Israel is nothing but trouble...

[Kyuuketsuki]

Though there has been violence on both side, as far as I know, the first strikes have almost exclusively been against the Israeli's (once the nation was established).

That's not always the case. Take this current situation for example. Did you know that Israel broke the so called 6-month ceasefire? Back in November an Israeli raid killed 6 Palestinians, breaking the ceasefire. That set off the Hamas rockets, firing in response. Israel started this recent conflict. And this isn't the first time.

Not always, never said it was, but more often and I wonder what exactly caused that raid you mention?

Kyu

[Will]

Not always, never said it was,

That's true. Still, the fact that this recent conflict was started by Israel probably tells us it's not that rare.

I googled israel attacks unprovoked and scanned the first few responses.

but more often and I wonder what exactly caused that raid you mention?

It depends on who you ask. Several news agencies parroted the story provided by the Israeli government; some Palestinian gunmen were tunneling into Israel from Gaza. Unfortunately, this hasn't been corroborated and the Israeli government is famous for inventing "actionable intelligence" in order to excuse attacks on Gaza and the West Bank. I've seen reports on Palestinian blogs that Israel was targeting Hamas leadership and failed to hit the target, killing several Hamas militants (but there's no mention of any tunneling). I've also read that they hit civilians.

[Kyuuketsuki]

It depends on who you ask. Several news agencies parroted the story provided by the Israeli government; some Palestinian gunmen were tunneling into Israel from Gaza. Unfortunately, this hasn't been corroborated and the Israeli government is famous for inventing "actionable intelligence" in order to excuse attacks on Gaza and the West Bank. I've seen reports on Palestinian blogs that Israel was targeting Hamas leadership and failed to hit the target, killing several Hamas militants (but there's no mention of any tunneling). I've also read that they hit civilians.

Yeah well the first casualty in war is truth so ...

Kyu

[Asmodean]

Yeah well the first casualty in war is truth so ...

Indeed. And it's the last one to recover in the aftermath too.

You know what's interesting? No-one has jumped on me in a fury like Hell hath no for my anti-Israel view... I like the people on this forum more and more every day  

[Kyuuketsuki]

You know what's interesting? No-one has jumped on me in a fury like Hell hath no for my anti-Israel view... I like the people on this forum more and more every day  

The implication of yiur remarks is that you see yourself as the outsider or a bit unusual in being anti-Israeli ... I'm kinda pro-Israeli (not totally but it would be pointless to deny that I am am more pro Israeli than Palestinian)and in my experience most, if they have a view at all, tend to empathise with the little guy (the Palestinians) so I wouldn't see you as such (indeed I tend to see being pro-Israeli as being the less popular POV).

I don't think being anti-Israeli equates to being anti-Semite and yes, you are correct to say that modern day Israel is not, by blood, Jewish ... I don't think it matters much though as every nation in the world has dubious things in their past (Israel is just a bit more recent).

Kyu

[Asmodean]

The implication of yiur remarks is that you see yourself as the outsider or a bit unusual in being anti-Israeli ...

I am. In a way. Most people I know tend to either support Israel to varying degrees or not care.

...that I am am more pro Israeli than Palestinian...

Yup. That's the common view right there - at least among the people I've spoken of this to.

and in my experience most, if they have a view at all, tend to empathise with the little guy (the Palestinians)

Only the Palestinians happen to be Muslim and that defaults them to the last place in line for support in far too many eyes.

so I wouldn't see you as such (indeed I tend to see being pro-Israeli as being the less popular POV).

That's interesting... The same experiences with different standpoints... It appears that the safest thing in this particular conflict is not to care...  

[DennisK]

Willravel, thanks for the map of Israel/Palestine.  Your link deserves a repost plus:
Am I wrong in making the next step?

What all of the Israeli apologists forget is Palestine has no army.  They have no way of defending themselves.  Unfortunately, terrorism is there only option to retaliate and the only thing that receives attention from the western world.  And doubly unfortunate are the "collateral damages" to innocent people on both sides, but lopsidedly in favor of the Israelis.  

Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  

[Will]

Yes, to be honest, it seems obvious that Israel is simply interested in either driving our or killing every Palestinian. And they'll succeed as long as they have US support.

[Asmodean]

It will all boil down to WW3.    

[Kyuuketsuki]

Willravel, thanks for the map of Israel/Palestine.  Your link deserves a repost plus:

I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

What all of the Israeli apologists forget is Palestine has no army.  They have no way of defending themselves.  Unfortunately, terrorism is there only option to retaliate and the only thing that receives attention from the western world.  And doubly unfortunate are the "collateral damages" to innocent people on both sides, but lopsidedly in favor of the Israelis.  

And what the Palestinian Apologists forget is that Jews bought the land for their country lock, stock & barrel, that whilst civilians may get hurt/killed they are collateral (Israeli forces typically strike at military targets) and that maybe they don't have a formal army but maybe that's because they frakked it up themselves?

Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  :crazy:

Kyu

[DennisK]

Willravel, thanks for the map of Israel/Palestine.  Your link deserves a repost plus:

I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

You honestly can't create that next frame yourself?  How did I change the "rules"?

Israeli forces typically strike at military targets

How do you know this?  Because the Israeli's say so?   Look, I'm not saying that Palestinians don't use private homes to operate.  They do, but how do you know that attacks from Israeli's are justified?  Do they swear they are telling the truth on the Torah?

As I stated before, the reason that Palestinians resort to suicide bombing, using private homes, and throwing fucking rocks is because they are caged animals with no other means to fight back.  Their land is shrinking at an exponential rate and their family and friends are dying.  They cannot form a conventional militia.  They cannot truly have peaceful demonstrations when an unimaginable fear exists (if they have done so, there is no publicity).

