No choice for faith.

[Kestrel]

Kes, could you elaborate just a bit more...."not supposed to believe" doesn't seem to have much to do with superiority complexes.

Alright.
“Free will”, as the term is bandied about, is a farce.
I didn’t choose to be born. I didn’t choose my gender, etc. Were it up to most folks, they wouldn’t choose to die.
In other words, the idea of free will is fine, right up to the point where it bumps into someone else’s “free will” or just everyday circumstance.

It is my stance in regard to my faith that one cannot choose to believe in the god of the bible. In fact the bible spends most a great deal of time emphasizing the point. Interestingly enough most Christians disregard this fact. (That’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms.)

Once a believer realizes that they did not choose to believe, that the very faith they profess comes from god and not themselves, it levels the playing field.
Ignorant doctrines and misunderstandings such as “eternal punishment” and trinity’s logically crumble into nothing. As a result of my determination that belief is not a choice, my faith is logically unassailable.

Okay. For clarity’s sake I’ll give a bit of background information as to how I come to my conclusions;

I use the bible as my source of information regarding my faith.
In my over ten years time of posting on message boards, I’ve heard all the arguments. So for those who are reading this and feel so inclined as to inform me of my “delusion” or my need to “believe in Santa Clause”, allow me to save us both some time;

Faith is just that. Faith.
It is only an avenue on which the timeless question of “Why am I here?”, is explored.
At the end of the day the “delusional” argument doesn’t work with someone who claims to have faith as opposed to knowledge. Why? Because in order to bring the charge of delusion to the table, one must have knowledge to replace said delusion. And unless I missed the report on CNN that said the meaning of life has been found, you, me and everyone else with an idea or belief are on equal ground. Anyone who insists on pushing the point, I toss into the same bin as ignorant fundamental Christians.
A few years ago, I was having a board discussion, when an atheist popped in and implied that he was more qualified to speak on the meaning of life because he had a degree in philosophy.
I congratulated him on his achievement, then pointed out that he was on level with any illiterate dirt farmer. And that is a fact. It’s not a put down. A shut down, maybe. But not a put down.
In my not so humble opinion, any sentient being who can ask themselves, “Why am I here?” has a right to draw their own conclusions because as of yet no definitive answer has been shown to be satisfactory to all people.

That being said;

While I do not have the right to put down or condemn another for their beliefs, I do[/b] have the right to … (here it comes…) , intellectually pound the ever-living crap out of one who professes an understanding of a faith shared.
That shared faith being Christianity.

The Christian theists dilemma in regard to the declarations of their faith(s), is the fact that they claim that they know their faith to be true. Which opens the door, and reasonably so, for ridicule from people who do not believe as they.
What almost all contemporary Christians refuse to understand is that, the moment they declare faith fact, faith ceases to exist. Leaving them with nothing but vacant slack jawed expressions.  That makes them and their faith, targets. And targets make poor impressions.
I have a few ideas as to why they fall into this pit, the biggest cause being their ego’s. But that’s a whole other thread.

It follows that if one cannot make a decision to believe then one cannot blame another for not believing. Nor can they take credit.
As I said earlier, I get my information from the same place most Christians get theirs, the bible.
In order for me to elaborate further on how I’ve come to the conclusion, I would have to start tossing out verse. Something I’ll never do unless specifically asked to do so by non-believers.

[Whitney]

Thanks, I think understand what you were meaning before now.

[ImpaledSkier]

Once a believer realizes that they did not choose to believe, that the very faith they profess comes from god and not themselves, it levels the playing field.

I didn't choose not to believe. I just don't believe, just like I didn't choose my favorite color, or movie. They just happened. Does it mean god doesn't want to fill me with faith? or he's just going to let me chill, doing my thing until ultimately he sends me to hell? are you saying our fate is predestined based on whether god professes love to us or not?

[McQ]

Kestrel, thank you for explaining further. I really wasn't grasping your meaning and didn't want to assume I knew what you meant earlier. You've cleared it up.

[Kestrel]

I didn't choose not to believe. I just don't believe, just like I didn't choose my favorite color, or movie. They just happened.

Right. My point exactly.
As you state, you didn’t choose disbelief.
Making non-belief a default setting, as it were.
Now undoubtedly on this board is one or more people who were believers at one time or another. Which is not what we’re speaking of here.
All I’m saying is that it is my position that we are born without faith.

Does it mean god doesn't want to fill me with faith?

