Israel is nothing but trouble...

[DennisK]

I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

You honestly can't create that next frame yourself?  How did I change the "rules"?

I didn't say you did, I said the picture did so whoever created the picture ... whoever created the picture wouldn't know objectivity if it was a dead kipper beating him repeatedly around the head.
- My bad, sorry.  Can you refute the map, though?

Israeli forces typically strike at military targets

How do you know this?  Because the Israeli's say so?   Look, I'm not saying that Palestinians don't use private homes to operate.  They do, but how do you know that attacks from Israeli's are justified?  Do they swear they are telling the truth on the Torah?

I'm saying that the better press are not that stupid ... whenever they report these things it is clear to me that Israel is doing no more than protect their people as any government has to. I no more take what the Israeli's say at face value than what the Palestinians say, likewise for each state's supporters.
If you believe in a "better press" you are vulnerable to propaganda as we all are in some way.  Most news is governed by elite who have the power to dictate what is being reported and what is not.  Some pull off a better illusion of free press than others, but how can you know what is the truth?  Even if there existed a non biased press, how do you know they aren't being manipulated externally?

As I stated before, the reason that Palestinians resort to suicide bombing, using private homes, and throwing fucking rocks is because they are caged animals with no other means to fight back.  Their land is shrinking at an exponential rate and their family and friends are dying.  They cannot form a conventional militia.  They cannot truly have peaceful demonstrations when an unimaginable fear exists (if they have done so, there is no publicity).

Oh right ... and the Afghan bombers? The Iraqi bombers? Iranian Jihadists, IRA? And so on? Are these all doing that for entirely justifiable reasons? Fer frakk's sake man they elected a bunch of terrorists to lead them!!! What the frakk else is Israel supposed to do?
By all means, yes, the leaders of these groups have their own justifications.  They sell the idea of "terrorism" and it's awful.  Fortunately for them, it's not a hard sell given the oppressive atmosphere usually accompanying such acts.  Whether innocent people are targeted or not, look at the in-proportionate amount of innocent people killed on the Palestinian side.  Or we can just write them off as "collateral damage"?  It kinda rolls off the tongue. :brick:

Smack your head against a brick wall all you like ... it doesn't make you right nor I wrong. There are bad things everywhere and the Israeli's impress me with what they have done, they're no angels (what country is?)
No, but blindly following propaganda on any issue makes us all wrong.  Usually in history, whoever is gaining the most is manipulating the best.

I have few doubts the Israeli voice is strong in the US.
Obviously, yes.  Why is that?

We all need to fight the brainwashing we receive on many levels.  Question "fact" as it is dictated to you.  Explore and find out a better understanding of truth on your own.  Look at the world with the concept, "Who stands to gain" in every situation.

So you've decided that because I disagree with you I have been brain washed? That about right?
If you are not taking any perspectives into consideration other than your preconceived hypothesis, then yes, you are one step closer to eradicating free thought in your mind.

Kyu[/quote]

To empathize or sympathize with the Palestinians, doesn't mean you have to condone terrorist activity.  The same can be said of the Israelis.  You must see many perspectives in order to have the big picture or at least a bigger one.  Both sides are wrong.  I repeat, both sides are wrong.

We are all brainwashed to some degree.  By definition, you probably aren't conscious of it.  Don't take any "respected" press as gospel as our theistic friends do with their "book O' many answers".  Again, look who's gaining the most out of any situation.

[Kyuuketsuki]

My bad, sorry.  Can you refute the map, though?

No nor am I interested in doing so ... it is enough for me that the author is biased.

If you believe in a "better press" you are vulnerable to propaganda as we all are in some way.  Most news is governed by elite who have the power to dictate what is being reported and what is not.  Some pull off a better illusion of free press than others, but how can you know what is the truth?  Even if there existed a non biased press, how do you know they aren't being manipulated externally?

And you don't think I am capable of reading a number of reporters and forming my own opinion? Where did I say I swallowed what "the better press" says hook, line and sinker? When I refer to them in this fashion I am simply distinguishing them from the tabloid scumsheets.

By all means, yes, the leaders of these groups have their own justifications.  They sell the idea of "terrorism" and it's awful.  Fortunately for them, it's not a hard sell given the oppressive atmosphere usually accompanying such acts.  Whether innocent people are targeted or not, look at the in-proportionate amount of innocent people killed on the Palestinian side.  Or we can just write them off as "collateral damage"?  It kinda rolls off the tongue.  

Or people can just be plain fucking gullible ... the 911 bombers for instance were typically well educated western cultured individuals who were taken in by all that Islamist terror-based crap. I have few doubts that Palestinian life is ad right now, I am simply not prepared to brand the Israeli's evil just because every other liberal idiot with an opinion thinks it's so.

This is related to the problem, yes.  In your reasoning, however, one could conclude the Israelis are promoting more terrorist activity by oppressing the Palestinians, no?

