The bible

[Kestrel]

Please consider this post strictly pre-emptive.

Thanks.  

The instructions that came with my laptop.
War and Peace.
The Cat in the Hat.
The Koran.
The Lord of the Rings.
Avalon.
The Story of “O”.
Neutering your Cat. (A do-it-yourselfers-guide)
The Holy Bible.
The Art of War.
It.
How to score with chicks and stick them with the tab.
Curious George.

…and on and on.

My point being that they’re all just books. Nothing more.

Now, before any of you call the S.P.C.A., ask me to be a spell caster in your next D&D tournament, condemn me to hell, offer me a spanking, fly a commercial airliner into my living room or ask to borrow The Cat in the Hat, (You can’t. It’s mine. Get your own.),  I will freely and publicly admit to using the bible as the reference source on information in regard to my faith.

I’ve heard it all a gazillion times. “Book of myths”, fairy tales”, “man made”, “contradictions”… I get it. Of course, if you are of that opinion(s), you are more than welcome to it.

Since I was 16 or 17 yrs old, I’ve made it a habit to read The Lord of the Rings, at least once a year. (It’s a thing…)
Anyway, as I type this, I notice my Betta, Calypso, swimming happily (I think), in it’s bowl. I’m certain that Calypso has no idea how fortunate he is that I don’t get my betta care tips from The Rings trilogy. Because if I did, I’d take him from his tank, belt a straight pin on him, toss him out on the sidewalk, tell him to hook up with some elves and go save the world from evil jewelry in a volcano. “Good luck buddy!”

My point obviously is, that if I’m not going to get fish care tips from fantasy fiction, I’m not going to get tips on spirituality from a source that I feel isn’t spiritual.
It’s my right.
Just as it would be another’s right to search for God in the pages of Curious George. I am in no position to say that person is wrong.
It’s simple. If I am willing to give that respect, I’m reasonable in asking for it in return.
At any rate, one of the indicators that I use to justify my use of the bible, are the things that it doesn’t state.
For example; It claims to be the inspired word of God. It claims itself for instruction. And yet it doesn’t say to use its written word to convince. Or to roll up tightly ye olde sacred scrolls and beat the unbeliever among you about the head and shoulder area until the unbeliever becomes a believer. That omission is more than a little telling for me.

The reason for this post, is that I feel I’m bringing something different to the table of Christian belief. I’ll not say it’s new, because I don’t think it is. I won’t say they are my original thoughts and/or ideas, because I get them from the bible. But they are different enough, that I feel some sort of explanation of where I am coming from is warranted.

I won’t go through how I became a follower of Jesus. In a public venue it seems a bit inappropriate and is too much like that witnessing thing that Christians seem to love to do. For some reason, witnessing always struck me as something from an AA meeting. Which is fine for AA meetings. Just not here.
For me it’s rather intimate. I’m always happy to discuss it one on one, if someone’s interested.
I just don’t think it correct to wave it around like a flag.
What I will say is that my faith did not stem from grief, loss, addiction, low point or fear of death.

My agenda.
I believe that I have learned powerful Scriptural truths, as applied to the Christian faith. I feel that for nearly 2K years, Christians have had it wrong. I hold no allusion that I am something more than anyone else.
I have no hotline to God.
While I consider myself more than reasonably intelligent, I’m no genius. But I’m no slouch either.
I have no clear idea why I see things so damn differently.
If at the end of things, I find I’ve done something good, I’ll not take the credit.
If I’ve done wrong, I’ll shoulder the blame.
I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility in regard to the things I have learned and it is that responsibility that drives me.
I have no illusion that what I speak of can wipe away 2000 yrs worth of ego driven discord, by my brethren.
That’s God’s job.

My goal is simple and just this side of impossible.
To do what I can to ease the pain and hypocrisy that my confused fellow believers toss around like rice.
To find any believer who cannot seem to reconcile the things that they know they feel and conflicting doctrines taught to them by so-called scholars.

Why don’t I just go to a Christian forum and say all this?
I’m not welcome there. Sure, I’ll get a few posts in, but after that, I’m told to leave. Banned and posts removed. I’m no longer welcome in Christian churches. (I’ll just leave it at that.)
I strive to be respectful, clear and exhibit impeccable etiquette. Doesn’t seem to matter to the fundies.
Let me tell you something. You aint seen Christian venom until you profess to be one and they’re convinced you’re the devil.

As a result, I have been far more welcomed at atheist boards.
Also, I have no interest in bringing “lost sheep” back to the fold. If a former believer has chosen a different path, it’s their business not mine.

There is something that the atheist or agnostic can get out of my discussions. More than a few ways to counter the Christian stance, that perhaps haven’t been thought of. It’s yet another irony, that an atheist can use my arguments against a theist with somewhat devastating effect.

