we change our ways.

You don't have to be rational to be an atheist.  All atheists share in common is their non-belief in a god or gods.  Britain is one of the most atheistic countries there are right now.  Bringing religion into your politics will get you laughed at and made fun of.  However it's one of the places where Homeopathy is widely accepted and used.  These same people who came to the conclusion there is no god believe that drinking magic water will cure them of all their diseases.  Some people get rid of one crazy belief just to take another one.

Exactly. I completely agree. I know that, and you seem to know it, thanks. But many of the atheists that I have found on the internet apparently don't. They just go around the whole day labeling every possible bit of human behavior that they do not agree with or that they obviously do no understand as irrational. According to them believing in God is irrational, which is very convenient since they don't do it. Well, I could say that same thing about people that follow sports, why Identify with a team and not the other? After all they don't even know this people. Or I could just try to understand it and realize that people construct reality in different ways. Again, I am an atheists, but I am far more interested in understanding belief than in labeling it "irrational".

I'm sorry to hear about your childhood.  Also here I don't quite understand the connecting you are trying to make between being bullied and Islam.  Can you please clarify?

Oh no, please, don't be sorry. I am a very happy person, and I wouldn't change my life for anything in the world. The point that I was trying to make is that if I had ever done the same thing Hasan did in my school most people would have probably accused Heavy Rock and Satanism of the shooting. Yes, there are a lot of Heavy rock bands that feature violent lyrics and visuals, they communicate messages about killing, seeking revenge, etc, but they were mainly resources that I was using to match my anger and frustration. If I ever thought about shooting somebody it was the bullying and my personal problems that were in my mind. Without denying that music could have had some influence in my behavior I can confidently say that it was not even close to being a determining factor in how violent I was or wanted to be.

I think you are getting the roles a little backwards here.  Yes we have gangs, racists, radicals, and a president who invaded Iraq because he was trying to stop Gog and Magog.  However why do we have these ... because of religion.  We have Christian biker gangs who murder people, we have groups like Christian Identity who advocate white supremacy, and  we have religions that tell people that their actions are meaningless and all they have to do is believe and they can get away with murder ... literally.  We have religions bombing abortion clinics and shooting abortion doctors, and we have religion causing constant divisiveness with everyone in our society.  Our society is a product of religion.

I could not disagree with you more  on your conclusion. Christian biker gangs are a minority, there are many theories, and extensive research has been done in this country regarding gangs, and I feel confident saying that for the most part gangs are not a product of religion. Some factors I can mention are inequality, the fact that we are a post-segregation post slavery society, and poverty. Although it is true that many gangs do use religious images and rituals I think most expert would agree with me.

Neither do I think that racism and white supremacy are rooted in religion. The god of the slave owner had blue eyes, and justified his action the the god of the slave wanted freedom, and promised him divine justice. People may use religion to validate their action, and religion does perpetuate and creates much negativity in our society, but it is far very far from being the root of any of the things you mentioned.

Perhaps you got it backwards

[LoneMateria]

First off let me say how nice it is to have a friendly disagreement on a few issues.  The last 2 or 3 disagreements I've been involved in I've been forced to make an ass of myself and have been afraid I might start getting warned by the sites admin.  I'm glad I've got no desire to be an ass to you and it looks like this will be an enlightening conversation for both of us ^_^.  

Yes, I agree with you that people's beliefs are important and that they affect their behavior but that is only one of the many factors that can push somebody to do something like that. Our society does emphasize killing people (usually brown) as one of the highest things that you can do in your life. I cannot possible know every little detail about the gentleman that committed the attack but I would not feel comfortable saying that our society had nothing to do his behavior and his "choice" of mosque. Our society certainly doesn't physically force a teenage girl to get pregnant, or a a laid off ex-employee to come back and shoot everybody, but blaming this events on the individuals does not seem very logical to me.

I agree that there can be a myriad of factors that cause someone to do this.  Like I said our society played its role in this tragedy.  However the most prominent factor here seems to be his devotion to Islam.  When you become so wrapped up in a state of delusion that your basic human emotions go away (which in the above article seems to be the case when he claims he is happy when an American soldier is killed in Afghanistan) you set you become a danger to yourself and to society.  He was actively attending a mosque that would have an Al Qaeda speaker who emphasized suicide bombings.  What this demonstrates at the least is that his religion has placed him in the position where he might actually consider doing something like this ... it just so happened he did.  Kill infidels then kill self ...

