Obama wins Peace Prize.

[Renegnicat]

Please refer to my thread on political theory in philosophy; It basically clears up any confusion as to why the u.s. hasn't had any real reform in the past 30-40 years, and why the executive office doesn't really hold that much power.

The office of the president really is laughable. People like you guys expect him to do a lot of stuff, but most of the things people generally associate with presidential action are actually the responsibility of the legislature. Senators and representatives... we don't live in a political system where reform is made easy. Reform is never easy in a system where change requires large amounts of votes from different people.

Read my thread: It's called New Political Theory, and it explains a lot.

[Ultima22689]

So should I make it final to pack up and head off to Europe eventually? If reform is very unlikely I might as well go somewhere more to my tastes.

[Will]

Uh huh....because a statist nearly facist government really works out well. How you enjoying your tax rates, buddy? Or how about the fact if you read certain books you are suddenly a blip on their bloated radar screen. Or how about the idea that the PATRIOT act is not going away because it is an effective tool to silence critics.

My tax rates aren't high enough. I don't show up on any radar screen, and the Patriot Act is an ongoing problem which was created not by statist Democrats, but anti-Statist, "useful idiot" Republicans.

To say Blue states would somehow prosper is laughable. Blue states also tend to create massive deficit to pay for their welfare programs. I'd welcome a drop in life expectancy, personally, because most people I see on the street tend to be wasting resources. Harsh? Perhaps, but I feel that nature tends to be the best leader in the matters of population control.

Only, like I said, that's not actually true. California would be fine right now if we were getting back what we put in to the federal government. Do we have overzealous Dems in the state senate? Oh god, yes. I'm actually considering running if they don't get their act together by the time I hit 30. Still, even during a time of substantial recession and burst housing bubbles in California, the state actually is generating wealth, some of which is taxed for social programs that most Californians want. I like the idea that some of what I pay will help someone down on his or her luck. Taxers, after all, are the price-tag for civilization.

I think your scenario is highly unlikely. Then again, I'd also prefer a pretty anarchist way of life. I tend to also be quite self-sufficient and fiercely independent. Most people tend to be conditioned to rely on authority, I tend to want to subvert/question it.

A lot of it was hyperbole. What can I say? I like to embellish. Still, it was meant to illustrate a few realities about the idea of a libertarian congress. You want statists running the fed just like you should want libertarians running the states. Like I was saying in the other thread, government works best when it's adversarial, when there's no trust. Government should be a place where people of different backgrounds, ideologies, and beliefs come together to make decisions for the common good.

Red/Blue, you're still screwed. It's like being eyed by two wolves who gun for various parts to kill you. One wants to go for your neck, the other your stomach. You're fucked either way.

All that tells me is that we need a few more parties to keep Coke and Pepsi on their feet.

[Big Mac]

Uh huh....because a statist nearly facist government really works out well. How you enjoying your tax rates, buddy? Or how about the fact if you read certain books you are suddenly a blip on their bloated radar screen. Or how about the idea that the PATRIOT act is not going away because it is an effective tool to silence critics.

My tax rates aren't high enough. I don't show up on any radar screen, and the Patriot Act is an ongoing problem which was created not by statist Democrats, but anti-Statist, "useful idiot" Republicans.

To say Blue states would somehow prosper is laughable. Blue states also tend to create massive deficit to pay for their welfare programs. I'd welcome a drop in life expectancy, personally, because most people I see on the street tend to be wasting resources. Harsh? Perhaps, but I feel that nature tends to be the best leader in the matters of population control.

Only, like I said, that's not actually true. California would be fine right now if we were getting back what we put in to the federal government. Do we have overzealous Dems in the state senate? Oh god, yes. I'm actually considering running if they don't get their act together by the time I hit 30. Still, even during a time of substantial recession and burst housing bubbles in California, the state actually is generating wealth, some of which is taxed for social programs that most Californians want. I like the idea that some of what I pay will help someone down on his or her luck. Taxers, after all, are the price-tag for civilization.

I think your scenario is highly unlikely. Then again, I'd also prefer a pretty anarchist way of life. I tend to also be quite self-sufficient and fiercely independent. Most people tend to be conditioned to rely on authority, I tend to want to subvert/question it.

A lot of it was hyperbole. What can I say? I like to embellish. Still, it was meant to illustrate a few realities about the idea of a libertarian congress. You want statists running the fed just like you should want libertarians running the states. Like I was saying in the other thread, government works best when it's adversarial, when there's no trust. Government should be a place where people of different backgrounds, ideologies, and beliefs come together to make decisions for the common good.

Red/Blue, you're still screwed. It's like being eyed by two wolves who gun for various parts to kill you. One wants to go for your neck, the other your stomach. You're fucked either way.

All that tells me is that we need a few more parties to keep Coke and Pepsi on their feet.

Oddly enough Will, I don't see our views as being to dramatically different. I just don't like liberals too much, then again I am not exactly wild about conservatives either. I just slightly lean their way on SOME issues.

