The Arrogant Card

[Sophus]

Why is it whenever you make a joke about religion there's always some prudish fundie fuddy duddy that has to throw a hissy fit and call you arrogant? :brick:  :brick:  Sorry, I just need someone to feel my pain right now. He acts like his feelings are hurt and now people think I'm the bad guy. I wish people would grow up.

[Neoncamouflage]

I know, I make a joke about Atheism, we all laugh. They joke about Atheism, we all laugh. I joke about religion...."That's not funny."

[thiolsulfate]

It's like a variant of Godwin's law.

[joeactor]

I understand your frustration, believe me.  I've made many a jest in my day that was taken the wrong way.

But, seriously... you are making fun of something that these folks have based their entire existence on.
Not easy to get them to change, and jokes may not grease the wheels as much as you'd like.

They take it personally because it is personal to them.
Nothing like challenging someone's world view to whip up an angry mob!

(where's a torch smiley when you need one),
JoeActor

[curiosityandthecat]

Exactly why I surround myself with non-fundies. Or, if there's a fundie around, and I feel the need to poke fun at religion, I'll go so over the top and make it so ridiculous that they can't help but not retort, lest they look crazy, themselves.

Here's a good read for you. Actually, I think all of us should read it. It reminds us that we are hated, and often times serve the same function that Jews and communists once did.

Also, people are douches; there is that.  

[Enoch Root]

I've never in my life heard someone call another person arrogant during the course of a debate without being guilty of it themselves.  Doesn't matter what the subject of discussion is.  In fact usually the target of the arrogant label is relatively innocent of that crime compared to the accuser.

Personally, I rather enjoy the term militant.  As in, that person's a militant atheist.  I had to recently ask, what exactly is a militant atheist?  Really outspoken atheists write books and make Youtube videos and create web comics.  If they're extremely belligerent, they'll put up a bus ad--and that'll get everyone pissed off.  

Churches, by comparison, spend vast amounts of money on evangelism campaigns.  They knock on peoples' doors to hand out gospel pamphlets.  They angrily protest whatever the gay people happen to be doing these days.  They are a massive political force in the US.  And they'll happily claim that all their opponents will burn in hell for eternity.

Who's militant?

[JillSwift]

Let's do an arrogance test:

• I don't believe in a god or gods.
• There is a God, all powerful creator of the cosmos. Unmoved prime mover, omniscient and omnipotent, giver of moral law. He cares about me, personally, and needs me to worship him.

Choose the arrogance.

[joeactor]

Let's do an arrogance test:

• I don't believe in a god or gods.
• There is a God, all powerful creator of the cosmos. Unmoved prime mover, omniscient and omnipotent, giver of moral law. He cares about me, personally, and needs me to worship him.

Choose the arrogance.

... not to be arrogant, but your presentation of the two choices is a bit biased.

#1 is not always presented in such a safe, clinical manner.

It's when it turns into "You must be an idiot for believing in such fairy tales." that the arrogance shows.
Calling others delusional, insane, misguided or ignorant can bring up some negative feelings... huh, imagine that!

Statements about one's self tend to be less controversial than statements about others, yes/no?

#2 would be better stated as:
I believe there is a god.

Empathy - it's what's for lunch,
JoeActor

[JillSwift]

... not to be arrogant, but your presentation of the two choices is a bit biased.

Nope. Both statements are the boiled-down version of regular atheism and regular Abrahamic religious belief.

#1 is not always presented in such a safe, clinical manner.

In public/social situations, that's all the comment I bother to have. It invariably gets me called arrogant. (What, you think any simple statement like the one I made covers all bases?) However, it is the basic, unfettered stance of atheism.

It's when it turns into "You must be an idiot for believing in such fairy tales." that the arrogance shows.
Calling others delusional, insane, misguided or ignorant can bring up some negative feelings... huh, imagine that!

Not sure why the sarcasm thing here. Also not sure why you chose to inject this into your dressing down of my presentation, as I did not so much as allude to such a thing.

Statements about one's self tend to be less controversial than statements about others, yes/no?

Irrelevant.

#2 would be better stated as:
I believe there is a god.