Of that I have few doubts but my understanding is that Israel (through choice or pressure) has attempted to help the Palestinians as well. I imagine the situation is vastly more complex than you or I understand but it is important to understand that nations do not have moralities, they have interests.

No, but blindly following propaganda on any issue makes us all wrong.  Usually in history, whoever is gaining the most is manipulating the best.

And again I point out that simply being of a different view to you DOES NOT make me blind.

Why is that?

Dunno ... I'm not an American (thank frakk).

If you are not taking any perspectives into consideration other than your preconceived hypothesis, then yes, you are one step closer to eradicating free thought in your mind.

And again ... just because my interpretations differ from yours does not make me someone who believes things without thought (IOW up your frakking arse Dennis).

To empathize or sympathize with the Palestinians, doesn't mean you have to condone terrorist activity.  The same can be said of the Israelis.  You must see many perspectives in order to have the big picture or at least a bigger one.  Both sides are wrong.  I repeat, both sides are wrong.

IMO the Palestinians are more so.

We are all brainwashed to some degree.  By definition, you probably aren't conscious of it.  Don't take any "respected" press as gospel as our theistic friends do with their "book O' many answers".  Again, look who's gaining the most out of any situation.

I don't, I simply don't accept your conclusions ... perhaps I should or would I then simply be following you instead of the press?

Kyu

[Will]

I don't want to derail anything, so let me just say how impressed I am with the level of discourse on the HAF. Anywhere else on the internet, and we'd have an angry, fanatical screaming match where the facts lose out to emotional arguments. Here we have calm and objective discussions based on facts. That we happen to interpret facts differently is almost an afterthought.

Color me impressed.  

[DennisK]

Kyu,

I know I should have quoted you, but it takes me forever for me to make sure all my syntax is right before I post.

Map:  Tell me how it is wrong?  If you can prove it is incorrect, please do so.  It may very well be wrong.  If you can refute the map's accuracy, I will replace or remove the attachment.

Media:  All media is biased.  Not too long ago, I felt like you do now.  It was shoved down my throat from multiple American news sources how Israeli's were always victimized.  Palestinians all paraded in the streets after a suicide bombing.  Rarely are we ever shown Palestinians as victims.  Cross referencing stories from CBS to CNN does not bean you are able to bypass bias.  You don't have to dig far to see the Israeli government has a history of being the aggressors since its inception.

And you don't think I am capable of reading a number of reporters and forming my own opinion

No, but you seem to dismiss anything that is not in your comfort zone only taking in ideas that satisfy your status quo.  We all do it in one way or another.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth.  The act of dropping a bomb is a war crime.  And white phosphorus bombs are banned by the Geneva Convention for use in civilian areas.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm

[Kyuuketsuki]

Tell me how it is wrong?  If you can prove it is incorrect, please do so.  It may very well be wrong.  If you can refute the map's accuracy, I will replace or remove the attachment.

Dennis, do as you wish ... I've already explained I am not interested in the author's map now that I consider him or her biased.

All media is biased.  Not too long ago, I felt like you do now.  It was shoved down my throat from multiple American news sources how Israeli's were always victimized.  Palestinians all paraded in the streets after a suicide bombing.  Rarely are we ever shown Palestinians as victims.  Cross referencing stories from CBS to CNN does not bean you are able to bypass bias.  You don't have to dig far to see the Israeli government has a history of being the aggressors since its inception.

I don't think you do understand my view on this ... I think you are overlaying what you would like to believe I think on to what I have actually said.

I do not do American news to any great extent.

Parading for what?

Whilst I am sure Israel is no angel, I don't agree they are the aggressor in this. ... indeed I think you are incredibly biased towards the Palestinians (and your remarks on "brainwashing" rather indicate you think I have an Israeli bias, I probably have but I've never equated bias with a lack of objectivity).

No, but you seem to dismiss anything that is not in your comfort zone only taking in ideas that satisfy your status quo.  We all do it in one way or another.

Whatever!

Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth.  The act of dropping a bomb is a war crime.  And white phosphorus bombs are banned by the Geneva Convention for use in civilian areas.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6075408.stm

Um ... that link is from 2006 man ... if you're going to attack Israel for using these (which I concede is a possibility) at least cite something recent.

Kyu

[DennisK]

Um ... that link is from 2006 man ... if you're going to attack Israel for using these (which I concede is a possibility) at least cite something recent.

Yes, my apologies.  I should have been more thorough.

Here is an article that is from a biased source, so you probably don't want to read further.  Oh, that's right, bias doesn't interfere with objectivity, right?

Carolyn Harris
Infowars
January 10, 2009
“For us, being cautious means being aggressive,” one IDF officer told IPS, “When we suspect that a Palestinian fighter is hiding in a house, we shoot it with a missile and then with two tank shells, and then a bulldozer hits the wall. It causes damage but it prevents the loss of life among soldiers.” Due to the significant loss of military lives in the Lebanon war, Israeli military planners took into account the effect on Israeli morale and support during the war on Gaza.

