How is rape harmful?

[Ihateyoumike]

I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

I guess I'll have to be the guy who points out how horribly offensive this statement is. I don't get offended very often, but this one got to me.

To say that most men will blame the victim, or claim that harm was really done is completely egregious. I don't blame you for feeling that way because of the horrible act that was committed upon you, but think about what you've said.

I myself, as a man, am disgusted by even the notion of rape. I'm not a violent person, but if any woman that I know was raped I would probably be in jail for violence against the rapist. This goes for pedophiles as well. And the vast majority of men I've ever associated with would probably feel the exact same way. I think to say that most(taken to mean the majority, is there any other way I can take this?) men would "give lip service" or "blame the victim" or "dismiss the claim that harm was really done" is a complete error. Again, I'm not blaming you, because I can understand why you hold that viewpoint, but that does not mean that I will not try to correct that line of thought.

I have never raped a woman, and think of it as a horribly unspeakable act. Like others on this thread, I commend you for speaking out against it and sharing your experiences, as hard as I imagine that would be to do. I have had women try to coerce me into having sex with them. Believe it or not, I have turned them down. Luckily for me, I was physically stronger than them, and they were unable to force it upon me. I can empathize with what it must be like to have that happen, and frankly, the thought sickens me. I have also had women who were intoxicated (I don't drink, so I was sober) who have wanted to have sex with me. I turned them down as well, although a few of them, I would have gladly accepted the offer had I felt they were making a rational decision at the time. So, to be painted with such a broad brush is offensive to me.

Perhaps you are correct and I am in the minority of males, but I doubt it. I think that, due to your experience, you find it easier to believe that the majority of men are that way. I hope that due to the examples from my own experiences, and due to the men in your life whom you spoke of who helped you "get past it", you can realize that not all men subscribe to the line of reasoning which you have set forth for us.

I apologize in advance if you did not truly mean most men with that statement, even though that is what was written. I would just like you to understand why that would come across as offensive to a man like me who has spent my life consciously doing everything I can to respect women, even at the expense of my own pleasure. If I did otherwise, I sure wouldn't think of myself as much of a man, and I feel that (deep down) the men who commit these horrible acts don't truly feel like much of a man themselves (even though they'd be to pathetic to admit it to themselves if they came to that realization).

And again, I am truly sorry that you (and others) on this thread had to experience the horrible things that you did.

[Kylyssa]

I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

I guess I'll have to be the guy who points out how horribly offensive this statement is. I don't get offended very often, but this one got to me.

I don't know how I missed that statement.  I, too, am offended.  I have some men that I love and many that I respect and I can imagine none of them either raping or having an attitude that rape is harmless.  

If most of the men you know don't understand that rape is harmful I suggest you pack up your things and get out NOW.  Other than the men I knew who were actually abusers, I've never known any that would suggest I "walk it off" because no harm was really done.
 
My partner is so affected by the knowledge that it took me a while to get him to be comfortable with down and dirty sex.  "No, love, you aren't hurting me, that was a good noise, so get back in there and jackhammer me like a road crew."

[karadan]

"No, love, you aren't hurting me, that was a good noise, so get back in there and jackhammer me like a road crew."

That made me laugh my ass off.

[SSY]

The only experience i have of seeing what rape can do to someone was when i attended a court case for my sociology A-level. It really slapped me in the face as to how damaging to the mind of a person it is. I'll never forget how the poor woman was cross-examined. They brought up lewd stories from her past to try to discredit the motives of the man who raped her and by inferring she was simply a slut. It made me feel quite sick to see someone who'd been through such an ordeal be made to feel so worthless in front of lots of people. The man got off because there wasn't enough evidence.

To be fair, you have no idea if he actually raped her, you are making a massive assumption, possible emotionaly biased. For all you know she could be acting. I don't want to come across as uncaring or unsympathetic to rape victims, but each case must be considered on its merits. The judge/jury obviously thought the same way as me.

As an aside, I find the false reporting of rapes almost as abhorrant as the act istelf. In my oppinion false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentance to rape itself. The example above shows how damaging even the suggestion of rape can be on someone's character.

