Emails from God

[Elizabeth]

I've debated with my Christian mom about God, and she has a difficult time answering my questions. So she asked for the help of her pastor and friend to help me with my questions. They (Alan & Ken) both sent one email. I sent it back, with my responses in BLUE. Here is what has been said so far....

KEY:
Me - Blue
(Pastor) Ken - Red
(Mom's friend) Alan - Green
(Mom) Jan - Purple


Hey guys,
 
As I had talked with you before about helping me with questions that Elizabeth has regarding some issues, here's the first issue.
 
Evolution vs Creation as described in the Bible..
 
When replying, hit "reply all" so we can all be in on the discussion.  As you can see, Alan, Kenny, Elizabeth and I are on this.
 
Happy debating (I'm not a debater, so this is not my forte)!
 
Jan


Dear ones,
I am so glad Elizabeth, that you have some questions.  I have lots of questions.  What I am most excited about that you seem to have an open mind as to the answers, though I am not sure we can settle anything over email.  The correspondence will be too lengthy and very laborious.

I'd rather have everything discussed via email. That way, we can all take the time to look up any quoted scripture, and take our time with thought out, researched answers. Everyone will get a chance to see everyone's responses and questions. So, if you have the time, I'd love to continue via email.

When we discuss evolution as opposed to creationism, it is a hard one because we cannot use the Bible as a source, since that is off limits when you talk to an evolutionist.  So you have to talk on the turf of the evolutionist, and so I will try.

Please, I'd like to use the bible as a reference for creationism. That is what it is based on.

See from a Biblical point of view there is no question whatsoever, but when we come to another source, then we both find ourselves talking about information that we know very little about and therefore have to rely on other people's information.  To do that we will both find ourselves quoting people we don't even know, let alone how credible they are etc.  You have to do that and I have to do that, since neither of us have done the research ourselves.
So, that route might be a difficult one as well.  For me to say that most scientists agree or disagree with something is borrowing someone else's information, and that is hard to swallow.
The information that I read says that evolution is absolutely not agreed upon by every scientist,

Most of those who reject evolution do so because of personal religious conviction, not because of evidence. The evidence supports evolution. And the evidence, not personal authority, is what objective conclusions should be based on. Many scientists doubt some aspects of evolution, especially recent hypotheses about it. All good scientists are skeptical about evolution (and everything else) and open to the possibility, however remote, that serious challenges to it may appear.



and that for a scientist to disagree with evolution is a very difficult position, because they will instantly become a "leaper" in the scientific arena and will lose all funding and grants for their scientific projects, which means their income.  That is why there are many "quiet" scientists in the business.

Scientists are rewarded more for finding new things, not for supporting established principles. Thus, they tend to look more for novelties and for results that would overturn common beliefs. If a scientist found evidence that falsified evolution, he or she would be guaranteed world prestige and fame.


I can see where Eizabeth comes from, but the question remains.  If evolution is true (and I don't believe it is, to say it mildly), then WHERE DID THAT FIRST CELL COME FROM.  This much, I think, scientists agree upon, that life cannot just appear, and that is you go the evolution route, you get stuck right here.  As people discover  how much information is in ONE cell that we cannot even see with our eyes, they are increasingly perplexed that this could JUST happen.  From the information standpoint alone, you get stuck and it is mathematically an impossibility.

No theory explains everything, and evolution makes no claim of being any different. Evolution does not even apply to some areas, such as cosmology and physics.  In biology, evolution is broadly applicable, and it explains a great deal, but it is not everything. Some explanations depend on other factors; some they simply have not found yet; and some may be beyond our ability to uncover or understand.  There are, and always will be, unanswered details in every field of science, and evolution is no exception.