Another factor I didn't consider but might have played a very prominent role was his job.  He was helping people who came back from the middle east get used to society again.  That may have factored in somewhere in the equation.  

Anyway I blame the actions on the individuals because they physically did it.  And I look for the root cause(s) and blame those for leading the individual to that point.  Adults need to be held accountable for their actions.  The circumstances put these events into motion but it could have been stopped of Hasan just took 2 minutes to ask, "If they are supposed to be punished forever in hell then why do I need to kill them?"  At any point throughout that day before he fired the first shot he could have come up with some reason not to do it.  He didn't.  Instead grabbed 2 guns and started shooting everyone he could.  Did he think it was a bad thing to murder all those people?  Probably not ... did he think it would be bad to kill himself?  Probably not ... why?  Because his book says so.

I think you are assuming that Hasan had a "privileged" status because of his religion, and this might be so, but we do not know that yet. The dirty labels we speak of are a response to a the reality of our country. In the same way that we are a fat nation and we are obsessed with gyms and diets, we are a prejudiced nation that is obsessed with political correctness. I wish it was not this way, but I don't see anything changing until we change our ways.

I'm sort of saying that.  I'm saying his religion has a privileged status like all religions in our society.  Because of that privileged status when someone talks about the religion everyone is supposed to keep their mouths shut no matter what because you don't talk bad about someones religion.  I think I agree with you on the rest of this paragraph.  I didn't think about the dirty labels that way before ^_^

Exactly. I completely agree. I know that, and you seem to know it, thanks. But many of the atheists that I have found on the internet apparently don't. They just go around the whole day labeling every possible bit of human behavior that they do not agree with or that they obviously do no understand as irrational. According to them believing in God is irrational, which is very convenient since they don't do it. Well, I could say that same thing about people that follow sports, why Identify with a team and not the other? After all they don't even know this people. Or I could just try to understand it and realize that people construct reality in different ways. Again, I am an atheists, but I am far more interested in understanding belief than in labeling it "irrational".

I too am very interested in understanding belief ... but I still find it irrational.  Then again I find a lot of things irrational across the board.  I don't see why I can't seek to understand it and still find it irrational.  I remember a few years back on the news a guy was walking out of 7-11 at night and bumped into a woman ... didn't say sorry or excuse me or anything just side stepped and kept on walking ... well her boyfriend was with her and to make a long story short he ended up stabbing the guy to death ... for bumping into his girlfriend.  I can still label stuff like this as irrational and seek to understand what I can from it.

Oh no, please, don't be sorry. I am a very happy person, and I wouldn't change my life for anything in the world. The point that I was trying to make is that if I had ever done the same thing Hasan did in my school most people would have probably accused Heavy Rock and Satanism of the shooting. Yes, there are a lot of Heavy rock bands that feature violent lyrics and visuals, they communicate messages about killing, seeking revenge, etc, but they were mainly resources that I was using to match my anger and frustration. If I ever thought about shooting somebody it was the bullying and my personal problems that were in my mind. Without denying that music could have had some influence in my behavior I can confidently say that it was not even close to being a determining factor in how violent I was or wanted to be.

I absolutely agree with you that anyone with a political agenda would blame Heavy Rock and Satanism.  I think we all think about shooting someone from time to time.  Most of us have enough sense not to act on those thoughts ... however we hear of the cases when one dumbass does.  Just to be a bit objective here could that music have had more of an influence then you know?  After all most teenagers constantly listen to songs and if the majority of them are about violence .... I can see that having an impact on at least your subconscious .  

I think you are getting the roles a little backwards here.  Yes we have gangs, racists, radicals, and a president who invaded Iraq because he was trying to stop Gog and Magog.  However why do we have these ... because of religion.  We have Christian biker gangs who murder people, we have groups like Christian Identity who advocate white supremacy, and  we have religions that tell people that their actions are meaningless and all they have to do is believe and they can get away with murder ... literally.  We have religions bombing abortion clinics and shooting abortion doctors, and we have religion causing constant divisiveness with everyone in our society.  Our society is a product of religion.

I could not disagree with you more  on your conclusion. Christian biker gangs are a minority, there are many theories, and extensive research has been done in this country regarding gangs, and I feel confident saying that for the most part gangs are not a product of religion. Some factors I can mention are inequality, the fact that we are a post-segregation post slavery society, and poverty. Although it is true that many gangs do use religious images and rituals I think most expert would agree with me.

