How is rape harmful?

[Wraitchel]

The problem, as it seems to me, is that your view of men has been horribly skewed by the trauma you went through. It seems that you feel that most men are that way, and are not willing to apologize when you offend men who are not that way when you make a blanket statement. I do not expect an apology for the blanket statement, and the defense of the statement, because I do not need one. I would like for you to see that making statements such as that can make you look as if you are overly bitter and are unable to to look past your own biases towards men.
I do hope that you do not take this as a post showing that I have no sympathy or empathy towards your situation, or that I am asking you to "get over it." I am simply hoping to point out that there are quite a few men posting on this thread alone that show that your assessments into the minds of men are not quite accurate. It sounds as though your husband is another proof of that, and I'm happy for you that you have that support. I just ask that you try to see that not all of us are out to degrade women, or even most of us.

I think you're enjoying being offended by me, as if I gave half a crap. I hate you mike. You are completely failing to understand my every utterance.

[Ihateyoumike]

I think you're enjoying being offended by me, as if I gave half a crap. I hate you mike. You are completely failing to understand my every utterance.

Yikes. I must have been confused, all this time I thought this was a civil discussion we were having. I guess I missed it turning malicious. My bad.

[Miss Anthrope]

Wraitchel, I think you're being very unfair to Ihatemike, he is not failing to understand your "every utterance". You did use the words "most men", perhaps not really thinking about it, and that would indicate an unfair bias, although of course I don't mean "unfair" to imply that its not understandeable why you would have such a bias.

[Wraitchel]

I just don't get people who are offended by this stuff. How is it civil to tell me that my statement about "most men" is offensive. It's not like I said all men, or YOU. I speak from 43 years of experience. Be offended if you must, but be aware that it is hurtful to me that you turn my pain into something personal to you, for you to be offended by.

If I am uncivil in return, it is because my self-defense is anger.

R

[Wraitchel]

Wraitchel, I think you're being very unfair to Ihatemike, he is not failing to understand your "every utterance". You did use the words "most men", perhaps not really thinking about it, and that would indicate an unfair bias, although of course I don't mean "unfair" to imply that its not understandeable why you would have such a bias.

You think I am biased against most men. I think you are naive. I am thinking of that George Carlin joke: Think about how stupid the average person is...half are even dumber than that. This forum probably represents a more intelligent, better educated, wealthier group than most. Of course the people here, and probably most of the people they know are good folk, not at all prone to doubting the victim. Angelic little atheists, to a man. Think about the average moron in this wonderful  nation of ours, though. Do you really think I am wrong to assume he, like most, thinks Anita Hill was in the wrong when she accused Clarence Thomas of sexual misconduct? Do you really think I am wrong when I say that most men doubt the gravity of victimization? I think many women do, too. Sorry if I have a grim view of men. I still don't understand why my personal belief should offend anyone. I have not pointed to any one person (at least not until I was asked for proof). Wechlein and I made our peace. I bear no grudge against him, but I would never in a million years date him because I believe he showed his true colors in the statement I quoted.

[Ihateyoumike]

You think I am biased against most men.

Yes.

Do you really think I am wrong when I say that most men doubt the gravity of victimization?

Yes.

Sorry if I have a grim view of men. I still don't understand why my personal belief should offend anyone.

You've made that quite apparent.
That is why I am taking myself out of this conversation with you.

[Miss Anthrope]

I just don't get people who are offended by this stuff. How is it civil to tell me that my statement about "most men" is offensive. It's not like I said all men, or YOU. I speak from 43 years of experience. Be offended if you must, but be aware that it is hurtful to me that you turn my pain into something personal to you, for you to be offended by.

If I am uncivil in return, it is because my self-defense is anger.

R

That's why I said it was understandeable, and I personally was not angered by it. I'm a guy, I see my gender characterized as dumb cavemen who think with their penises on a regular basis, and that's why I barely took notice at the "most men" comment. I'm used to it. What I'm trying to say is that making generalizations based on personal experience is biased and going to raise eyebrows. If a person who's experiences with members of a specific minority were mostly negative and painful said "Most [insert ethnicity] are [insert negative comment]...", would that mean members of that ethnicity would be wrong to take offense? Being offended by a generalization is not the same as turning your pain into something personal for ones' self. I'll defend your right to have the feeligs you have to the death, I mean if you were a full-out man-hater because of what happened to you I wouldn't blame you at all. But in a forum environment, where all people are seeing is words on a screen, you have to be more specific when it comes to statements based on subjective experience. It will not help your cause (educating men about the harm of rape) if you make generalizations about them while educating them that basically say "You're a guy, so odds are you think rape isn't that big a deal." And it further hurts your cause to strip them of their right to be offended by generailzations by making them feel guilty.
Some guys would use your reply to me as a justification for beleiving that rape victims will take advantage of their victim-status. PLEASE don't interpet that as something else to be hurt by, I'm on your side, but to really get your point home you need to stay objective and be willing to allow the men you're talking to to voice how they feel about what you're saying. Seriously, think about the type of men who would actually doubt the victimhood of a rape victim: These are the same type of men who are probably opposed to feminism and are most likely emotionally stunted, so you're not going to have much luck in appealing to them with statemetns that come across as anti-male and becoming uncivil because of your anger, and you could also alientate the guys who ARE on your side, if for no other reason than becasue they feel that all of their personal feelings have to be kept bottled up for fear of hurting you by being offended. This kind of thing will only lead to more negative emotions on both sides, and then a thread which could be useful ends up coming to a halt.