 
There is a joke that goes around.  And Elizabeth I am not making fun of you, I just want to make a point.  I wll never make fun of you, because this is tooooooo important an issue, because sooooo much hinges on this issue.
"A group of scientists got together and challenged God, 'We no longer need you as an  explanation for anything.  We can do every 'miracle' you ever did'.  God listened very patiently, then asked, 'Can you make a man?'  The scinetists said, 'No problem.  You made a man out of dirt-so can we, 'Not of my dirt' said God.  'Get your own dirt!"
 
Just a silly joke, but it make the point that we think we know so much, but in the final analysis, we always seem to borrow from God.
 
So, where did that first cell come from.

Can I tell you another story?  I went with Yorktown BC on a youth group mission in Phoenix Arizona adn we did some surveys.  Me and my partner came upon a house where the grandfather saw his chance to try to make fun of a couple of christians who dared to come to his house.  He introduced himself as a physician, scientist, atheist as if that would qualify him in any way, I should be intimidated.  We talked for a while, when he said "The problem with you christians is that you take things by faith, by me as a scientist can only go by fact."  Upon which I responded.  "Sir, I am a bottomline type of a guy, may I ask you a question?"  "Yes, of course", he said.  "Sir, do you believe in God?"  He said: "Of course not, there is no God like I said, we scientsts go only by fact".  I then responded and said: "Sir, for a scientist you sure are making a very unscientific statement here.  You have not died and gone anywhere to find out if there is a God or not.  So, for you to say that there is no God is a 'faith' statement and not based on fact, and that is unscientific".  He said: "But you cannot prove that there is a God".  Then I said: "Sir, I am not claiming to be the scientist here, but if you want to find out some of what I base my belief on, let me ask you.  You keeps the sun in place.  Because you people say, that if the son were any closer, we would all fry, and if it were any further, we would all freeze."  He said: "The solar system does that".  I answered and said: "Well who put that solar system in place?"

Anyway, you can already see that this is lenghty stuff, and I have not even scratched the surface, because I want to just come from a logical point of view, rather than using too much information from others.  But sooner or later, if we go the route of leaving out scripture, we all will have to rely on information that is "borrowed".


But many teachings from the bible seem illogical to me.

 i.e. How could have Noah's family populate the earth with different ethnicities and languages in just a few thousand years?

God said He was going to destroy all the people and start a new race with Noah and his sons
God did this by bringing a great flood upon the earth. After the flood there were Noah and his wife and their three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and their wives.
At the tower of Babel all the people of the earth were confounded by their languages and each group went their own way and they left off from building the tower.

To me, that seems illogical. a couple thousand years is NOT enough time to completely populate the earth to the density it currently is, with all it's different ethnicities.

 
In the end I belief, that science will prove the scriptures to be right.  We are "discovering" so much..  I got news, God ahd already put it there before we "discovered" it.

But so much evidence has already disproven scripture. Science has proven that the sun, stars and earth is older than the Bible says.
 
Elizabeth, I love you so much and want to help.  That is what I know for sure.  I know for sure that the scriptures are true and right, but coming from that perspective makes no sense to you right now.

But you don't KNOW that. You BELIEVE that. Knowing is different from believing.

This is my suggestion: why don't you ask God to show you.  "God I have an open mind, would You show me the truth?"  If you are open to another point of view, this is great.  If you are not open, then there is no need to even go any further in this discussion.  

I am in search of the truth. I am open to anything that heads in that direction. I understand if you don't want to answer my questions. Most people don't. But Jesus would, so I hope that you all continue to help me.

I have struggled along the way, myself, because there are lots of questions out there, and my mind was open to lots of points of view.  Now I have settled in for many years now as to what is the truth.
 
Let's talk some time.  We can talk about a lot more than I can write, slow typist that I am.
 
Love you, Elizabeth (which means: "pledged to God")
Kenny
His servant and yours
 





Greetings to all.
 

Hi Elizabeth. Hope you are doing well. I look forward to meeting you some day.

 

May I say, I am glad you are searching for answers. One of the ways that we grow is by asking questions and finding answers. I am sure you have already discovered that when one answer is found, more new questions often arise. That will likely happen here too.