[Ihateyoumike]

The only experience i have of seeing what rape can do to someone was when i attended a court case for my sociology A-level. It really slapped me in the face as to how damaging to the mind of a person it is. I'll never forget how the poor woman was cross-examined. They brought up lewd stories from her past to try to discredit the motives of the man who raped her and by inferring she was simply a slut. It made me feel quite sick to see someone who'd been through such an ordeal be made to feel so worthless in front of lots of people. The man got off because there wasn't enough evidence.

To be fair, you have no idea if he actually raped her, you are making a massive assumption, possible emotionaly biased. For all you know she could be acting. I don't want to come across as uncaring or unsympathetic to rape victims, but each case must be considered on its merits. The judge/jury obviously thought the same way as me.

As an aside, I find the false reporting of rapes almost as abhorrant as the act istelf. In my oppinion false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentance to rape itself. The example above shows how damaging even the suggestion of rape can be on someone's character.

I can understand your mentioning that you think that false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentence to rape itself. I think that would be a very despicable thing for someone to do. The false accusation could lead to just as much emotional harm for the person being accused, as a rape would to a person who has been raped. Not to mention what it would do to them socially, and even physically if family or friends of the accuser lashed out against the accused.

In the example above, the man was deemed not guilty due to lack of evidence. This does not give me 100% confidence that the man in that example was innocent of the crime of rape. Unfortunately, our judicial system is far from perfect. It certainly wouldn't give me enough confidence to say that since that man was not found guilty, that the woman should have to pay for the crime of falsely accusing the man.

She may have been acting. He may have been as well. The court, which has that nagging innocent-until-proven-guilty policy makes this a hard subject. Again, the man may have not been proven guilty, but we don't have enough facts to assume that means that he is 100% innocent. I'm assuming the courts didn't either, because they don't have to worry much about proving him innocent, just guilty.
So, would the answer be to hold another trial to see if the person who made the rape accusation was doing it criminally on purpose? Would that scenario further hinder rape victims from speaking up against their attacker if they knew they would have to face trial themselves if they did not have enough proof that they were raped? Would it be a good thing?
I don't think so. I don't think making that a criminal case would be an overall good idea at all. I think it's already hard enough for the victims of rape to come forward as it is.

As for the damage to the character of the falsely accused person, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is what civil court and lawsuits are used for. Granted, it may not ever get rid of the damage done to the persons character by winning those lawsuits, but what about a girl who was actually raped only to see the rapist get set free due to a lack of proof? Unfortunately, it's not fair to the person who is on the receiving end of any crime, and "swift justice" against those people who committed the crime does not usually erase the effects of the crime. But I think that people who have been the victims of crimes such as these need to be able to speak up against their attackers without fear of legal retaliation against them if they do not have enough evidence to prove their claims. That would seem to be counterproductive to me.

[VanReal]

I truly think rapist are the lowest of the low, and can't think of a more brutal crime that takes more time to get over.  Although some people (and I choose people because men/boys are also raped) are able to get over it being relatively okay, but I think the majority of people have long term issues that may not always be those of conscious thinking.  I had two children by a boyfriend who raped me repeatedly over the course of years, and my son is the spitting image of him.  He is now in prison after being convicted as a serial rapist (don't think I don't feel getting for running away and not telling anyone how he was) so I don't fear anything physically but I do have emotional and intimacy issues that have led to some funky social behavior.  I was quite slutty for several years in my 20s and then failed in two marriages and now have a boyfriend of five years that I never even consider having sex with as it's something that really never comes to mind as fun.  Even though I don't consciously think of it I know it screwed me up, and every now and then when I look at my son and see a glimpse of an identical manerism it sickens me a little.  My daughter dies when she was almost two during my first flee attempt, and he had no problem raping me in front of my son.  So, saying that it has long term effects is not an exageration.  The numerous women he raped during his spree (his oldes victim being 68 years old, youngest 17) were strangers to him so hopefully they are having a better go at it.  When I say that I think rapist deserve the death penalty I am of course biased, that doens't mean I don't still think it and can only hope that they are enjoying the same treatment in prison they inflicted on the outside world.

[VanReal]

To be fair, you have no idea if he actually raped her, you are making a massive assumption, possible emotionaly biased. For all you know she could be acting. I don't want to come across as uncaring or unsympathetic to rape victims, but each case must be considered on its merits. The judge/jury obviously thought the same way as me.

As an aside, I find the false reporting of rapes almost as abhorrant as the act istelf. In my oppinion false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentance to rape itself. The example above shows how damaging even the suggestion of rape can be on someone's character.

