Re: I Am Once Again in Awe...

[McQ]

The Big Bang Theory is not that matter came from nothing. It never addresses an actual beginning of matter just how the universe came about. The theory (or at least one common version of it) states that all matter was compact into a tiny space until it exploded giving birth to the universe. Some scientists believe that the universe breathes - in other words the universe expands as it is now and then once it comes into contact with an outside force contracts again. Rinse and repeat. I for one don't believe something can come from nothingness nor has nothingness ever been.

Why does there always have to be a beginning to something? Because that's what you can comprehend? Because you had a beginning? And of course this would also mean that your god couldn't have come from nothing. Believing some simple element found on the periodic table has always existed is a lot less of a stretch than believing a magical man has been around forever (and at some point along the line of infinity decided to make us  If you have read the MOG vs. Evolution thread, you'll know why I ask. I beg of all that is decent in you....Please don't say "exploded"!  :hail:  

[Sophus]

The Big Bang Theory is not that matter came from nothing. It never addresses an actual beginning of matter just how the universe came about. The theory (or at least one common version of it) states that all matter was compact into a tiny space until it exploded giving birth to the universe. Some scientists believe that the universe breathes - in other words the universe expands as it is now and then once it comes into contact with an outside force contracts again. Rinse and repeat. I for one don't believe something can come from nothingness nor has nothingness ever been.

Why does there always have to be a beginning to something? Because that's what you can comprehend? Because you had a beginning? And of course this would also mean that your god couldn't have come from nothing. Believing some simple element found on the periodic table has always existed is a lot less of a stretch than believing a magical man has been around forever (and at some point along the line of infinity decided to make us  If you have read the MOG vs. Evolution thread, you'll know why I ask. I beg of all that is decent in you....Please don't say "exploded"!  :hail:  

Aw shucks  

Oops. Sorry McQ, I didn't know "exploded" was a no-no. I can see how that term would be sticky when talking about the Big Bang Theory.

[Lawless]

Although there have been and still are some different views among those who use the label Christian as to what happens to "good" people who don't accept Christ ("righteous pagans" for example), the central theme of Christianity involves forgiveness through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice.

Also, I think most if not all Christians would assert that by definition, God's interpretation of morality is the only one that can matter.  He defines morality, by virtue of being God.  I'm not suggesting that you believe that of course - just that it is inherent in our view of God.

So under that scenario it doesn't matter how good a person is, in the sense that I might define it.  The most active philanthropist in the world is still going to come up short.

So your average Christian doesn't think of Christ as a monster - just the opposite.  We don't think it is a zero sum game.  A Christian doesn't win because you lose.  A Christian fails in his duty by not putting God first, not following God's teachings (to love, for example), and by not telling you about what he believes will benefit you.

I don't intend for any of that to sound preachy, because of course you know the arguments at least as well as I do.

[McQ]

Although there have been and still are some different views among those who use the label Christian as to what happens to "good" people who don't accept Christ ("righteous pagans" for example), the central theme of Christianity involves forgiveness through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice.

Also, I think most if not all Christians would assert that by definition, God's interpretation of morality is the only one that can matter.  He defines morality, by virtue of being God.  I'm not suggesting that you believe that of course - just that it is inherent in our view of God.

So under that scenario it doesn't matter how good a person is, in the sense that I might define it.  The most active philanthropist in the world is still going to come up short.

So your average Christian doesn't think of Christ as a monster - just the opposite.  We don't think it is a zero sum game.  A Christian doesn't win because you lose.  A Christian fails in his duty by not putting God first, not following God's teachings (to love, for example), and by not telling you about what he believes will benefit you.

I don't intend for any of that to sound preachy, because of course you know the arguments at least as well as I do.

Welcome to the forum, Lawless. I think you've made a fair and accurate assessment of what the basic teachings are of christianity, from the standpoint of works vs. faith/acceptance of jesus.

What some of us find weird (and I thought it was weird as a christian myself) is that countless sects and denominations interpret and practice it differently, and too many do not have a live and let live (or even a live and let die, if you will) attitude. We see them here frequently. To be fair, we have some pretty good members who are deists, theists, and believers, who set the example of belief without in your face preaching or fire and brimstone posts.