Neither do I think that racism and white supremacy are rooted in religion. The god of the slave owner had blue eyes, and justified his action the the god of the slave wanted freedom, and promised him divine justice. People may use religion to validate their action, and religion does perpetuate and creates much negativity in our society, but it is far very far from being the root of any of the things you mentioned.

Perhaps you got it backwards lol) with God on the winners side are still being taught today.    As for the subject of slavery we recently had a topic in here about slavery in the bible.  You should check it out ... at the very least there is a link to the Skeptics Annotated Bible with all the verses about slavery.

Anyway I may have it backwards I'm not positive i'm right.  I'm sure further discussion will  clear out the path.

[jeffakil]

First off let me say how nice it is to have a friendly disagreement on a few issues.  The last 2 or 3 disagreements I've been involved in I've been forced to make an ass of myself and have been afraid I might start getting warned by the sites admin.  I'm glad I've got no desire to be an ass to you and it looks like this will be an enlightening conversation for both of us ^_^.  

Thanks.

I agree that there can be a myriad of factors that cause someone to do this.  Like I said our society played its role in this tragedy.  However the most prominent factor here seems to be his devotion to Islam.  When you become so wrapped up in a state of delusion that your basic human emotions go away (which in the above article seems to be the case when he claims he is happy when an American soldier is killed in Afghanistan) you set you become a danger to yourself and to society.  He was actively attending a mosque that would have an Al Qaeda speaker who emphasized suicide bombings.  What this demonstrates at the least is that his religion has placed him in the position where he might actually consider doing something like this ... it just so happened he did.  Kill infidels then kill self ...

I think that religion can definitely influence the way somebody copes with their own personal problems. Is the way we cope with our problems solely a personal choice?

Another factor I didn't consider but might have played a very prominent role was his job.  He was helping people who came back from the middle east get used to society again.  That may have factored in somewhere in the equation.

Yes, it seems very plausible.

Anyway I blame the actions on the individuals because they physically did it.  And I look for the root cause(s) and blame those for leading the individual to that point.  Adults need to be held accountable for their actions.

I tend to look at these things from a different perspective. I agree that we need a system to protect society from individuals that are harmful to others. So, for instance, I can see why we would keep a serial killer "locked up" so that he/she cannot harm anybody else. Putting blame on the individual is a completely different thing, IMHO. I think that, like serial killers, terrorists, and gang members are a problem that need to be addressed, and of course when a gang member shoots an innocent girl in the head (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crim ... l_14_.html) we should do something to stop him from committing the same crime again. Surely I could say that the shooter could have done things differently, that he "should have" thought about the consequences of joining a gang, but I somehow  feel as if I would not  be thinking realistically if I did so. I believe in being analytical, and pragmatic instead of judgmental, although I confess it is quite difficult at times.

The circumstances put these events into motion but it could have been stopped of Hasan just took 2 minutes to ask, "If they are supposed to be punished forever in hell then why do I need to kill them?"  At any point throughout that day before he fired the first shot he could have come up with some reason not to do it.  He didn't.  Instead grabbed 2 guns and started shooting everyone he could.  Did he think it was a bad thing to murder all those people?  Probably not ... did he think it would be bad to kill himself?  Probably not ... why?  Because his book says so.

So we agree that several factors work together to create this type of situation, and that individuals (at least some) have the power to stop these things from happening. The problem is that not all individuals are the same. I do not know you personally, but you probably are a fairly intelligent person that has the capability of looking at things logically. Maybe, if you were put in Hasan's situation you would not react the same way. I do not think I would react the same way either, but neither of us are Hasan, so I just do not feel comfortable saying that he could have done anything, because I really do know that he could have done. It is like saying "that guys is to blame because he stepped in front of the car", well, maybe the guy was never thought how to interpret traffic lights.

I'm sort of saying that.  I'm saying his religion has a privileged status like all religions in our society.  Because of that privileged status when someone talks about the religion everyone is supposed to keep their mouths shut no matter what because you don't talk bad about someones religion.  I think I agree with you on the rest of this paragraph.  I didn't think about the dirty labels that way before ^_^

Islam is even more protected than Christianity when it comes to being criticized, and that is unfortunate, but there are reasons for that. One of them is our history of discrimination against minorities. This video illustrates some of that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqbQWxHIn4U. Again, I am not agreeing with anything, just stating what to me is the obvious.

I too am very interested in understanding belief ... but I still find it irrational.  Then again I find a lot of things irrational across the board.  I don't see why I can't seek to understand it and still find it irrational.  I remember a few years back on the news a guy was walking out of 7-11 at night and bumped into a woman ... didn't say sorry or excuse me or anything just side stepped and kept on walking ... well her boyfriend was with her and to make a long story short he ended up stabbing the guy to death ... for bumping into his girlfriend.  I can still label stuff like this as irrational and seek to understand what I can from it.