Totally agree with this SSY.  The worst thing going against legitimate cases of rape in court are all of the liars that claim "he raped me" because they were a drunk slut and wake up embarrassed the next day.  The liars are the ones that cause so much trouble for women/men who have actually been raped.  It's hard for people to believe when they re in court because they've seen or heard lies before and you kind of lean towards the benefit of the doubt because the defendent just doesn't look like a rapist.

I think there should be severe penalties for filing fake claims of rape, not the slap on the hand things they do now.  They should be legally penalized and should have to pay restitution to the person they lied about.

[SSY]

I can understand your mentioning that you think that false reporting of a rape should carry a similar sentence to rape itself. I think that would be a very despicable thing for someone to do. The false accusation could lead to just as much emotional harm for the person being accused, as a rape would to a person who has been raped. Not to mention what it would do to them socially, and even physically if family or friends of the accuser lashed out against the accused.

In the example above, the man was deemed not guilty due to lack of evidence. This does not give me 100% confidence that the man in that example was innocent of the crime of rape. Unfortunately, our judicial system is far from perfect. It certainly wouldn't give me enough confidence to say that since that man was not found guilty, that the woman should have to pay for the crime of falsely accusing the man.

She may have been acting. He may have been as well. The court, which has that nagging innocent-until-proven-guilty policy makes this a hard subject. Again, the man may have not been proven guilty, but we don't have enough facts to assume that means that he is 100% innocent. I'm assuming the courts didn't either, because they don't have to worry much about proving him innocent, just guilty.
So, would the answer be to hold another trial to see if the person who made the rape accusation was doing it criminally on purpose? Would that scenario further hinder rape victims from speaking up against their attacker if they knew they would have to face trial themselves if they did not have enough proof that they were raped? Would it be a good thing?
I don't think so. I don't think making that a criminal case would be an overall good idea at all. I think it's already hard enough for the victims of rape to come forward as it is.

As for the damage to the character of the falsely accused person, I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that is what civil court and lawsuits are used for. Granted, it may not ever get rid of the damage done to the persons character by winning those lawsuits, but what about a girl who was actually raped only to see the rapist get set free due to a lack of proof? Unfortunately, it's not fair to the person who is on the receiving end of any crime, and "swift justice" against those people who committed the crime does not usually erase the effects of the crime. But I think that people who have been the victims of crimes such as these need to be able to speak up against their attackers without fear of legal retaliation against them if they do not have enough evidence to prove their claims. That would seem to be counterproductive to me.

Rape is very, very difficult crime to prove/disprove becuase of the private nature. A one on one situation with no witnesses will usually come down to one word against another, this is part of the low conviction rate for rape.

In our example of the guy above, you are right you can't be 100% certain he was a rapist, I would never suggest you could be, but equally, you must acknowledge the fact that there is no garuntees he was a rapist either. I agree there should be a seperate burden of proof for the accused's possible innocence, and the acusers possible guilt. If it could be proved that the sex was consential/non existant ( ie, the accused had an alibi, and was at a different place ), then I think a conviction based on a false report would be entirley appropriate. Not ebing able to prove a rape claim would not garner a conviction, but if it could be proved the rape claim was false ( different things there ), then that is an entirley different matter.

In your post you sound as though you have come to conclusion of this mans guilt, and you think the only reason he got off was a lack of evidence, you fail to acknowledge the lack of evidence may be due to lack of rape.

A civil court case would not clear an accused's name, there is still collasal stigma attached to it. Whats really important though is the fact that an innocent person could go to prison, for a long time, based on a false claim, that risk is no adequetley responded to with a civil lawsuit.

When I looked up some info about fasle reporting, I was shocked at the levels some reports claim, if these are accurate, there will be a lot of lives ruined by this.

[Wraitchel]

I'm not saying I think most men would commit rape. I just think that when it is inconvenient for them to deal with the scars some other man left behind, some will try to make light of it. The evidence is right here in this thread. I am not talking about the man I married. He has never made light of anything that hurt me, even when he did not fully understand.