Again, welcome.

[Sophus]

Although there have been and still are some different views among those who use the label Christian as to what happens to "good" people who don't accept Christ ("righteous pagans" for example), the central theme of Christianity involves forgiveness through acceptance of Christ's sacrifice.

Also, I think most if not all Christians would assert that by definition, God's interpretation of morality is the only one that can matter.  He defines morality, by virtue of being God.  I'm not suggesting that you believe that of course - just that it is inherent in our view of God.

So under that scenario it doesn't matter how good a person is, in the sense that I might define it.  The most active philanthropist in the world is still going to come up short.

So your average Christian doesn't think of Christ as a monster - just the opposite.  We don't think it is a zero sum game.  A Christian doesn't win because you lose.  A Christian fails in his duty by not putting God first, not following God's teachings (to love, for example), and by not telling you about what he believes will benefit you.

I don't intend for any of that to sound preachy, because of course you know the arguments at least as well as I do.

Good to have you Lawless.

I have one question. What do you make of Luke 14:26? I'm not intending to insult the intelligence of everyone of the Christian faith - I'm just astounded that a Christ follower can read a verse such as this and take it to heart.

[Lawless]

I have one question. What do you make of Luke 14:26? I'm not intending to insult the intelligence of everyone of the Christian faith - I'm just astounded that a Christ follower can read a verse such as this and take it to heart.

Thank you both for the welcome.  

My initial thought on that verse was that it was hyperbole, and meant something like "I must absolutely be your number one priority, don't make this commitment lightly, and be prepared to make the sacrifices that will be asked of you".

Then I went and reread this and noted the placement; notably this follows the "making excuses for the banquet" parable.  Given that and other context (In the NIV version this if prefaced with "Large crowds were following Jesus...") I guess I feel pretty comfortable with my first impression.  

I'd be surprised and shocked to think any Christian could take this as a literal directive to hate anybody, especially in the context of (for instance) a commandment to "love one another".

[Sophus]

The thing is I don't think you would be so generous with giving god the benefit of the doubt had this been a quote from the Koran or any other holy text. Don't get me wrong, I would prefer you interpret it this way. But nowhere does it say "love them less than me" (which by itself is very narcissistic). The fact that it contradicts just shows the philosophical flaws in the Bible.

[NearBr0ken]

The fact that it contradicts just shows the philosophical flaws in the Bible.

True Sophus, but a fundamentalist can never ever ever change their mind.  The fault lies in their interpretation of reality.  I.e. if what they believe isn't what the Bible says, they're wrong by default.

[Lawless]

While I can understand your skepticism, I doubt I can offer an acceptable answer on defending text from other religious works - honestly I'm only offering my opinion on this one, and it is by no means the definitive answer.  There are quite a few things in the Bible that I don't feel that I understand well.  If this question were really troubling me, I would be probably be asking a linguist or scholar for some information on the use of the word "hate" here - is it stylistic as I imagine it to be or is there some other explanation?

To me, it doesn't make any sense to think Jesus (or perhaps from your point of view, someone making up another story about Jesus) would abrubtly inject the requirement that someone literally "hate" his family, or himself.  It just seems like a literary device used to communicate emphasis.

But requiring that a disciple put family members and self below God seems reasonable, practical, and consistent given the circumstances.  Even if I were to share your "narcissistic" view though, remember that in my worldview this would be uniquely reasonable where God is concerned.  

[Lawless]

True Sophus, but a fundamentalist can never ever ever change their mind.  The fault lies in their interpretation of reality.  I.e. if what they believe isn't what the Bible says, they're wrong by default.

Hmmm.  Well at least my friends will be amused to learn that I am a fundamentalist, and that I can never ever change my mind.  They have always suspected that I was just putting on an act anyway.

I guess I'd better pack it in for the night.  

[PipeBox]

Hmmm.  Well at least my friends will be amused to learn that I am a fundamentalist, and that I can never ever change my mind.  They have always suspected that I was just putting on an act anyway.

I guess I'd better pack it in for the night.  

[karadan]

I have one question. What do you make of Luke 14:26? I'm not intending to insult the intelligence of everyone of the Christian faith - I'm just astounded that a Christ follower can read a verse such as this and take it to heart.

