Just a Few Thoughts...

[Twiddler]

Haven't been here in awhile, but I thought I'd stop back to post this.

So last night I had a pretty in depth discussion about religion/spirituality/life with my mom and it didn't go badly at all but I have a few things that are bothering me or I'm wondering about.  Just to kind of set the scene, she's Christian and believes that everything happens for a reason (but is a reasonable Christian, as I didn't get any quotes from the Bible) and I'm a pretty strong atheist.  Needless to say, we disagreed on a lot of things, haha.  I just had a few thoughts that I thought I would bring up here...

First, do you guys (the atheists) always get asked why every little thing in life happens as soon as you say that you don't believe in a God who oversees everything?  She just kept repeatedly asking me how to explain many things that she thought couldn't be done with out God and while I did my best to offer possible rational explanations, she just kept coming at me with them.  It really bothered me that since I didn't have a God who I could rely on to explain anything I didn't understand, that therefore I personally had to explain every little thing about the world that didn't make sense.

Another thing that bothered me was that she kept insisting that the only reason that me and my brothers were healthy was because of how she was always praying for us.  I didn't really say anything with regards to this because I know she would be highly sensitive about any negative words I would say towards this.  But I kept thinking one thing:  if she believes that the only reason I'm healthy is that because she prays for us, then does she believe that my children are not going to be healthy?  Because, that's what I kept getting out of it.  I know that's not what she thinks when she makes that statement, but she has to realize how outrageous what she was saying, really is.  

The final big thing that bugged me was how I felt like she kept trying to get me to be all hush-hush about anything involving religion/God when being in the public.  She just kept telling me to do things like "not use the word atheist" and "keep it under wraps when around your friends" and to "not be so candid about the conversation usually."  I tried to explain to her just how much I restrain myself in everyday life the way it is, but I still don't think she got it.  I mean, amongst my good friends who I trust, only one of them I can go to and have someone who understands where I'm coming from (but my younger brother did say after my mom left that he doesn't believe in the stuff either, which made me feel good).  I know that she is trying to protect me from being viewed as this horrible person when it isn't warranted, but I just think its incredibly easy to tell a person with a minority view to pipe down, when keeping completely quiet would only frustrate me further.  I know that there is a time and a place for everything, but that just seemed a little too much to me.

Well, that's about it.  I know that for how much I ranted it must seem that I hated the conversation, but I really did enjoy it.  There were just some things that I had to get off of my chest, haha.  Thanks for anybody who took the time to read the novel I just wrote...

[Will]

Welcome back.

First, do you guys (the atheists) always get asked why every little thing in life happens as soon as you say that you don't believe in a God who oversees everything?

Yes, this is fairly common. From her perspective, everyone should automatically assume as she does that everything that happens has a purpose, and it would take considerable effort for her to be able to not look at the world that way. It's like someone that was born and raised an atheist with no exposure to religion being asked to assume that life has some objective meaning. It wouldn't make any sense.

Another thing that bothered me was that she kept insisting that the only reason that me and my brothers were healthy was because of how she was always praying for us.  I didn't really say anything with regards to this because I know she would be highly sensitive about any negative words I would say towards this.  But I kept thinking one thing:  if she believes that the only reason I'm healthy is that because she prays for us, then does she believe that my children are not going to be healthy?  Because, that's what I kept getting out of it.  I know that's not what she thinks when she makes that statement, but she has to realize how outrageous what she was saying, really is.

That's interesting. Does she have an explanation as to how people that aren't prayed for are also healthy? I know it doesn't always work, using someone's logic against them, but it seems like the best response.

The final big thing that bugged me was how I felt like she kept trying to get me to be all hush-hush about anything involving religion/God when being in the public.  She just kept telling me to do things like "not use the word atheist" and "keep it under wraps when around your friends" and to "not be so candid about the conversation usually."  I tried to explain to her just how much I restrain myself in everyday life the way it is, but I still don't think she got it.  I mean, amongst my good friends who I trust, only one of them I can go to and have someone who understands where I'm coming from (but my younger brother did say after my mom left that he doesn't believe in the stuff either, which made me feel good).  I know that she is trying to protect me from being viewed as this horrible person when it isn't warranted, but I just think its incredibly easy to tell a person with a minority view to pipe down, when keeping completely quiet would only frustrate me further.  I know that there is a time and a place for everything, but that just seemed a little too much to me.

Sounds like she's trying to bargain with your atheism. I wrote a post a while back where I applied the Kubler-Ross model to people that are leaving atheism. One of those possible steps, in becoming atheist, is the bargaining stage. When denial and anger can't work, people want to try and compromise so as to not lose something completely.