I must disagree. Anyone who is going to go about believing in any God of Abraham religion believes in what I stated. It says so in their religious texts.

I think my point stands rather well, despite any emotional reaction to it.

Empathy - it's what's for lunch,

Empathy for others does not imply a need for tip-toeing around their beliefs. I spent no time insulting believers, just in comparing two beliefs in search of arrogance.

[joeactor]

Jill,

Sorry about the sarcasm - I'm a bit moody from being up since 4am (power outage - sheesh!)

As to the rest of your reply, I'm just not seeing it.
Seems you're making a lot of assumptions about both theists and atheists to reach your conclusion.

All I was attempting to point out is that your two example statements are not even in the same ballpark.

Perhaps someone else can explain it better than I.

Fuzzy Logic Day,
JoeActor

[JillSwift]

Joe;

I'd be happy to hear what assumptions I've made.

I've already pointed out that I've taken the basic Atheist stance and added nothing, and taken a basic Abrahamic stance, as demonstrated in their holy books, and added nothing.

I'm not arguing the question of "can an atheist or theist be, individually, arrogant", nor am I arguing about motives that can cause arrogance. I'm just pointing out that, at its most basic, an Abrahamic religious believer has chosen a very arrogant belief, where an atheist has nothing to be arrogant about so far as the belief goes - because it's a null.

[Enoch Root]

It's all in the wording.

Let's do the arrogance test:

1.  There is no god.  I am the pinnacle of millions of years of evolution.  The only moral authority governing my life is myself.
2.  There is a God, I am insignificant next to him, and am unworthy of anything except for eternal punishment.  Yet because of his immense grace he provided a way for every human to enjoy an eternity of paradise.

It's not exactly the most unbiased "test".

[JillSwift]

It's all in the wording.

Let's do the arrogance test:

1.  There is no god.  I am the pinnacle of millions of years of evolution.  The only moral authority governing my life is myself.
2.  There is a God, I am insignificant next to him, and am unworthy of anything except for eternal punishment.  Yet because of his immense grace he provided a way for every human to enjoy an eternity of paradise.

It's not exactly the most unbiased "test".

Yes, the wording is important. You've used words that change the meaning of the test.

Considering one's self to be a pinnacle of evolution would be to fail to understand evolution (there are no pinnacles, just current working models). It's also not part of being an atheist to accept evolution and is thus an assumption. Making a knowledge statement about god is also not part of being an atheist, it's the lack of belief in a god that makes one an atheist (that's why there are agnostic atheists) and again is thus an assumption. Not all atheists believe in one's self being the only moral authority, so that, too, is an assumption. Pare off those three assumptions and you end up back at "I don't believe in a god or gods."

Pointing out the self-hatred part of the Abrahamic religions does not compromise the fact that this super-being is still concerned about you as an individual human amid a cosmos vast. It's still a matter of being the central focus of the great plan. Even if you're busy self-flagellating over your unworthiness before such a powerful being, you're still considering yourself important enough to so much as be noticed by that being. Again, this is all explained in the holy books in question, and is thus not an assumption.

So, again, one can only conclude that it's more arrogant to be a believer in an Abrahamic religion than it is to be an atheist - without precluding the ability for any individual to be arrogant about their motives, reasoning or other beliefs.

[Kylyssa]

Exactly why I surround myself with non-fundies. Or, if there's a fundie around, and I feel the need to poke fun at religion, I'll go so over the top and make it so ridiculous that they can't help but not retort, lest they look crazy, themselves.

Here's a good read for you. Actually, I think all of us should read it. It reminds us that we are hated, and often times serve the same function that Jews and communists once did.

Also, people are douches; there is that.  

Indeed.  What part of the country do you live in again and what's the weather like?

[curiosityandthecat]

Indeed.  What part of the country do you live in again and what's the weather like?

I live in a little oasis of liberalism and critical thought in southeast Ohio. Athens, home of Ohio University. The vast, vast majority of people I know are either agnostic, atheist or apatheist. Occasionally the religious folk will chime up, but since they're outnumbered they basically just keep it under wraps.

Summers are hot as balls and the winters will freeze your nipples off. Aside from that, very pleasant.