You're telling me!

Putting this another way, our journey thru life is a continual search for truth. I look forward to dialoguing with you about truth.

Jan said you want to consider evolution versus creationism. Let me ask a question Elizabeth, if I may. What do you mean by evolution? Do you mean micro-evolution or macro-evolution? It makes a difference in this discussion.

For biologists, there is no relevant difference between microevolution and macroevolution. Both happen in the same way and for the same reasons, so there is no real reason to differentiate them. When biologists do use different terms, it is simply for descriptive reasons.
Macroevolution is merely the result of a lot of microevolution over a long period of time.

I am also curious why you started with this issue. Would you like to share that with us?
 
I didn't pick this topic. Jan did. It's something we've discussed before, and she didn't really know how to respond to it.
I'm more interested in discussing the questions I have in scriptures, not modern science.

You probably already know that I come from a Biblical world view. However, I do not want to "preach" at you. I want to hear what you think, and why.

Nonetheless, I do believe in Jesus, and in prayer,

Prayer: If God has a plan for everything, then why is prayer needed? Why would you pray for something, knowing it could be against God's plan? Wouldn't you just pray that "God's will be done."?

so I wanted you to know that I prayed Eph 1:17 and Rom 15:13 for you today. Romans 15:13 is one of my favorite verses. People perish without hope. My hope is in God, and His son, Jesus. How about you?

Eph 1:17 suggests that I lack wisdom and revelation. Verse 18 goes on to say, "The eyes of your understanding being enlightened..." The truth is, through rational thinking, I do believe I possess wisdom, revelation, and enlightenment.
Romans 15:13 "Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." I do believe that there is some joy and peace in believing, but that doesn't make the belief true.
You ask what my hope is, insinuating that without a belief in God, a person can have no hope. That is simply not true. I hope for many things. I hope for the best. I hope to leave the world a better place. I hope that others will want the same.

May God Bless You All,
Alan



Feel free to respond to anything I said.

I'd love to talk more about scripture. Is that ok?

A big question I have is: How could a "loving" God be so cruel? i.e. Punishing the innocent for the sins of others.



So, there it is. I'll post more if they respond to me. I think they will.

Any critics? Any advice?

[Hitsumei]

Both of them seem completely uninterested in having the conversation to me...

[Elizabeth]

I know that I will NOT change their mind about anything! My favorite topic is religion, and it's fun, for me, to hear how they will defend their beliefs. I'm sure they don't want to talk to me about it, but I'm hoping the will.

[SSY]

They seem to be putting up fences, ready to hide behind them when the science comes out to play.

If I were you, I would have responded to that stuff about god putting the solar system in place ( read; collapsing cloud of hydrogen and other heavier elements ) and the first cell with a question about how god got there, but the massive double standards christians employ with that one always makes my head spin.

The predictable answer ( always been there ), I am sure you would have no problem with invalidating.

[Tom62]

l loved the scientist joke though.

[Will]

I'm colorblind.

Also, the first cells came from DNA, the first DNA came from RNA, the first RNA came from amino acids, and amino acids came from the original compounds found on primordial earth: water (H2O), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), and hydrogen (H2). It's not 100% fact yet, but it's a very good and supported explanation as to abiogenesis.

[rlrose328]

Both of them seem completely uninterested in having the conversation to me...

I agree with Hit... you are not going to have a conversation with these people.  They will dodge any question you ask with their biblical science, further confusing the issues and you.

The pastor is being completely condescending and the other guy is praying for you using scriptures that, as you pointed out, do not apply.

I understand why you'd want this dialogue and I'm in agreement that it should be in email so you can refer back to what was said, but be prepared to be preached at, not conversed with.

[Elizabeth]

Thank you! I knew I'd gain so much more knowledge from you all. I appreciate you guy/gals talking the time.

[ACSlater]

As far as the pastor's responses are concerned, I think I can speak for everyone when I say  

[Elizabeth]

Here's the latest email from Alan:

Greetings to all.
You are welcome Elizabeth. This will be fun.