Well, that's about it.  I know that for how much I ranted it must seem that I hated the conversation, but I really did enjoy it.  There were just some things that I had to get off of my chest, haha.  Thanks for anybody who took the time to read the novel I just wrote...

No worries, that's one of the reason the forum's here!

[Reginus]

Interesting. Being a Christian, I would have to say that for the most part I disagree with her on all three points. What were some of things she said that could "only be explained by the existence of God"?

[Twiddler]

Interesting. Being a Christian, I would have to say that for the most part I disagree with her on all three points. What were some of things she said that could only be explained by the existence of God?

She was mainly thinking of things such as why two related people (such as twins) can both get the same cancer and one will die from it and the other will live.  She thought it was unexplainable by science and that the reason one lived and one died was because that is how God wanted it to be.  I thought that it was because no two cases of cancer are alike, and even though the people were twins, that doesn't mean that the cancer's that they had were exactly the same when it comes to how aggressive it was and the stage it was in.

She also discussed how she thought that a majority of the time, that people who have children with special needs (my brother has autism) are typically much more able to take care of that kind of child.  Almost as if they were chosen by God to raise these children.  I just thought that this perception that she had was because of how much more difficult it was for the parents to raise a special needs child, so they had to put forward the traits that would be best to raise this child.  But then years down the road it looks like they were "destined" to raise a special needs child because of their traits, when maybe those traits were a product of the hardships and trials that the parents endured along the way.

However, I will also admit this, my mother isn't the most scientifically-minded person.  I'm not saying that she's not smart (she is in her own right), but science isn't her strong-point.  That might be also contributing to what I tend to disagree with her about.

[skurry]

I just got home yesterday from visiting my parents. My mother asked my wife what the FSM emblem was on my car and my wife told her to ask me. My mother has always been one of those people that assumes I actually believe in a god but that I am mad at him and atheism is my rebellion... for the last 12 years. So she asked me about it and over a couple of beers I explained FSM briefly and my view of the world, society, and the universe. She walked in thinking she was armed in the conversation with everything she KNOWS about god and religion. I think she walked away with many thoughts to ponder.

She brought up prayer and said if my son got sick I would pray to god and he would listen. (overseer)
I said why would god make my son sick in the first place?
Well if he was you would pray.
I would have internal thoughts hoping for him to be better, yes. I may even find myself in the chapel of the hospital, but not to pray to a god, rather to have a place to think. If someone hears voices when they pray, it's either you sub conscious or you need to get checked out. You can find answers when "praying" (trying to play to her perceptions), but it's no different than meditation, you had the answers all the time, you just had to focus and think through.

If monkey's evolved at the same time we did why aren't they as advanced as us?
They took a different path, and who is to say we are more advanced? Yes we have technology, but we are also the first species who has the ability to wipe out their entire civilization. Humans may not be the most efficient beings from an evolution stand point.

Where do morals come from then?
Based from a quote in a book a recently read; If you think that in the absense of god that you would murder and steal, than you are not the kind of person I would want to be around. If you admit that without god you could still be moral, than you have already defeated your argument.
Morals aren't part of evolution...
Sure they are, evolution is based on ensuring that your genes keep being passed on. In order to do this, you have to make sure those in your "tribe" survive and live well. This makes way to charity and kindness. Also, even monkeys know that if you wrong someone you can expect retribution from the one you wronged and the entire pack. They do this as self defense, an one would be wise not to do wrong to another for the same reason.

Don't you want your child to think someone is watching over them so that he doesn't do wrong?
Nope. I want my child to do right, because he wants to do right, and not do wrong because he knows it is wrong.

My friend's grandmother is from Germany and gave us a collection of original fairy tales translated to English. If you aren't aware, many fairy tales, especially German ones, are originally very gruesome and violent. I half joked to my mom the next day that since we won't be reading our child the bible, this book would work for us in the scaring and scarring of our child. She said that there is no violence or anything that would scar a child in the bible. I advised her to go reread the bible.

My mother thought I was an atheism out of spite and without knowledge. I think she is analyzing her own faith now (which wasn't my goal) and now has a stronger respect for my beliefs and how I will raise my child.

To be honest, I rarely have to explain my beliefs (or lack there of) to anyone because I don't bring it up to random people. If someone starts talking religion to me, I usually say that I don't wish to have a conversation about religion at the moment. This usually shuts people up without question. My mother and father are the only ones to ever bring it up to me or criticize me about it.  My father once said that posting that I was an atheist on my Fbook profile would come back to haunt me. I told him that a man should be respected for standing by his convictions and not hide who he is, he couldn't argue with that.

