If there is a god, can there be free will?

[Sophus]

I was presenting the argument from several possibilities because I think it's false from every angle.  

[bowmore]

I was presenting the argument from several possibilities because I think it's false from every angle.  

Ok. Then I personally see no more reason to debate at this point.

Until the next.

[AnnaM]

I do not think free will is compatible with any rational, material Universe.  As for 'god', I have no comment, since I do not think the word means anything.

[BadPoison]

I do not think free will is compatible with any rational, material Universe.  As for 'god', I have no comment, since I do not think the word means anything.

Oh snap!

And why do you come to that conclusion, AnnaM?

Where do you see free will as not being compatible with a 'material universe.'

[Sophus]

I do not think free will is compatible with any rational, material Universe.  As for 'god', I have no comment, since I do not think the word means anything.

Oh snap!

And why do you come to that conclusion, AnnaM?

Where do you see free will as not being compatible with a 'material universe.'

I thought you were on her side?

[BadPoison]

Well, I'm not on anyone's side -

And while her conclusion seems compatible with my own, I would still be interested in someone else's reasoning (and even debating the method)

[thirteen31]

Well, I'm not on anyone's side -

And while her conclusion seems compatible with my own, I would still be interested in someone else's reasoning (and even debating the method)

Free-will vs. god? If there is an omniscient being (omniscient is derived from the latin word omnisciens and scire to know), than I would agree with bowmore on this:

He sees what is the future to us.

If omniscient means 'to know', and there is knowledge of our futures, how does this really equate to free will? Decisions that I choose to make day to day are outcomes of experiences that have affected what I choose. If god knows what we're going to be doing from one minute to the next, or there is some pre-ordained destiny for us, where have our choices in the present been affected by god and the knowledge of our futures? Furthermore, by accepting there is an omniscient being, you've committed to accepting that it is truth. Accepting it or not, the decision is still free will.

[bowmore]

Free-will vs. god? If there is an omniscient being (omniscient is derived from the latin word omnisciens and scire to know), than I would agree with bowmore on this:

He sees what is the future to us.

If omniscient means 'to know', and there is knowledge of our futures, how does this really equate to free will? Decisions that I choose to make day to day are outcomes of experiences that have affected what I choose. If god knows what we're going to be doing from one minute to the next, or there is some pre-ordained destiny for us, where have our choices in the present been affected by god and the knowledge of our futures? Furthermore, by accepting there is an omniscient being, you've committed to accepting that it is truth. Accepting it or not, the decision is still free will.

In my opinion the confusion comes from the observation that our will is a determinant in what the future is. I do not dispute this. Claiming that our will is free comes down to claiming it is itself not determined by other determinants. As our will exists within time, it must be fixed for omniscience to be possible. If our will is fixed, it is not free.

[AnnaM]

Well, I'm not on anyone's side -

And while her conclusion seems compatible with my own, I would still be interested in someone else's reasoning (and even debating the method)

If a thing exists it has properties, its existence is these properties.  These properties must be definite, that is, specific, because if a thing's properties were not specific then it would cease to be something in particular and would be nothing in particular, and could not be said to exist at all.  Ergo, everything behaves according to strict determinism according to its specific properties.  The proof of determinism has long been known, all revolts against reason not withstanding.

[bowmore]

If a thing exists it has properties, its existence is these properties.

Disagree : reality exists independent of our description of it.

These properties must be definite, that is, specific, because if a thing's properties were not specific then it would cease to be something in particular and would be nothing in particular, and could not be said to exist at all.

Particles on the quantum level have properties that can be indefinite. Would you say these don't exist?

Ergo, everything behaves according to strict determinism according to its specific properties.

This also fails on the quantum level.

[AnnaM]

Particles on the quantum level have properties that can be indefinite. Would you say these don't exist?

Unjustified metaphysical conclusions drawn from a non-specific (and known to be inaccurate) mathematical model which, by the way, can and has been interpreted in a fully deterministic fashion (Richard Feynman, for example).  Non-determinism is non-sense.  Nothing could ever be 'demonstrated' to be excepted from causation, and causation is always strict (else there is no 'cause' proper).  Either reality is deterministic, or there is no reality.

Scientific models do not describe the Universe, they give us a method of calculating probabilities.  Of course they aren't strictly deterministic in many cases, as neither our knowledge nor powers of observation are infinite.  But to suggest that things are not really deterministic is to undermine science altogether.

[Messenger]

But quite simply, if there is a god that is omniscient could there really be a such thing as free-will?

Actually not,
Human don't have an absolute free-will
But as God is outside the Universe, there is no way to know how he do things, we can only know from our experience inside this universe
So outside this universe only logic applies, not our observations

Creation is nothing we can know, God created us with some sort of free-will but it is not full, at the same time it is justice to be judged by our deeds, there is no way to know how those things work

Those things can not be used as a refutation for God, as it is logical to be unknown

[Kyuuketsuki]

But quite simply, if there is a god that is omniscient could there really be a such thing as free-will?

Actually not,
Human don't have an absolute free-will
But as God is outside the Universe, there is no way to know how he do things, we can only know from our experience inside this universe
So outside this universe only logic applies, not our observations

Creation is nothing we can know, God created us with some sort of free-will but it is not full, at the same time it is justice to be judged by our deeds, there is no way to know how those things work

Those things can not be used as a refutation for God, as it is logical to be unknown

I see ... so outside the universe (a place which by definition cannot exist and no one has observed) only logic exists? Excellent! And you now this how?

I'm not lying when I say you and your pretensions to some kind of uber-logic, really annoy me.

Kyu

[athiest12]

if there is a god then mot likely there would be no free will. if there was free will then god wouldn't be an omnipotent deity. he'd be able to see our next move before it even happened.

[adimagejim]

First, time is a construct of humanity. What we perceive to be linear, may not be at all. So let's forget time in this discussion. (Just consider the number of black holes in the universe and their theoretical effects on time.)

Second, knowledge of actions past, present or future (from our human perspective) has no real imperative for influence, intervention or intercession. (You don't necessarily hit the curve ball just because you know it's coming.)

Third, it is the purported influence, intervention or intercession that destroys free will when paired with omnipotence or omniscience (assuming you have the capability to achieve influencing, intervening or interceding).

In short, it's the doing by omniscience or omnipotence that undoes free will, because free will implies freedom to act or not to act without impediment.

Jim