[Ihateyoumike]

...and you could also alientate the guys who ARE on your side, if for no other reason than becasue they feel that all of their personal feelings have to be kept bottled up for fear of hurting you by being offended. This kind of thing will only lead to more negative emotions on both sides, and then a thread which could be useful ends up coming to a halt.

Well said MissA.

[Miss Anthrope]

Sorry if I have a grim view of men. I still don't understand why my personal belief should offend anyone.

You've made that quite apparent.
That is why I am taking myself out of this conversation with you.

Ugg, after reading her last reply to me, I think I'm gonna have to follow your lead.

Sorry Wraitchel, I don't like being called naive and I don't like it when people who demand understanding aren't willing to offer it themselves.

"You think I am biased against most men. I think you are naive." - For what, thinking something you consistently admit? Or for not sharing your view about my gender? Nothing in the statement of mine that you quoted had anything to do with naivete, unless you expect me to share your bias. So not only does it hurt you when people are offended by your belief, but they're naive for not embracing it?

Based on your reasoning,which was further elaborated upon in your second reply to me, it's OK to say things like "Most black people are morons", and it would be wrong for a black person to take offense?

I'm sympathetic to your issues, and wish you the best, but I'm not getting involved in any more of these kinds of one-sided threads.



EDIT:

Well said MissA.

ThenkU

[Wraitchel]

Miss A, you and mikey backed me into a corner telling me how offensive my statement is. DO you think it was my intent to offend? I was talking about a personal viewpoint which you both claim to understand, but choose to diminish by chalking it up to my victim status. I did not intend to offend. You chose to take offense. I should have left it alone. I hate it when people get all PC and take offense over some innocent, subjective statement of belief. Now I am a misogynist=racist, right? I reject that label. I think most men are insensitive morons and most women are judgmental bitches....whatever their color, creed, or nationality. As a self-advertised misanthropist, you should get the even handedness of that.

[Ihateyoumike]

IHYM, I am at peace with your last statement and hope to have no more bad feelings between us. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on our personal views on whether or not most men are cavemen. I really don't think they are.

Sounds fair.  

[Wraitchel]

Sorry IHYM, I edited my post as you posted yours. I am trying not to escalate the conflict, and feared that my last response would be too inflammatory. Thanks for accepting the olive branch.

[McQ]

Do you folks think we might try to go for understanding first? Perhaps a bit more civility? Seems like this is getting more heated. It looks to me like people have tried to express themselves as best they could. Try the "wait before you respond" approach, gang. Cool off a bit first. Thanks to all.  

[Miss Anthrope]

Do you folks think we might try to go for understanding first? Perhaps a bit more civility? Seems like this is getting more heated. It looks to me like people have tried to express themselves as best they could. Try the "wait before you respond" approach, gang. Cool off a bit first. Thanks to all.  

My first post was a call for understanding, my second one was pretty fair, I think, and now, after being called naive for not being misogynistic against my own gender, I've become the bad guy. I never called her a rascist, I was drawing a parallel. Now she apparently has harsh words she's holding back from tagging me with. Did I write anything that was that inflammatory?

EDIT: She just removed the part about holding back harsh tags. She changed it to this "I think most men are insensitive morons and most women are judgmental bitches....whatever their color, creed, or nationality. As a self-advertised misanthropist, you should get the even handedness of that."

And no, I don't, as a misanthrope I beleive humanity is flawed in general, I don't agree with unfair generalizations about specific groups, and I would never call women "judgemental bitches".  That type of thinking is one of the reasons I'm a misanthrope.

But to be clear once again, it is not my concern what she thinks about men anyway, even in my first post I said I could understand. I never expressed ANY personal offense at what she said (not until she suggested I was naive for not embracing her viewpoint), not once, but she still thinks that is my problem. I was pretty clear about my logic that blanket statements about specific groups are bound to cause offense, and thus are a terrible way to precede a call for understanding from the group in question.

I'm not heated against her, I'm very sympathetic, but she isn't showing any type of understanding, just gross misinterpretations of my words and intent.

RE-EDIT: Oh, I just wanted to clarify that Wraitchel didn't edit that one part after I posted this reply, it was like that after I posted, so I was not suggesting she did it to cover-up anything. I'm not out to spite her or cause her trouble at all. I just want this to be known, not just to her but to everybody:

Taking an anti-male stance will not help in an attempt to enlighten the type of men who need to realize how horrible the effects of rape are.

[Wraitchel]

Do you folks think we might try to go for understanding first? Perhaps a bit more civility? Seems like this is getting more heated. It looks to me like people have tried to express themselves as best they could. Try the "wait before you respond" approach, gang. Cool off a bit first. Thanks to all.  

Yep, I'm all for it.