No choice for faith.

[Will]

I disagree.
Adam's doubt in regard to Gods commandment, judgement, is reflected in Adam's choice to disobey God. Also, God never tells Adam that He is[/b] God. To think otherwise is to add to scripture.
If you like, we can agree to disagree and put it on the shelf.

I don't think any human, Adam included, is supposed to know the true nature of god. The idea is that Adam believed in the existence of the creature we now know as god. Adam may not have called him god or known what he was, but he knew he was speaking to someone and understood that person to be real. I'm sure there was no doubt in Adam's mind that thevoice with which he spoke was real. That was what I meant.

Before I can even begin to tackle that one, I must state my case why there is no hell. I’m sure we’ll get to it, in the near future.

Shoot, but if it's the same argument as the mormons, you might be in for a real debate. I've actually converted mormans at my door.

Believers willingness to accept, “Because I say so.”, Is partially why the faith is in the mess it’s in. Let’s just say that I am of the Berean mindset, and encourage my fellow believers to search the scriptures, to see if these things are so. At the end of the day it is a believers responsibility as an individual to agree or not.

Sure.

[Kestrel]

Shoot, but if it's the same argument as the mormons, you might be in for a real debate. I've actually converted mormans at my door.

As Mormons use an amended* source of information than I do, I cannot speak to their theology.

No conversion worries here.  

*Edited for clarity.

[Kestrel]

Shoot, but if it's the same argument as the mormons, you might be in for a real debate.  

I don't know how the Mormons put forth their position, but I do know how I do it.

It starts with one easy question;

If there is a hell, and people who don't choose to believe in Christ go there for some eternal BBQ, then....why does Thomas get a pass?

[Kestrel]

No wonder they convert.
You stun them with 2 weeks of deafening silence.
 

[Scrybe]

The Christian theists dilemma in regard to the declarations of their faith(s), is the fact that they claim that they know their faith to be true. Which opens the door, and reasonably so, for ridicule from people who do not believe as they.
What almost all contemporary Christians refuse to understand is that, the moment they declare faith fact, faith ceases to exist. Leaving them with nothing but vacant slack jawed expressions.  That makes them and their faith, targets. And targets make poor impressions.
I have a few ideas as to why they fall into this pit, the biggest cause being their ego’s. But that’s a whole other thread.

Perfectly put.  Bravo.  I didn't realize I had a doppelganger on this forum… or, I guess since you were here first, I'm your doppelganger…  Hrm.  Anyway, this is a fantastic thread.  It's only been with in the past year or so that everything clicked for me and I felt the awe and wonder at seeing everything fall together spiritually.  After I followed the light of philosophy out of the cave of doctrine I discovered a new way of looking at the world and God.  It is as Martin Luther said when the Catholic church was all up in his grill telling him to recant: "Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen!"

Anyway, just wanted to chime in and say good job.  I hope Will comes back to this.  I love that guy.  

Oh and:

No wonder they convert.
You stun them with 2 weeks of deafening silence.

 

I love these forums.  I just wish they weren't so slow.  I guess not enough athiests are happy?  

[Naked4Jesus]

Kes, could you elaborate just a bit more...."not supposed to believe" doesn't seem to have much to do with superiority complexes.

Alright.
“Free will”, as the term is bandied about, is a farce.
I didn’t choose to be born. I didn’t choose my gender, etc. Were it up to most folks, they wouldn’t choose to die.
In other words, the idea of free will is fine, right up to the point where it bumps into someone else’s “free will” or just everyday circumstance.

It is my stance in regard to my faith that one cannot choose to believe in the god of the bible. In fact the bible spends most a great deal of time emphasizing the point. Interestingly enough most Christians disregard this fact. (That’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms.)

Once a believer realizes that they did not choose to believe, that the very faith they profess comes from god and not themselves, it levels the playing field.
Ignorant doctrines and misunderstandings such as “eternal punishment” and trinity’s logically crumble into nothing. As a result of my determination that belief is not a choice, my faith is logically unassailable.