“From the minute we entered, we’ve acted like we’re at war. That creates enormous damage on the ground,” the officer continued. In addition to so-called military targets, the IDF has bombed clearly marked UN buildings such as hospitals and several schools which has lead to many women and children - non-combatants - being massacred for doing nothing more than trying to shelter and hide from the fighting. These buildings were shelled even though the UN had clearly given the IDF the coordinates so that they would not be targeted.

More and more Palestinians are huddling in apartments without windows, weathering very cold nights without sleep as the bombs fall around them, terrified if the next one will fall upon their own heads. The Palestinian casualties keep mounting, with fully one-third being children said AFP on Wednesday.

Israel realized their ridiculous statement that there is no humanitarian crisis wasn’t beloved anywhere, and bowed to international pressure, agreeing to a ceasefire from 1-4 pm daily, to “establish a humanitarian corridor near Gaza city.” Although at Kamal Udwan Hospital, medics confirmed that east of Jabaliya Refugee Camp three sisters were killed from air strikes during the ceasefire period yesterday and others were wounded.

But the atrocities continue. Two members of the Palestinian Red Crescent (PRC) were attacked last week and in the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza city the Ad-Dura hospital were bombed, in addition to three mobile clinics provided by DanChurchAid, a Danish relief agency.

The Palestinian Authority plans to launch a war crimes proceedings against Israeli leaders responsible, said Palestinian Authority (PA) delegate to Britain Professor Manuel Hassassian. It is believed that the IDF is using white phosphorous weapons against defenseless civilians, which causes horrific burn that are only made worse if water is put on the flesh. According to the Geneva Treaty of 1980 it is only acceptable to use the weapon for a smokescreen or for illumination. That loophole is wide enough to drive a convoy through and Israel is clearly exploiting it for its own political smokescreen so it will be able to maintain plausible deniability.

In addition, traces Depleted Uranium (DU) have been found in some of the Palestinian victims, said some Norwegian medics. This comes as no surprise as nearly all bullets and munitions used by America are DU and have been used freely in both the Bosnian conflict and the Iraq war. When a DU munition explodes, it turns into an extremely volatile flaming gas and then leaves micron-sized ceramic dust particles that re-suspend easily into the air, and are breathed into the lungs. Breathing DU dust is the most lethal method of exposure and the Palestinians surely have no place to go to escape this lethal dust. If the bombs, white phosphorous weapons or starvation doesn’t kill them, the DU may.

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ev6ojm62qwA&hl=en&fs=1

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'm giving up because you have one opinion and I have another ... neither of us will ever convince the other he is right.

Here is an article that is from a biased source, so you probably don't want to read further.  Oh, that's right, bias doesn't interfere with objectivity, right?

I will however answer this ...

... I am biased towards reason and logic and away from faith and wishful thinking yet I consider myself to be relatively objective.

As Dawkins says, just because two points of view are expressed with equal intensity does not mean the truth lies exactly halfway in between ... it is possible for one argument to simply be wrong.

IOW, bias can be justified and does not necessary mean a lack of objectivity. Objectivity and bias (lack of) are not the same thing.

Kyu

[Kyuuketsuki]

THREE DAYS LATER: I must be right then, all hail me  

Kyu

[DennisK]

What exactly are you reveling in?  Because I refrained from keeping this thread going knowing it was getting neither of us anywhere, and more importantly, it was benefiting no one.  Claiming the truth is not exactly in the middle of two points of view is you only saying that you are more right than I.  How should I rebut?  Nu-uh, I call I'm more right!  It's pointless.  

This will be my last post on this issue so if that gives you more "points" than I, so be it.

[AnnaM]

israel was created by victorious anglo-american states to create a lobby domestically and have an excuse for ME war mongering.  economically, militarally and legally the Federal Empire is the only reason israel exists.  ironically, both governments are failing fascist regimes using genocidal terrorism to avoid domestic unrest.  this shit is as old as governments.

[McQ]

As Will has already posted regarding the good level of civil discourse on this topic, it is my hope that it remains so. Please keep the discourse above the level of an angry, fanatical, screaming match. Thank you all.

[Kyuuketsuki]

What exactly are you reveling in?  Because I refrained from keeping this thread going knowing it was getting neither of us anywhere, and more importantly, it was benefiting no one.  Claiming the truth is not exactly in the middle of two points of view is you only saying that you are more right than I.  How should I rebut?  Nu-uh, I call I'm more right!  It's pointless.  

This will be my last post on this issue so if that gives you more "points" than I, so be it.

FYI I WAS NOT claiming I was more right, indeed (on the subject of Israel) I explicitly said you had one POV and I had another and that neither of us would persuade each other, I was merely claiming that your cynicism concerning my claim that bias did not equate to a lack of objectivity was inherently flawed ... virtually everyone in this forum knows that is true because they have rejected religion (they are biased against it) yet no doubt still consider themselves relatively objective.

Please read and reply to the points actually made.

Kyu