I feel that whatever party is in power at this point we are still kind of  screwed. And the problem with a lot of red states is well....we have poor blacks. I'm not saying they're bad people (well a lot tend to be shitheads) but they tend to be a drain on the state. It goes the same for poor whites/mexicans/etc. but if we got rid of the more....lackluster producers of the states, I'd imagine the red states would be an advantage over the blue.

[karadan]

Come on, snake oil? Hope and change are campaign terms, words just like those that John McCain, John Kerry, Al Gore, George W. Bush, Clinton, etc. all used. Those promises make him a politician, and I doubt anyone would be surprised to learn that a senator-turned-president is a politician.

President Obama is a moderate, and he's very fond of compromise. He never really pretended to be anything else. He never promised to leave Afghanistan or retract the entire Patriot Act. He never even promised single-payer. As a moderate, I expect about the same from President Obama as we got from President Carter. The fact that he's young, smart, empathetic, and leaps and bounds more progressive and capable than Bush really doesn't say much.

Carter was a failure president. We need a warrior-poet for president. A man who knows the horror of wars enough to know when to use military action but also a man who is intelligent enough to know how to use diplomacy. Obama is neither. He's a sheltered bubble-child who grew up being brain-washed by people around him that he is the answer to humanity's problems. I say we need a president who says, "Fuck this, fuck you world. Fend for yourself, we got our own problems here. You fix your own shit or kindly shut the fuck up/kiss our asses."

Anyone who wants to talk shit/interfere with us gets a week-long shelling courtesy of our well-funded (but sadly fucked with by congress) military.

I propose a Klingon/Romulan hybrid society.

It's that 'you're either with us or against us' mentality that got you in the shit pile you're currently sat in. It didn't work then and it won't work in the future.

How exaclty is the current administration supposed to reverse the last 8 years worth of damage in just one year? Can't people just be happy that there isn't a rabid christian fundamentalist at the helm anymore?

What happens with the power vacuum if all the troops are pulled out from Afghanistan and Iraq immediately? All the nasty people come back in droves and start slaughtering the innocent for helping the infidels. Are we really that unsympathetic? Do we really not give a shit about the ordinary people who seem to be the worst casualties of war?

Fuck that! We need more troops. We need much more troops. The Taleban and islamist extremism cannot get the same boost it did when the Russians left Afghanistan, or have you forgotten the pictures of what the taleban did as soon as they had free reign again? You really need to look at them closely. See if you can find the picture of the piles of dead children minus their right arms. Apparently god doesn't like children who've been innoculated for TB...

[Big Mac]

I didn't say I opposed the idea of Afghanistan completely. I just feel that it's not an act of peace so much as begetting more violence. Also, there has yet to be anything of measure in regards to Obama's presidency. Why give him the peace prize when a lot of the other contenders were probably more deserving?

[karadan]

I didn't say I opposed the idea of Afghanistan completely. I just feel that it's not an act of peace so much as begetting more violence. Also, there has yet to be anything of measure in regards to Obama's presidency. Why give him the peace prize when a lot of the other contenders were probably more deserving?

Because him being president has sent waves of optimism, euphoria and gratitude around the world because the US finally has a president with a modicum of intellect running the show. Believe me when I say the hundreds of millions of people in Europe who cheered when he won the election (count me in on that number) did so not because of his policies for tax, healthcare reform or weapons regulation but simply because he understands the value of over-seas relations.

He may not have accomplished anything from your point of view but the sigh of relief from the rest of the world this last eight months has been palpable. That in itself is enough of a chunk of progress for vast swathes of the planet wishing the Nobel peace prize upon Obama.

You only have to take a snap-shot of news segments from other countries to see how vastly different the opinion of the US is now, compared to a year ago. It is all positive. You should thank Obama for that. I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

The most powerful country in the world needs the rest of the world to keep that moniker.

[Big Mac]

I didn't say I opposed the idea of Afghanistan completely. I just feel that it's not an act of peace so much as begetting more violence. Also, there has yet to be anything of measure in regards to Obama's presidency. Why give him the peace prize when a lot of the other contenders were probably more deserving?

Because him being president has sent waves of optimism, euphoria and gratitude around the world because the US finally has a president with a modicum of intellect running the show. Believe me when I say the hundreds of millions of people in Europe who cheered when he won the election (count me in on that number) did so not because of his policies for tax, healthcare reform or weapons regulation but simply because he understands the value of over-seas relations.

He may not have accomplished anything from your point of view but the sigh of relief from the rest of the world this last eight months has been palpable. That in itself is enough of a chunk of progress for vast swathes of the planet wishing the Nobel peace prize upon Obama.

You only have to take a snap-shot of news segments from other countries to see how vastly different the opinion of the US is now, compared to a year ago. It is all positive. You should thank Obama for that. I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

The most powerful country in the world needs the rest of the world to keep that moniker.

Uh huh....so because of good feelings he deserves it over say....