There are some things that I would like to point out. The first thing is that irrationality is really hard to define objectively. What is irrational and what is defined as rational depends largely on the situation, the culture, and outcome of the irrational behavior. For instance, if a person behaves in a certain way, and gets a negative outcome, it might be said by others that he/she behaved irrationally, but it is possible that if the outcome is positive the perception of the observers is partially or even completely different, even if there were many factors in the outcome outside of the behavior itself. For example, say we work at the same company, which is 5 miles away from our neighborhood. I tell you that I am going to ride my bicycle because the traffic is too heavy, you tell me that it does not make any sense because my car will get my to my destination faster, regardless of how bad the traffic is. So we both leave our homes at the same time, you drive your car, and I ride my bike. Weather or not you define my behavior as irrational depends largely on who gets to our destination first.

Irrationally (whatever it may be) is a human trait that we all possess, and more importantly, that we all need, and that in many cases may be desirable. Maintaining unrealistic expectations is one of the most common examples of irrational that you will find on different texts. Now, imagine you are lost in the middle of a dessert. You know this area, and you know that you are way too far from civilization to make it by walking. Perhaps, the rational thing to believe is that you in fact will die, and that it is possible that your family won't even be able to recover your body. But what would be better, to die walking or to wait for  your death sitting on the sand? Well, you could rationalize this and say that it would be more rational to continue walking since however little your chance might be, waling is more effective that doing nothing.

The purpose of the behavior is also important. If somebody just cannot cope with the idea that there is no absolute morality, are there irrational for using the concept of God as a defense mechanism to avoid pain, or would they be be irrational if they reject the idea of God, and do not stop the suffering. Some people might say that there are alternatives to the aforementioned dichotomy, but that would be a form of ego-centrism, that is, defining the world by one's own standards. Just because I am able to internalize certain concepts (secular humanism for instance) that give my life sense and purpose, it does not mean that every other human is capable of doing that.

What if somebody does analyze a question such as the existence of God, and they conclude that God does exist. They are certainly being rational, in that they are not just accepting dogma and they are using logic to understand a complex situation, but are they being irrational, or are they just wrong?

I would also like to mention that words have a lot of power. "Irrational" is a term that I use only when I am referring to irrationality itself, but if I am studying or analyzing something other than that I prefer to steer away from it because in my opinion I would be condition myself and others to react negatively, since in its common usage the word "irrational" is used pejoratively.

I absolutely agree with you that anyone with a political agenda would blame Heavy Rock and Satanism.  I think we all think about shooting someone from time to time.  Most of us have enough sense not to act on those thoughts ... however we hear of the cases when one dumbass does.  Just to be a bit objective here could that music have had more of an influence then you know?  After all most teenagers constantly listen to songs and if the majority of them are about violence .... I can see that having an impact on at least your subconscious .  

I would not categorize these people as dumbasses. Although my situation was bad, I was lucky enough to always have my mother by my side. Having a stable loving figure in one's life can make all the difference in the world. A lot of this people have nobody. By the way, I did not intend to make a a connection between the two, but it is said that Hasan started attending the Mosque frequently after his parents died. Actually, after writing the last sentence it also came to my mind that my friend told me the other day that she used to be more like me (I guess she didn't mean an atheist, but more skeptical) but she became a Christian when her sister died.

As far as music having an influence on me I am sure it did, but it was probably not negative. I used music as an outlet for my negative feelings. It felt good to know that I was not the only person that felt oppressed and that other people had the same ideas I did. Of course, different people interpret things and react to them different. It is possible that somebody  else in my situation would have taken the message of the music literally and done something crazy. Religion of course is different to music. Religion is closely related to believes, culture, politics and every other social force that I can think of.

The point I was trying to make is that you don't see Atheist biker gangs minority or otherwise.  You don't see atheist organizations that advocate racism.  Some of the craziest beliefs currently in existence come from religious organizations ... like dinosaurs on noah's arc.  About supremacy ... where do you think that idea comes from?  Supreme being, God's chosen people, subdue the earth.  In the bible the supreme people are the people with God on their side.  It doesn't seem like that concept is foreign to the bible and though we may or may not be able to trace it further back we know that the bible is still a big part of todays society.  These stories of the supreme victories (and the one loss lol<<<<<<<