Yes. That’s what it means.

or he's just going to let me chill, doing my thing until ultimately he sends me to hell?

Hell?!  Eeww. That smacks of fundy Christian droppings. Don’t get any on me.  
The question is certainly reasonable. Seems absurd doesn’t it?
Let’s see;
God chooses those to believe in him, leaving others ignorant, he then condemns those that he left disbelieving to an eternal state of punishment.
You’re right!! It is absurd.
Thank god it doesn’t work that way.

I never said anything about “hell”.
The hell doctrine is a byproduct of at least 900 yrs of believer’s insistence on applying their sense of justice over gods. It is one of at least 4 major adopted doctrines that have twisted Christianity into the ground.

I’ll address hell further in subsequent posts. If anyone is interested.

are you saying our fate is predestined based on whether god professes love to us or not?

It depends what you mean by fate.
If you’re inquiring about ones eternal condition, then my answer is no.
I’m saying that it is my belief that faith comes from God. That we do not have a choice of whether to believe or not.
I don’t just say that because it feels good. I say it because the scripture that I use to get my information and what I witness around me confirms it.
I’m not a “because I say so”, kinda guy.

Keep in mind, that my position(s) come from what I glean from my understanding of my faith.
I’m not responsible for someone’s disbelief nor the ridiculously confused positions and conclusions of my fellow believers, who put themselves in the untenable position of having to prove their claims. I avoid this completely by having the audacity to believe that God is sovereign.
What I do feel responsible for, is as complete an understanding of my faith as I can achieve, and to share what I know with other believers who are bothered by the inconsistencies and flat-out hypocrisy’s that contemporary Christianity espouses.

What I find somewhat disheartening, is that too few are truly bothered by it.

FYI if anyone’s interested; Normally I wouldn’t have added the above italicized blurb into a post such as this. However, experience dictates that it behooves me to establish my position as soon as possible when engaging a fresh board.

[Kestrel]

laetusatheos & McQ,
You're welcome.

[joeactor]

Hey Kestrel,

Ya know, we're almost on the same page (just offset by a bit).

I applaud your noting the difference between knowledge and faith.  By that token, since you claim no knowledge of God, you'd be an Agnostic... and since you believe in God, you're a Theist.  And I thought I'd be the only Agnostic Theist here!

Where we diverge is on two critical points:

1) belief in the bible/christ/etc.
2) belief that god determines who believes

For me, belief is a choice that each of us makes.  We choose to believe or we choose not to believe.  But it is our choice to make.

Since I'm an Agnostic Theist, I choose to believe in god.

My question to Atheists and Theists is this:
  Why is it so difficult or uncomfortable to say "I Don't Know"?

[ImpaledSkier]

My question to Atheists and Theists is this:
Why is it so difficult or uncomfortable to say "I Don't Know"?

So, being an Agnostic Theist, which is a new term for me, you're saying you believe that the knowledge is unattainable about god, but you believe in him anyways.

I believe there is no god.

Theists believe there is a god.

There is nothing about knowledge in any of those statements.

Asking me personally, I could say I don't know for sure if there is a god or not, but I would say that the knowledge is unattainable. This is because I don't believe in god. I guess I'm an agnostic atheist...but that just seems redundant. I'll stick with atheist true and true.

I think to answer your question, being a theist or atheist everyone has that little "I don't know" in them. Because no one will "know" until they die. We're just skipping the semantics. People who claim to know that god exists, scare me, and don't seem to be very open minded and logical.

Since I'm an Agnostic Theist, I choose to believe in god.

How did you choose to believe in god? I know one day I didn't sit down and go, "I won't do it, I just will not believe." I sat down a went, "I can't do it, there nothing in me telling me there is a god, and no proof outside of me. I don't believe in god."

I hope those remarks I made are clear in someway. And that is just speaking for myself.

[ImpaledSkier]

It depends what you mean by fate.
If you’re inquiring about ones eternal condition, then my answer is no.
I’m saying that it is my belief that faith comes from God. That we do not have a choice of whether to believe or not.

Kestrel, I know this is hardly a fair question   , but why would god want there to be disbelievers? I know there is no way for you know this, but what is your position when it comes to your understanding of your faith?

[Whitney]

My question to Atheists and Theists is this:
  Why is it so difficult or uncomfortable to say "I Don't Know"?

I say I don't know about a lot of things.  I'm an atheist because I don't believe in a god since I find little to no reason to believe.  Yet, I'm agnostic because certain concepts of god are so undefined and uninvolved that we really can't know one way or the other.