Okay. For clarity’s sake I’ll give a bit of background information as to how I come to my conclusions;

I use the bible as my source of information regarding my faith.
In my over ten years time of posting on message boards, I’ve heard all the arguments. So for those who are reading this and feel so inclined as to inform me of my “delusion” or my need to “believe in Santa Clause”, allow me to save us both some time;

Faith is just that. Faith.
It is only an avenue on which the timeless question of “Why am I here?”, is explored.
At the end of the day the “delusional” argument doesn’t work with someone who claims to have faith as opposed to knowledge. Why? Because in order to bring the charge of delusion to the table, one must have knowledge to replace said delusion. And unless I missed the report on CNN that said the meaning of life has been found, you, me and everyone else with an idea or belief are on equal ground. Anyone who insists on pushing the point, I toss into the same bin as ignorant fundamental Christians.
A few years ago, I was having a board discussion, when an atheist popped in and implied that he was more qualified to speak on the meaning of life because he had a degree in philosophy.
I congratulated him on his achievement, then pointed out that he was on level with any illiterate dirt farmer. And that is a fact. It’s not a put down. A shut down, maybe. But not a put down.
In my not so humble opinion, any sentient being who can ask themselves, “Why am I here?” has a right to draw their own conclusions because as of yet no definitive answer has been shown to be satisfactory to all people.

That being said;

While I do not have the right to put down or condemn another for their beliefs, I do[/b] have the right to … (here it comes…) , intellectually pound the ever-living crap out of one who professes an understanding of a faith shared.
That shared faith being Christianity.

The Christian theists dilemma in regard to the declarations of their faith(s), is the fact that they claim that they know their faith to be true. Which opens the door, and reasonably so, for ridicule from people who do not believe as they.
What almost all contemporary Christians refuse to understand is that, the moment they declare faith fact, faith ceases to exist. Leaving them with nothing but vacant slack jawed expressions.  That makes them and their faith, targets. And targets make poor impressions.
I have a few ideas as to why they fall into this pit, the biggest cause being their ego’s. But that’s a whole other thread.

It follows that if one cannot make a decision to believe then one cannot blame another for not believing. Nor can they take credit.
As I said earlier, I get my information from the same place most Christians get theirs, the bible.
In order for me to elaborate further on how I’ve come to the conclusion, I would have to start tossing out verse. Something I’ll never do unless specifically asked to do so by non-believers.

This fascinates me.  If you say that you believe in god wouldn't you have to first define god and then state that you believe in this defintion of god.  If you lack the knowledge necessary to define god then how can you define a god?  Wouldn't that mean that you have faith in something you don't have knowledge about?  Isn't faith in something you don't understand because you lack knowledge of it baseless?

[McQ]

Kes, could you elaborate just a bit more...."not supposed to believe" doesn't seem to have much to do with superiority complexes.

Alright.
“Free will”, as the term is bandied about, is a farce.
I didn’t choose to be born. I didn’t choose my gender, etc. Were it up to most folks, they wouldn’t choose to die.
In other words, the idea of free will is fine, right up to the point where it bumps into someone else’s “free will” or just everyday circumstance.

It is my stance in regard to my faith that one cannot choose to believe in the god of the bible. In fact the bible spends most a great deal of time emphasizing the point. Interestingly enough most Christians disregard this fact. (That’s a whole ‘nother can o’ worms.)

Once a believer realizes that they did not choose to believe, that the very faith they profess comes from god and not themselves, it levels the playing field.
Ignorant doctrines and misunderstandings such as “eternal punishment” and trinity’s logically crumble into nothing. As a result of my determination that belief is not a choice, my faith is logically unassailable.

Okay. For clarity’s sake I’ll give a bit of background information as to how I come to my conclusions;

I use the bible as my source of information regarding my faith.
In my over ten years time of posting on message boards, I’ve heard all the arguments. So for those who are reading this and feel so inclined as to inform me of my “delusion” or my need to “believe in Santa Clause”, allow me to save us both some time;

Faith is just that. Faith.
It is only an avenue on which the timeless question of “Why am I here?”, is explored.
At the end of the day the “delusional” argument doesn’t work with someone who claims to have faith as opposed to knowledge. Why? Because in order to bring the charge of delusion to the table, one must have knowledge to replace said delusion. And unless I missed the report on CNN that said the meaning of life has been found, you, me and everyone else with an idea or belief are on equal ground. Anyone who insists on pushing the point, I toss into the same bin as ignorant fundamental Christians.
A few years ago, I was having a board discussion, when an atheist popped in and implied that he was more qualified to speak on the meaning of life because he had a degree in philosophy.
I congratulated him on his achievement, then pointed out that he was on level with any illiterate dirt farmer. And that is a fact. It’s not a put down. A shut down, maybe. But not a put down.
In my not so humble opinion, any sentient being who can ask themselves, “Why am I here?” has a right to draw their own conclusions because as of yet no definitive answer has been shown to be satisfactory to all people.