I was approached at one time by an atheist who asked me if I would consider actually writing a book for atheists against contemporary Christian theology. It was her opinion that it would sell very well. I told her that considering that I believe I am only repeating God’s word, that the moment I took one red cent, I become the hypocrite that I spend so much time and effort railing against. I told her she was welcome to have at it. I never heard anything more about it.

I do not proselytize being that I feel faith is not a choice, it would be rather silly for me to do so.

One more thing; my main targets are fundamentalists and evangelicals, there is a difference but the gap between them grows thinner every year.
Don’t get me wrong. There are plenty of Christians out there who don’t treat me as some sort of pariah. In my opinion their theology is wrong but their practice is wonderful.

There’s too many robots in my faith.

I don’t run into robots so much with atheists.

If after this posts the admin(s) don’t mind me sticking around, I’d be thankful.
If you would rather I not be here, I’ll go quietly.

Thanks for your patience.

“Lord, protect me from your followers.”

[McQ]

Nice post, Kestral. Thanks for taking the time to lucidly explain your position. I can respect your thoughts on this and understand how in a christian forum, you would be eyed with suspicion. That's a shame.

Thanks for sharing that.

[MikeyV]

The instructions that came with my laptop.
...
snipped for brevity by MikeyV

I have a rather eclectic collection of books myself. I like to think it shows my broad interest in the written word, but it could just be proving that I'm scatter-brained

I am in no position to say that person is wrong.

That is where you differ from fundamentalists of all religions. It's refreshing.

It’s simple. If I am willing to give that respect, I’m reasonable in asking for it in return.

I agree

And yet it doesn’t say to use its written word to convince. Or to roll up tightly ye olde sacred scrolls and beat the unbeliever among you about the head and shoulder area until the unbeliever becomes a believer. That omission is more than a little telling for me.

This is probably the only part of your post that I take any sort of issue with. If you will indulge me, I have more than a passing knowledge of scripture.

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. - Deuteronomy  13:6-10

Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. - 2 Chronicles 15:13

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. - Psalm 2:8-9

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. - Matthew 28:19

Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. - Mark 16:15

Those are pretty straight forward passages. There are, of course, more ambiguous passages that hint at the same thing. Evangelize, witness to, and kill unbelievers.

I’ll not say it’s new, because I don’t think it is.

It's not new. Read almost anything by John Shelby Spong, the former Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Newark. I highly recommend Why Christianity Must Change or Die: A Bishop Speaks to Believers In Exile, A New Christianity for a New World: Why Traditional Faith Is Dying and How a New Faith Is Being Born, and Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture. This site: Jesus is a Liberal has a decent selection of books by progressive Christians. Just for kicks, check out the "Good Christian Hate Mail" link for some choice emails they have recieved from their "brothers and sisters" in faith.

Why don’t I just go to a Christian forum and say all this?
I’m not welcome there. Sure, I’ll get a few posts in, but after that, I’m told to leave. Banned and posts removed.

Something you have in common with most atheists.

I’m no longer welcome in Christian churches. (I’ll just leave it at that.)

Have you tried the Unitarians? I know atheists that go to those churches. I think the criteria for being kicked out of a Unitarian church is you have to kill someone or be a beligerent fundamentalist. They think much as you do.

If after this posts the admin(s) don’t mind me sticking around, I’d be thankful.

Every atheist board I've been on contains several Christians. As a rule, we don't ban people. We have open minds, and are open to other people's ideas. I think I'm safe in saying that as long as your posts are along these lines, you won't ever be banned.

If you would rather I not be here, I’ll go quietly.

Don't you dare leave. You are interesting. And unlike the robots (I prefer the term Jesus Crispies - as Jesus has fried their brains) you actually have something interesting to say.

Welcome

“Lord, protect me from your followers.”

My favorite is "I don't mind God, but I hate his fan club!"

[Kestrel]

McQ,
Thank you.

MikeyV; This is probably the only part of your post that I take any sort of issue with. If you will indulge me, I have more than a passing knowledge of scripture.

Of  course.
It’s been my experience that some atheists and former believers have a more complete knowledge of Scripture than many believers do.

As for the examples you cite, they are certainly clear and explicit. However with the exception of the Psalm that you quoted, they do not apply to gentiles as they are specific to the Hebrew.
The first 2 examples for the Hebrew Law. The Law being specific to the Hebrew discounting the gentile.

The Psalm you quote is speaking to Christ. Not his followers.

Jesus' commission is given to eleven Jewish apostles, in regard to Jews by Jesus.
The gentiles had no representative apostle until Paul.

I have checked out the Unitarians in the past.

Thanks for the kind response. Good to meet you.

[Whitney]

Kestrel, you are welcome to stick around.  It will be nice to have someone with a little bit different view of things.

[Kestrel]

Kestrel, you are welcome to stick around.  It will be nice to have someone with a little bit different view of things.

Thanks!