[joeactor]

First off - great discussion all - I love a good philosophical debate ;-)

I guess I'm an agnostic atheist...but that just seems redundant. I'll stick with atheist true and true.

Gnostic and Agnostic both deal with Knowledge.
Theist and Atheist both deal with Belief.
... so that gives the four basic choices ...

People who claim to know that god exists, scare me, and don't seem to be very open minded and logical.

Abso-friggin-lutely.  No debate on that point!

How did you choose to believe in god?

From my perspective, we're dealing with the domains of Knowledge and Belief.  You can' choose what you know - you either know it or not.  You can choose what you do, and what you believe (IMHO).  For example, someone tells you they have a machine that can transport matter.  Without evidence available, you can choose to believe them, or choose not to believe them.  Why should belief in god be any different?

Or, to get totally recursive on you:

I choose to believe that belief is a choice.
 

[MommaSquid]

Hey Kestrel,
My question to Atheists and Theists is this:
  Why is it so difficult or uncomfortable to say "I Don't Know"?

I’m an atheist and I admit, I don’t know.  Here are some thoughts on why I don’t label myself an agnostic anymore:  

The god of the bible has human characteristics, and there are plenty of examples of terrible things happening in the bible at god’s behest or due to god’s direct action.  Why worship a god who is violent and spiteful?  I wouldn’t spend my life with a person who displayed those characteristics.  Why would an all knowing, loving god treat his favorite creation this way?  It doesn't make sense.

As a person, I would do anything to ease the suffering of others (whether they “deserve” it or not).  Clearly it is not in my power to ease all suffering, but if it were and I refused to use that power, that would make me a monster.  Since (IMHO) the Judeo-Christian god can be described in this manner, why worship this god?

Okay, so I dismiss the possibility of that version of god.  If some other version of god exists, I don’t believe he/she/it has human characteristics.  So how can I relate to this entity?  Well, I can’t so it doesn’t affect my life; why trouble myself over this possible, invisible entity?

Asking questions, going in circles; I’ve had enough of it.  It’s easier to be an atheist than to continue searching for answers that don’t exist.  Sure, I’d like to be proven wrong, but so far I haven’t been.  So until someone smarter than me comes up with answers, I’m fine with my position.

[ImpaledSkier]

For example, someone tells you they have a machine that can transport matter. Without evidence available, you can choose to believe them, or choose not to believe them. Why should belief in god be any different?

Well, if someone told me they had a machine that can transport matter, I wouldn't believe them. It wouldn't be a choice, I'd instinctively just not believe him. If he was a very convincing person I may be pursuaded to eventually believe him, but is that really a choice? It wouldn't be me saying, "Okay, I choose to believe you now." It'd be, "You made a good point, and now I believe you." I would never say, "Even though you make good points and I want to believe you, I choose to not believe." I would just believe.

I guess this might get down to a debate as to whether we really have choices. Say someone punches you in the face at a bar ( )one night. You are probably going to want to slug him right back. You may even feel it was an overwhelming feeling to do that, but say you don't. Was that a choice? Or was the 'feeling' to not punch him dictating your actions? This is kind of how I feel about the whole choosing to believe anything idea.

And on a side note: Those 4 choice you mentioned, can you have a Gnostic Atheist?

[Kestrel]

Hey Kestrel,

Ya know, we're almost on the same page (just offset by a bit).

I applaud your noting the difference between knowledge and faith.  By that token, since you claim no knowledge of God, you'd be an Agnostic... and since you believe in God, you're a Theist.  And I thought I'd be the only Agnostic Theist here!

Where we diverge is on two critical points:

1) belief in the bible/christ/etc.
2) belief that god determines who believes

For me, belief is a choice that each of us makes.  We choose to believe or we choose not to believe.  But it is our choice to make.

Since I'm an Agnostic Theist, I choose to believe in god.

My question to Atheists and Theists is this:
  Why is it so difficult or uncomfortable to say "I Don't Know"?

Agnostic Theist works for me.

[joeactor]

Hey I.S.,

I see what you mean with the Bar analogy.  We're down to splitting philosophical hairs - heck we might be agreeing and not know it!

And on a side note: Those 4 choice you mentioned, can you have a Gnostic Atheist?

Yes indeedy!  They believe there is no god, and also claim to know there is no god.  I've even run into a few, and they're equally as scary as a Gnostic Theist...