I'd be surprised and shocked to think any Christian could take this as a literal directive to hate anybody, especially in the context of (for instance) a commandment to "love one another".

But they do. All the time. Everywhere!

Does that not anger you? Doesn't it make you want to scream? How dare other people soil something you so fervently believe in! How dare they take your greatest and most sacred belief system and pervert it toward their own hideous ideology! This is a monstrous abuse of your principles which you need to do something about. You need to yell from the rooftops and rally others who believe as you do, who worship the god of peace, to help change the views of the radicals and fundamentalists who'd take every opportunity to make a mockery of the bible by over-interpreting its verses to use as a tool for oppressive dictatorship. Who are these people? Why would they take something so beautiful and smash its very foundation so that any tenuous link it may once have had with morality is now turned on its head? The spirit which fills you with love throughout every moment of your life is being raped by savages and all you can feel is shock and surprise? You should feel anger and rage. White hot rage.

How dare you let people take this away from you. How dare you let them spoil something so innately beautiful by standing on the sidelines feeling 'shocked' whilst lunatics deconstruct your religion and replace it with terror and despair. This is your domain and other people are rampaging through it with a grotesque disdain for the very things it stands for. Their perverse glee at twisting the basis for your entire life is something you should meet head-on with an steel fist! After all, you know you are right, don't you? You follow the correct path, do you not? But, isn't that what a fundamentalist would tell you should you question their motives? Didn't they just interpret the bible the correct way because that was what god wanted? Besides, you aren't allowed to question god's will, are you?

As much as it angers me to see moderate christians perform the verbal equivalent of shrugging and whistling nonchalantly when a fundie starts spouting venomous bile and hatred, I can see why they don't want to do anything about it. It is because religion has a 'pertinent question firewall'. Anything which proposes views counter to its policies simply cannot exist. New ideas and arguments against fundamentalist viewpoints are crushed instantly because at its core, religion is unquestionable.

I know, if there was something I'd based my entire life upon, I'd be royally pissed off to see some of the things people are doing in the name of it. I'd be at the forefront of policy change. I would never back down. I would stand up for what I believe in!

So, you can let your religion become further warped and polluted by radical nonsense or you can grow a pair and become enraged. Let change happen from within. Be proactive. As Zach De La Rocha once said: Anger is a Gift.

[Lawless]

I no longer argue on Biblical grounds because I don't presume my understanding of the Bible, my interpretation, to be the definitive one

I feel the same way.  If I do comment I usually take pains to stress that I'm not claiming to have had a divine revelation - just expressing my personal opinion.  

To be honest, I'm not sure what the current definition of fundamentalist is as it pertains to Christianity; I'll look it up to see if I should start wearing the special hat  

[PipeBox]

Woah, powerful post, Karadan.  But, in half jest, I give you the Christian answer to the first paragraph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaqcGat1WUI#t=0m31s

I think you'll find the imagery suited to the lyrics suited to the post.  Anyway, the reason everyone maintains a sort of timidity is because it's considered polite and normal by society, and that trumps their dogma in most cases.  Most Christians are opposed to gay marriage, for example, as far as I know.  But if it were already legal, how many of them would advocate the removal of the right for gays to marry?  It's nauseating that people can't beat this machine that works in their heads, but it obviously serves a social function.

Anyone who really "understands" the religious makes a career out of teaching more of the faith to those who already accept the tenets of it, never going out and saving the lost.  There's no money in it.  There's no security in it.  Society would regard them as loons.  Churches only gain significant new numbers from people who already believe the same basics, and from the children.  The hardest conversion your average church-goer will initiate is the indoctrination of their children.  Sorry to be blunt, but, well, there it is.

[Lawless]

But they do. All the time. Everywhere!

They do?  Routinely use this verse as an excuse to hate people?  

To your more general point, though - yes, often I do feel anger when I see people attempting to use someone's belief system to manipulate that person.

Generally the sequence of events will go something like this:

1. Shock and surprise.

2. Double take.  Did this person actually mean that?

3. Confirmation.

4. Unleashing of anger. Confrontation.

Allow me to work through these stages if you please.  Currently I am stage 2 on this issue.

If I skip directly to stage 4 won't I be just like one of those radicals you dislike so much?