 

I agree with you Elizabeth, let's put science and evolution aside for now and talk about God and Scripture. (Although due to school textbooks, evolution vs. creationism is a hot topic right now.)

 

I probably should start by saying that I do believe the Bible to be God inspired, 2 Tim 3:16, and without error in the original manuscripts. This is probably something we should discuss further. Scripture has a huge impact on what I believe, and if someone else does not find the Bible authoritative, they are going to come to some different beliefs about life. You mentioned there is evidence that disproves Scripture. I would like to hear some examples Elizabeth. Regarding the age of the earth, there are Bible scholars with various views on this. A lot depends on how you interpret what a day is back in Genesis. For me, whether the earth is 8000 years old or 800 million years old does not alter my basic beliefs.

 

Let's move to the big question at the end of your note. Okay? People in all generations ask the question - if God is loving, good, and all powerful, why does He let bad things happen to good people? Is that at the heart of your question? "A big question I have is: How could a "loving" God be so cruel? i.e. Punishing the innocent for the sins of others."

 

First, no one is innocent. Rom 3:23 - For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..

God is holy and perfect. We all fall short of that perfection. (I am not just talking about making mistakes, as in 2+2 = 3. I am talking about our moral choices and behaviour.)

 

Second, there are consequences to sin. Rom 6:23a - For the wages of sin is death....

The penalty for sin is physical death; and ultimately spiritual death - eternal separation from God. (What is eternal life about? John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. Scripture teaches that eternal life is about a relationship, a relationship with God. Eternal death is everlasting separation from God.)

 

Third, getting back to the question, God is both totally loving and totally just. His love is perfect and His justice is perfect. Therefore, on the justice side, God must deal with sin. How does He do it, miraculously and lovingly thru the sacrifice of His one and only Son, Jesus. Amen to that!!!

 

I need to go. I am going to send this, as is, though there is a lot more to discuss.

 

Let me include this article by Lee Strobel on suffering. I think he has a lot of good points in here that are relevant to this topic.

 

 

http://www.suffering.net/strobel.htm

Lee Strobel

Lee Strobel was an atheist when he first walked into Willow Creek in 1980. Today, he teaches about the Jesus who changed his life. His books include Inside the Mind of Unchurched Harry and Mary, What Jesus Would Say, and God's Outrageous Claims. With a journalism degree (University of Missouri) and a Master of Studies in Law degree (Yale Law School), he was formerly the legal affairs editor of the Chicago Tribune. Lee and his wife Leslie have a son and daughter in college.

 

Question

A poll conducted by Willow Creek Church, the largest church in America: If u could ask God any question and u knew you would get an answer, what would it be:

#1 question - Why is there suffering in the world?

 

Overview

We can only know so much this side of eternity (about everything, including suffering)

1 Cor 13:12 - Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

 

5 points of light when wrestling with the Why question re: suffering:

 

1. God did not create evil and suffering and death ·

Why didn't he create a world without suffering or evil ? Well, he did !!! ·

Genesis said - when God created the world - - It was "good"………….free of suffering and evil!! · He gave men free will. · If love is the greatest value we have then the only way we can truly express it is to have free will.

Real love must involve real choice……… · We abused the choice by walking away and rejecting God.

This abuse of choice resulted in 2 kinds of evil - moral evil and natural evil

· Moral evil -

the pain and suffering that comes when we choose to be selfish or arrogant or uncaring or abusive or hateful and hurtful toward others · Some have estimated that 95% of the world's suffering results from our own sins or the sin of others · They showed a picture of a person in a time of famine and starving and yet the world produces enough to provide each person with 3000 calories per day · It's our own self centerdness that causes others to starve · Pogo cartoon - "We have seen the enemy and he is us" ·

Natural evil -

floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes that cause suffering · It's a result of allowing evil in the world. Pain and death became part of the human experience · Because of sin that nature was corrupted. ·

Gen 3:18 - It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. · Nature has been subjected to frustration because of sin.