That being said;

While I do not have the right to put down or condemn another for their beliefs, I do[/b] have the right to … (here it comes…) , intellectually pound the ever-living crap out of one who professes an understanding of a faith shared.
That shared faith being Christianity.

The Christian theists dilemma in regard to the declarations of their faith(s), is the fact that they claim that they know their faith to be true. Which opens the door, and reasonably so, for ridicule from people who do not believe as they.
What almost all contemporary Christians refuse to understand is that, the moment they declare faith fact, faith ceases to exist. Leaving them with nothing but vacant slack jawed expressions.  That makes them and their faith, targets. And targets make poor impressions.
I have a few ideas as to why they fall into this pit, the biggest cause being their ego’s. But that’s a whole other thread.

It follows that if one cannot make a decision to believe then one cannot blame another for not believing. Nor can they take credit.
As I said earlier, I get my information from the same place most Christians get theirs, the bible.
In order for me to elaborate further on how I’ve come to the conclusion, I would have to start tossing out verse. Something I’ll never do unless specifically asked to do so by non-believers.

This fascinates me.  If you say that you believe in god wouldn't you have to first define god and then state that you believe in this defintion of god.  If you lack the knowledge necessary to define god then how can you define a god?  Wouldn't that mean that you have faith in something you don't have knowledge about?  Isn't faith in something you don't understand because you lack knowledge of it baseless?

Sometimes the trouble with entering into a discussion late is that people don't read all of the threads prior to chiming in. I suggest going back through this thread and the others where Kestrel defined his beliefs.

Secondly, the whole point of "faith" is a belief in something (in this case, god or a god) without needing evidence of it. So naked4jesus, you're missing the point of the entire meaning of faith by asking for a complete knowledge of god before believing.

[Kestrel]

It's only been with in the past year or so that everything clicked for me and I felt the awe and wonder at seeing everything fall together spiritually.

I know what you mean.
I’ve been seeing more and more like-minded people, on the web every year.
I think I count 6 of us now. LOL

After I followed the light of philosophy out of the cave of doctrine I discovered a new way of looking at the world and God.

Well put.

It is as Martin Luther said when the Catholic church was all up in his grill telling him to recant: "Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen!"

I think of him often and wonder if in his later years he didn’t put more of it together.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in and say good job.

Thanks.
It’s much appreciated.

I hope Will comes back to this. I love that guy.

Yeah. Will’s OK.
Although I feel that he would be better served by taking less credit for that which he didn’t earn.
Eh, Will?  

[Kestrel]

This fascinates me. If you say that you believe in god wouldn't you have to first define god and then state that you believe in this defintion of god.

Sure. I'm OK with that. I'm also OK with the idea that my perception of god, is incomplete.

If you lack the knowledge necessary to define god then how can you define a god?

I don't define it. I defer to the source of my spiritual information to define it.

Wouldn't that mean that you have faith in something you don't have knowledge about? Isn't faith in something you don't understand because you lack knowledge of it baseless?

Hence, "faith".
The 'base' or foundation of my faith rests upon a feeling.

[Kestrel]

I'll illustrate further.

It's my position that the "feeling" of faith is not a choice. What we do with that feeling is.

Allow me to reach back and use JoeActors, explanation as an example;

Knowledge and Belief are two separate domains.

I intellectually arrived at the position of being an Agnostic.

I emotionally arrived at the position of being a Theist.

Both are choices. One uses knowledge, the other feelings.

We make choices every day based on our emotions. There doesn't have to be an intellectual component (although many decisions do involve both).

All things have their place. If you choose a car based solely on your emotional reaction, best of luck with whatever you get. On the other hand, if you choose a spouse solely because they match a list of qualifications, I wish you luck in divorce court...

Attraction is not a choice. What we do with that feeling of attraction, is a choice.
Using JoeActors marriage example;
None of us has control over the people we are attracted to. We are either attracted to one degree or another or we're not.

JoeActor states that he chooses the emotions he feels. Quite a feat!  

Personally, I've been attracted to my share of women over the years, but I didn't ask all of them to marry me. I understood that regardless of any attraction, there were aspects of the person that I found either incompatible or unappealing. Therefore driving my choice of whether to pursue or abandon the relationship.

For this discussion; I have a feeling of faith of which I've no control. I made a choice to follow the explanation of that faith as is explained within the bible.

Does that make my position clearer?