Did not mean for this comment to be this long...  

[Kylyssa]

She also discussed how she thought that a majority of the time, that people who have children with special needs (my brother has autism) are typically much more able to take care of that kind of child.  Almost as if they were chosen by God to raise these children.  I just thought that this perception that she had was because of how much more difficult it was for the parents to raise a special needs child, so they had to put forward the traits that would be best to raise this child.  But then years down the road it looks like they were "destined" to raise a special needs child because of their traits, when maybe those traits were a product of the hardships and trials that the parents endured along the way.

Unfortunately, just as many crap parents as great parents have special needs children.  Many special needs children end up in the foster care system, abandoned by their crap parents.  And frankly, I think that the average parent rises to the occasion and provides the necessary care and attention for their special needs child.  It's due to paternal and maternal love, a rather common phenomenon.

[Tanker]

Well first on predestination. If god plans everything that means all the bad in the world is his plan as well. Either god plans everything or he plans nothing. Often the subject of Satan's influence will come into it. Well if "gods plan" can be affected by Satan it's neither a good plan nor is God omnipotent. There are ohter holes but to me these are 2 of the biggest.

On the second part, sometimes as an Atheist you have to be comfortable saying "I don't know". Theists often have then benifit of the god of the gaps, if something s not clearly understood "god did it." The silly part is alot of the formerly unexplained things in the universe now have explinations. Nearly everything has a reasonable explination now. Even if the explination changes that' ok because science and understanding is not unchanging as we learn more about the universe we are alowed to apraise or understanding. This is a drawback for amy Theists since thier holy books are the "word of God and perfect" they must either admit their holy book is wrong and there for their religion or choose to be willfully ignorant and left behind. Good examples would be the Earth being a sphere and the Universe NOT being geo-centric.

On the third part, Curio made a good point and there is a great youtube video from the atheist experience called, I believe "the best caller ever" Which I don't feel like looking up but recomed you do. Basicly what about all the people being prayed for who die or get sick and what about all the people who aren't being prayed for who don't get sick or get better when they do. I from a pretty secular family if I was to get sick no one from my imediate family would pray and few if any from my extended would. Or the fact that I was In iraq for 29 months and had MUCH MUCH fewer prayers directed at me specificly then some of my religious comrades who were injured or died, I had relatively minor injuries (a couple minor concussions and some hearing loss). Compared to what some of my Religious friends from religious families and communities had happen to them. Prayer means NOTHING.

On your last point. I'm going to assume thatyou are relatively young and while I don't know what kind of community you live in but it may possibly be a good idea to stay "in the closet" at least untill you are a little older. While I don't doubt your mother loves you she may be ashamed of you lack of faith. Many religious parents see it as a failure on their part and sadly so do many of their peers. I personally am not too overt about being an Atheist I have never hidden it either, but like I stated ealier my family is secular. It's not as though you have to announce to the world that you're an Atheist. You may want to keep it semi quite untill you move out on your own. I would however say that you shoulden't be force to go to church or religious functions that you don't want to go to. (weddings and funerals aside)

It can be incredable difficult to be an Atheist in America so I recomend you take time and make sure you understand what you believe and more importantly WHY you believe it. I am still ocasionally cought being wrong about my beliefs, which just allows me to reevaluate them. Good luck to ypu and I hope it works out well for you.

[Reginus]

Just a few thoughts in response to Tanker. As a Christian, these beliefs make the most sense to me:

First part: In my view, God doesn't dictate everything that happens in the universe. He has given us the gift of free will so that we can choose love over the sin created by Satan. With this said, he has infinite intelligence and knowledge, so he has a "plan" for every combination of choices we make.

Second part: Most of the arguments for a god are purely philisophical, and cannot be science based, as the "observations" as to if God exists are different for everyone. I do not see how these philisophical arguments could be proven or disproven by a new scientific finding.

As for problems between science and holy books, there are a couple of things we must consider. First, I think there are many parts of the bible that are metaphorical, hyperbole, or otherwise not intended to be taken literally. For example, the bible describes hell as a lake of fiery brimstone, but also a dark pit. These are contradictary, which leads me to believe that it is not intended to imply that hell is actually a lake of fire, but rather to say that hell is a very bad place to be. Likewise with the story of creation, the point is not that the world was created in 6 days (by the way, I think somewhere in the bible it says that a thousand years are but a day to god,) but that God is the creator of the universe and everything that he created was wonderful, up until he created man. The bible is not intended to be used as a guide to science or the way the universe is, but to be used as a guide as to how to be a follower of Christ.