Sima Samar, women’s rights activist in Afghanistan: “With dogged persistence and at great personal risk, she kept her schools and clinics open in Afghanistan even during the most repressive days of the Taliban regime, whose laws prohibited the education of girls past the age of eight. When the Taliban fell, Samar returned to Kabul and accepted the post of Minister for Women’s Affairs.”

Hu Jia, a human rights activist and an outspoken critic of the Chinese government, who was sentenced last year to a three-and-a-half-year prison term for ‘inciting subversion of state power.’

Wei Jingsheng, who spent 17 years in Chinese prisons for urging reforms of China’s communist system. He now lives in the United States.

Dr. Denis Mukwege: Doctor, founder and head of Panzi Hospital in Bukavu, Democratic Republic of Congo. He has dedicated his life to helping Congolese women and girls who are victims of gang rape and brutal sexual violence.

I don't understand you idealist types. After billions of years of harsh reality you guys seem to think good feelings will solve things. Wake-up, results count, touchy feelings about how nice a black president is do not.

I can't wait for 2010 and 2012, it'll feel good voting against the Left for this stupid crap they've been pulling.

World opinion be damned, good leaders do what they have to not what everyone around them thinks they should so they can be liked. Obama is that kid in school who wanted to be friends with everyone. Too idealistic and soft to be a real leader. Bush was a moron, we need a military man to run the country. This inefficient crap would be easier to crack down on. Strong men take what they dare, soft men play politics.

[karadan]

As i said, I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

[Ultima22689]

I'm still trying to learn about the rest of the world, it's annoying when you don't have a teacher for that.

[Big Mac]

As i said, I find it bizarre how the importance of over-seas relations is lost on so many Americans.

What does it matter? You guys still deal with us, you know what happens if you piss us off too much, and basically you're kind of like the girl who puts out even after you treat her like shit. You guys give us no real reward for changing our ways too drastically. And frankly I couldn't give two shits and a fuck about what the world opinion is about the US. You guys hate each other just as much and this whole "We don't like you" routine gets old. We do what we want so let's get the party started. PARTY HARD!!!!

Just out of curiosity what country do you hail from? I'm curious because I imagine its military and economics are not as powerful hence it's at a lower tier to us.

[Ninteen45]

I'm still trying to learn about the rest of the world, it's annoying when you don't have a teacher for that.

Let me help.

[Big Mac]

I think with these accomplishments we are entitled to our "arrogance". When you guys actually do something like walk on the moon, invent the first semi-auto battle rifle to be fielded across your entire military when others are using bolt actions, dropping some atomic bombs on a country that won't quit, and essentially still kicking ass, then we'll be all ears about your opinion.

For now, enjoy your shiny half-black president. He won't be getting reelected in 2012 if we can muster up our forces. Then we'll have a real president who isn't an appeaser but isn't a warmonger like Bush. A strong leader is what a strong nation needs. Weak men need not apply.

[Ultima22689]

I'm still trying to learn about the rest of the world, it's annoying when you don't have a teacher for that.

Let me help.

Ha, that sounds about right to an exaggerated extent.

I don't see how taking something as brilliant as nuclear energy and turning it into a bomb that still devastates the land it was dropped upon today is accomplishment nor do I get how making guns equates to major contributions to the world, hell the first one came CLOSE to ending humanity as we know it.

Also JFK was the one who pushed for the race to the moon and from the gist i'm getting from you JFK was shiny like Obama is now.

I'm curious, who is this awesome person who is going to be president you are talking about?

[Big Mac]

Any person but Obama. Worst president ever. Hell I'd almost want Bush back in office.

And JFK at least wasn't a pansy who kissed Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. ass. He had some balls to be like, "You put installations up in Cuba, we will have a throwdown you little vodka swilling commies." Russia backed down and we won the Cold War eventually.  Obama is more like Carter in that he's weak and would never survive in war. JFK served and his ship was blown to bits. The man knew the horrors of war. Like I said, you should be required to have served in the military before you can run for president. They usually make the best leaders.

I'm not trolling, I honestly hate Obama this much. I feel that we are going to become even weaker with someone like him at the helm. Democrats are worse to me than Republicans. They have no spine in them. They wish to appease the world instead of making us even more powerful as a nation. I'm voting straight Republican in the following elections until the Democrats are out of power. At the very least too embroiled with the Republicans to do anything significant. Infighting is the blessing to Americans. It helps keep worthless money vacuums like Congress and the rest of the government from doing anything.

Oh and guns helped the Spaniards conquer the Americas, it helps people defend themselves, and it shapes the world. Personally you make it sound as if humanity is something worth keeping around. Then again I'm fairly misanthropic so I enjoy watching the reduction in population. I think people who don't see the brilliance in weapons tend to be the ones who are secretly envious of those with military might.

By the way, LBJ (a Democrat) started the Vietnam war which ended 58k+ American lives and raped the nation of Vietnam. So Obama is emulating LBJ a little with Afghanistan. Hopefully that among other things will help oust him in 2012.