It is groaning as in the pains of childbirth, longing for redemption to come

Rom 8:18-22 - I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. · ·

 

Summary -

God did not create evil and suffering and death . God did create the "potential" for evil to come into the world but it was the only way to create the potential for genuine goodness and genuine love. · Couldn't God have forseen this happening?

Isn't it true that parents have the same concern for their children? Isn't there the potential that our own children could suffer disappointment, tragedies, hurts…….but u still had kids ! Why? Because u knew there was also potential for great joy and love and meaning. As did God !

He knew we'd rebel, but He knew there would be those who freely chose to follow Him, freely choose to take up his offer of eternal salvation. And it would be worth it to God - - even though he would have to give up his own son in great pain and suffering to achieve the redemption…….

 

 

2. Even though suffering is never good, God can and does use it to accomplish good

He does this in 4 ways:

1. He uses pain to draw people towards God ·

Peter Kreeft - The meaning and purpose of suffering in history is that it leads to repentance. · Only after suffering do nations, do Israel, do people turn back to God ! · When life is great and carefree is the time when we forget about God. Often, when we suffer is when we turn to Him. ·

"I have known more of God since I came to this bed, than through all of my life." Ralph Erskine (Racked in pain in his bed) ·

"God can use pain and suffering to attract us to the greatest joy in life - which is an intimate relationship with God that will continue into heaven where we'll spend eternity with him. And the truth is, it's worth any price if it means coming to know God in that way."Lee Strobel ·

"I would rather be in this wheelchair knowing God than on my feet without Him." Joni ·

If u don't believe this statement than perhaps its because u don't yet know God in that way………

 

2. God can use trials to sharpen the character of his children and to help them to become more like Jesus Christ. ·

Romans 5:3 - Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. ·

Hebrews 5:8 - Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered · ·

"God can make use of what he hates to accomplish what He loves." Unknown ·

He can use suffering to :

· Purge sins from our lives

· To strengthen our commitment to Him

· To force us to depend on grace

· To bind us together with other believers

· To foster sensitivity

· To discipline our minds

· To spend our time wisely

· To stretch our hope

· To cause us to know Christ better

· To make us long for truth

· To lead us to repentance of sin

· To teach us to give thanks in times of sorrow

· To increase our faith

· To strengthen our character

 

3. God disciplines his children for their own good so that we might learn the right path to take in life

Heb 12:10-11 - Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. · ·

Discipline is not punishment. Punishment is retribution for misdeeds of the past. Discipline is the loving way we correct someones behaviour so that their future will be better for them. ·

God has the big picture and we have a finite view of the world. ·

"Every sorrow we taste will one day prove to be the best possible thing that could have happened to us. We will thank God endlessly in heaven for the trials that he sent us here." Joni

 

 

4. By fulfilling the promise he made in Romans 8:28 ·

Rom 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. ·

Gen 50:20 - You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives. · If you are committed to God, He promises that he can take whatever pain u are experiencing and He can draw something good from that. · Those who follow Christ could tell us stories of the truth behind this ! ·

Story of Emily……….

 

 

3. The day is coming when suffering will be ceased and evil will be judged ·

If God has the power to eradicate evil and suffering why doesn't he do it? He will !!!

Because he hasn't done it yet doesn't mean he will not yet do it · Whats holding Him up? Some of us are……….He's holding back the curtain of the close of history so that some of you will might be touched by his love, that some of u may put your trust in Him, that u may come to a relationship with Him and spend eternity in heaven with Him. ·

2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. ·

This is evidence of a loving God ! He loves us enough that he's holding back history anticipating that u will come to Him and know the joy of spending eternity in His presence.

 

 

4. Any suffering we experience in this life will pale in comparison to what God has in store for His followers

· 2 Cor 4:17 - For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.