Third part: Quite frankly, I think that the belief that prayer some how changes the future, is one of the silliest beliefs that a fair number of Christians have. First of all, this makes the assumption that God does not already know exactly what everyone is thinking and feeling, and that he does not know what is best. Secondly, just imagine what the consequences would be if this was actually true. God would be the equivalent to a cosmic vending machine (10 minutes of prayer to win a free car next week, 25 minutes to help Uncle George recover from brain cancer). Rather than this silliness, I believe that prayer is a tool that helps Christians develop a relationship with God

[buttercupbaby]

One of my friends who is going through a particularly bad time with a health issue posted on my facebook "everything happens for a reason".   I didn't have the heart to debate her as she is trying to find a reason for her bad luck and this neurological malady they can't seem to diagnose on her.  

But I feel the exact opposite.   My philosophy is "shit happens"   and that's that.   Bad things happen for no apparent reason at all and if something good happens to come out of it, its just dumb luck, not some grand scheme designed by a creator.    It sucks to feel gagged of my opinion all the time because I don't have the heart to hurt people's feelings.   I need a set of balls, I guess.

[Kylyssa]

One of my friends who is going through a particularly bad time with a health issue posted on my facebook "everything happens for a reason".   I didn't have the heart to debate her as she is trying to find a reason for her bad luck and this neurological malady they can't seem to diagnose on her.  

But I feel the exact opposite.   My philosophy is "shit happens"   and that's that.   Bad things happen for no apparent reason at all and if something good happens to come out of it, its just dumb luck, not some grand scheme designed by a creator.    It sucks to feel gagged of my opinion all the time because I don't have the heart to hurt people's feelings.   I need a set of balls, I guess.

As an atheist who is going through a bunch of nasty health issues/financial issues it irritates the crap out of me when people tell me "everything happens for a reason" or "I'll pray for you."  But worst of all is "you deserve it, just accept Jesus and this stuff wouldn't happen to you."

[Miss Anthrope]

Hey Twiddler, I went through (and still do) the same things with my mom. It always burns me up that she'll rant on about how Christians are so persecuted and how the liberals want to make it so that she can't spout her beliefs to everyone, but then she wants to see everything that goes against her beliefs censored ,including me; she always tries to convince me not to express my beliefs and views when I'm visiting and her christian friends come over. Much to her chagrin, I don't listen (though I might start to simply becasue I'm sick of getting in arguments that don't go anywhere and often end with the other person saying, condescendingly, that "Someday God will reveal himself to you, and then you will understand". So annoying. That kind of thing also perplexes me: It's like they're saying "I understand completely and god gives me all the answers...but I can't explain any of it to you." I can only imagine that in the privacy of their minds they're also thinking "Crap, I don't have any freakin' answers." when they default to such flimsy argument stoppers.

Do you still live at home? If so, just be content in knowing that eventually you won't have to deal with that kind of thing (as much).

Sure they are, evolution is based on ensuring that your genes keep being passed on. In order to do this, you have to make sure those in your "tribe" survive and live well. This makes way to charity and kindness. Also, even monkeys know that if you wrong someone you can expect retribution from the one you wronged and the entire pack. They do this as self defense, an one would be wise not to do wrong to another for the same reason.

One example of morals in the animal kingdom I've always liked is vampire bats: If some of the bats aren't able to get enough food, the other bats will regurgitate a little to feed those bats. But if a bat is greedy and doesn't want to contribute, the other bats will remember smf will shun him the next time HE goes hungry!

[karadan]

Well at least you were able to speak with your mother in a cordial manner, unlike this unfortunate guy

[youtube:2zi4tcla]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo[/youtube:2zi4tcla]

[Reginus]

Well at least you were able to speak with your mother in a cordial manner, unlike this unfortunate guy :crazy:
Btw, I love how the dad just sits there and does nothing.

[hismikeness]

As an atheist who is going through a bunch of nasty health issues/financial issues it irritates the crap out of me when people tell me "everything happens for a reason" or "I'll pray for you."  But worst of all is "you deserve it, just accept Jesus and this stuff wouldn't happen to you."

Everything happens for a reason is, to me, very similar and equally bowel voiding as "God works in mysterious ways" or "If it's God's will" type comments. I can't stand to hear that. When I do, I remember who it was, and if my relationship with that person is either really good (where I can be sarcastic to no end) or really bad (where I don't necessarily give two kinds of shit), when something bad happens to them I will respond, "Wow, those acts of God really stick it in and break it off, don't they?" Usually, they have no response.

As far as

"you deserve it, just accept Jesus and this stuff wouldn't happen to you."

if someone said that to me when I was looking for a little human comfort after something bad happened to me or my family, I would probably be irate.

Hismikeness