They are an oppressed people and have been for a long time.  The only way they can have a chance is with outside help, however, if someone were to donate money to their cause, they would be "aiding the terrorists".  You could write to your congressman in hopes that he or she might do something.  Unfortunately, the US is so married to the Israelis, it would be a difficult fight.  Since this takes too much effort even to think about, I'm going to take the easy way out like you and blame the oppressed.  Fuck the Palestinians!  Hey, that felt kinda good.

We all need to fight the brainwashing we receive on many levels.  Question "fact" as it is dictated to you.  Explore and find out a better understanding of truth on your own.  Look at the world with the concept, "Who stands to gain" in every situation.

[SSY]

Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  

Israel keep attacking Palestine becuase of terrorist activity and attacks. So, the Palestinians mount more terrorist attacks in retaliation, great idea.

You also imply Isreal is bombing without due care to civillians. Even if this was true, something I highly doubt, it is still better than the way Hamas operates, they deliberatley target civillian population centres. Maybe if they did nto store their explosives in crowded urban areas and launch rockets from schools, Israel would not be so inclined to bomb them?

[Will]

And I repeat that the Israeli's owned their land...

Owning land and establishing a new government are two different things. I'd be fine if Jewish people wanted to move into my neighborhood. I'd not be fine if, with UN assistance, they established their own government simply because they owned a lot of land. And I'd be pissed if they started forcing out my friends and family. And I'd be really, really pissed if they didn't allow my people in government, didn't listen to my concerns, and still taxed me. I'd be livid if my tax dollars were being used to kill innocent people that used to be my friends and neighbors. I would be enraged if I was forcibly removed from my home and my family had to live in deeply impoverished refugee camps that were bombed at least once a week.

[DennisK]

Try to put yourself in the place of a Palestinian.  Your land has repeatedly been taken by force from you.  You lost family and friends in raids or attacks through the decades along with a recent event.  You become hysterically mad at the Israelis.  You decide to retaliate.  Unfortunately, there are too few rockets to go around, so you can either throw stones at a tank or strap a bomb to your stomach in hopes of making some form of revenge.  Or you could always try diplomacy, because everyone knows that has worked.  

Israel keep attacking Palestine becuase of terrorist activity and attacks. So, the Palestinians mount more terrorist attacks in retaliation, great idea.

You also imply Isreal is bombing without due care to civillians. Even if this was true, something I highly doubt, it is still better than the way Hamas operates, they deliberatley target civillian population centres. Maybe if they did nto store their explosives in crowded urban areas and launch rockets from schools, Israel would not be so inclined to bomb them?

Listen, I'm not an apologist for Hamas' actions.  Violence begets more violence and it is sickening.  I'm trying to point out that it's not hard to envision that many see no other option.  And it's not the Palestinian people as a whole who are doing this, but it is them who are suffering.  What do you propose they do?  What diplomatic options do they have?  We are brainwashed into thinking all middle easterners are lowlife terrorists.  We only see pictures of the fringe fundamentalists loaded to the teeth and screaming "death to America", yet we condemn Arab news organizations who do the same thing.

Here is a site with some death comparisons: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[Kyuuketsuki]

I love the way that picture changes the rules in it's last frame ... I mean talk about someone with an agenda or what!

You honestly can't create that next frame yourself?  How did I change the "rules"?

I didn't say you did, I said the picture did so whoever created the picture ... whoever created the picture wouldn't know objectivity if it was a dead kipper beating him repeatedly around the head.

Israeli forces typically strike at military targets

How do you know this?  Because the Israeli's say so?   Look, I'm not saying that Palestinians don't use private homes to operate.  They do, but how do you know that attacks from Israeli's are justified?  Do they swear they are telling the truth on the Torah?

I'm saying that the better press are not that stupid ... whenever they report these things it is clear to me that Israel is doing no more than protect their people as any government has to. I no more take what the Israeli's say at face value than what the Palestinians say, likewise for each state's supporters.

As I stated before, the reason that Palestinians resort to suicide bombing, using private homes, and throwing fucking rocks is because they are caged animals with no other means to fight back.  Their land is shrinking at an exponential rate and their family and friends are dying.  They cannot form a conventional militia.  They cannot truly have peaceful demonstrations when an unimaginable fear exists (if they have done so, there is no publicity).

Oh right ... and the Afghan bombers? The Iraqi bombers? Iranian Jihadists, IRA? And so on? Are these all doing that for entirely justifiable reasons? Fer frakk's sake man they elected a bunch of terrorists to lead them!!! What the frakk else is Israel supposed to do?

Of course what the reason could be is that they are held in poverty by their own people because their own people want to spend the money they get/make on armaments and want to attack the Israeli's who they view as interloper's in their land.

They are an oppressed people and have been for a long time.  The only way they can have a chance is with outside help, however, if someone were to donate money to their cause, they would be "aiding the terrorists".  You could write to your congressman in hopes that he or she might do something.  Unfortunately, the US is so married to the Israelis, it would be a difficult fight.  Since this takes too much effort even to think about, I'm going to take the easy way out like you and blame the oppressed.  Fuck the Palestinians!  Hey, that felt kinda good.

Smack your head against a brick wall all you like ... it doesn't make you right nor I wrong. There are bad things everywhere and the Israeli's impress me with what they have done, they're no angels (what country is?)

I have few doubts the Israeli voice is strong in the US.

We all need to fight the brainwashing we receive on many levels.  Question "fact" as it is dictated to you.  Explore and find out a better understanding of truth on your own.  Look at the world with the concept, "Who stands to gain" in every situation.

So you've decided that because I disagree with you I have been brain washed? That about right?

Kyu