· 5 times had his back shredded by a whip

. 39 lashes

· 3 times beaten to a bloody pulp with a rod

Rom 8:18 - I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. ·

1 Cor 2:9 - However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" · Our lives may be difficult on earth but when they're put into context of ETERNITY they fade into nothingness

 

 

5. We decide whether pain in this life is going to harden us or soften us ·

John 16:33 - I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." ·

We've all seen where the same suffering causes someone to be bitter and reject God to become hard, angry, sullen and the same suffering causes another to turn to God, to become more gentle, loving and tender. ·

"I believe that all suffering is at least potential good; an opportunity for good. It's up to our free will to actualize that potential. Not all of us benefit from suffering and learn from it because that's up to us; it's up to our free will. And not only can we make the decision about how we are going to react to the suffering but God says I will help you in the process." Unknown

· The cross gives us ultimate meaning to our suffering because it means we don't have to suffer alone. Jesus suffers along with us. He offers to walk us through the pain ·

John 16:33 - I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." ·

Psalm 34:18 - The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. ·

Check out this amazing story:Tale of 2 cities - the ending - the story

 

"What is the Christian answer to the mystery of suffering?

It's not an explanation it is a reinforcing presence, it is Christ to stand beside u through the darkness, it is Christ's companionship to make the dark experience sacred."

Jesus Christ is within you. Therefore your sufferings are His sufferings. Your sorrow is His sorrow." James Stewart ·

"Yea, though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me." ·

The question of suffering in this world is not a why question at all !

Even if I told u the answer if I could, it wouldn't help because you'd still be going thru the suffering.

You'd still need Jesus Christ.

It's a How question. How is it that we can get through the pain of life, that Jesus said is inevitable. ·

Think about the suffering your going thru and ask yourself - can u see any way God can take that pain of your life and make something good out of it.

God can and will cause the good to emerge from it.

If u cant see it - that's ok - because God does !

And he loves u enough to fulfill the promise that if u run into his arms He will not only hold u thru the crisis but he will also cause something good to emerge from the tears that you shed.

 

 

May God Bless You, Alan

[curiosityandthecat]

1. He uses pain to draw people towards God ·

Oh, well, that's all right, then.

 :raised:

[SWATSON0039]

However funny it may sound, I find that the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is one that is hard for religious folks to talk their way around, because you can play the same cards they play regarding the bible with the gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The arguments for both Christianity and FSMism are exactly the same: Irrational and Deluded. I love when I show FSMism to religious folks. They always say it is stupid. I say, "really now?"

[Graham]

It's in interesting question to ask about free will. Christians all have different answers. If you want to ask about that see what they say. Tell them you think God is a silent sitting-on-a-fence observer, because that explains pointless chaos better.

[SektionTen]

Talk about information overload.  

What I'd like to know is just how this huge, mammoth, complicated theology came about. Your pastor makes several big assumptions that, when torn down, really just destroy his whole theory. Here's a few of them:

1. Mr. Pastor says we are all in sin and wretchedness, essentially.

Where on earth does that come from? The whole concept of "sin" is the cornerstone of christianity, but if you look around, you won't find any "sin". It's completely fictional. What will you find? A complex social structure of interwoven relationships between people, and actions of these people in incredibly complex ways that all have justifications in the social structure itself. The whole field of sociology studies the actions and motives of people and groups of people, and if it was all as simple as "everyone's a sinner", I think they would have come to that conclusion long ago.

In reality, however, the whole idea that there is a specific action that possesses this quality known as "sin" simply doesn't exist. If there was a table without any bread on it, and someone said, "there is bread on this table"; you look at the table, and you see no bread, so there is NO bread on the table. Sin is that bread. And it's falsified because christianity says it exists in humans. Well, sociologists have looked. Sin doesn't exist.

Take that one assumption away, and everything else he says turns to meaningless fluff. An elaboration of a system that depends on something that doesn't exist.

Could you ask him to justify his assumption of "sin" without using the bible? I'd like to hear his response.