The thing I see is that too many men and women say, that some 16 year old who had "consensual sex" with an old codger pedophile was only getting what she wanted and was not hurt. That if she simply got talked into something she later regretted, then we need not feel sorry for her. That is not what happened to me, but having gotten myself into a different kind of trouble once, it is easy for me to understand how harmful it must be for some of these girls. I was the kind of kid who did not know how to say no because I was brought up by an alcoholic and a borderliner. I am not the only bright eyed baby like that. That is one of the many reasons you should not have sex with someone under age.

Of course any sane, loving man is outraged by a classic, violent, forceful rape....but where do you draw your line of sympathy? I feel bad for the 16 year old victimized by that nasty pastor. No way did she want to screw that foul geezer before he worked his manipulation on her. I bet she felt as dirty as used toilet paper when he was done with her, and too ashamed to talk, too late to stop it.... She was trapped. And worst of all, she knows everyone thinks she wanted it like that. I bet she didn't.

[SSY]

Statury rape is entirley different in my view, in England, your example of a 16 year old girl would be fine, agreeing on an age of responsability is difficult.

About being "talked into something", I think I will have to disagree. If a girl decides to have sex with someone ( consensual ), then she has obviously weighed up her options and chosen one or the other. If she makes this choice badly, then that is really her own fault, and I am sure we have all had sexual encounters we later regretted ( I know I have ).
Note, i preclude threats from this, threatening soeone into having sex with you is rape, no two ways about it.

Your post is also telling in that you only consider girls being raped, you make no mention about boys who have sex with their teachers, this in my view is an example of the double standards present in this arena, they are very common place, people see a male teacher haveing sex with his student as victimization, but a boy haveing sex with his teacher a studly acheivement.

[Ihateyoumike]

In your post you sound as though you have come to conclusion of this mans guilt, and you think the only reason he got off was a lack of evidence, you fail to acknowledge the lack of evidence may be due to lack of rape.

I apologize for that. I did not mean to have it come across that way. I am the type of person who rereads my posts multiple times before I post to try and make sure I get my point across the way I intend for it to come across, but I apparently failed.
In no way did I want to make the argument that I automatically felt the guy was innocent due to lack of evidence.
I was simply trying to make a point that I think it could be more detrimental to reporting of actual rapes if the person reporting the rape is in fear of legal retaliation if the rape is not proved to have happened.
I don't have any numbers for this, but I would guess that the number of unreported actual rapes probably outnumbers the number of people falsely accused of rape. I'd like to see actual rapes be reported more often, and this is just me thinking what might hinder that happening.

edit: I hope this makes sense. Some topics are harder than others to convey my ideas about without accidently making myself look foolish.

[Ihateyoumike]

I just think that when it is inconvenient for them to deal with the scars some other man left behind, some will try to make light of it. The evidence is right here in this thread.

Will you please quote this "evidence" from this thread of men making light of rape? I've seen nothing but thoughtful discussion on the subject, so I'd just like to know if I'm missing something.

[Wraitchel]

While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

Didn't you read this one?

[Wraitchel]

Your post is also telling in that you only consider girls being raped, you make no mention about boys who have sex with their teachers, this in my view is an example of the double standards present in this arena, they are very common place, people see a male teacher haveing sex with his student as victimization, but a boy haveing sex with his teacher a studly acheivement.

Just because I didn't mention rape of boys doesn't mean that I have double standards. In fact, I think that in many cases it is even more traumatic for a boy because their shame over being a victim may be greater. One of my dear male friends was raped repeated by his mother. You really have no basis for saying I don't appreciate the concerns of men who are raped just because we have not talked about the subject here.  We started all this in response to the pastor pedophile who raped a 16 year old girl, and then we moved on to personal experiences of  *women* here. We simply haven't been talking about male victims yet.

As for boys who have sex with their teacher, I do believe that it is equally reprehensible of the teacher. As for whether or not the boy is a victim, that is probably case by case, just as it is with girls.

[Ihateyoumike]

While rationally I understand how rape can be a damaging act to the female psyche, I can't help but feel a cold arrogance towards the victim-like mentality that these women go through. I find it hard to empathize or sympathize with these women have been damaged by rape, and as much as I try not to, still sometimes roll my eyes in exasperation.

Didn't you read this one?

Yes, I did. I also read the apology by Wechtlein:

Garbage. Utter garbage. I don't know what the hell I was thinking when I was writing that. Yes, I DO feel sympathy for women as victims, but, and this is why I wrote that garbage in the previous post, I used to take pride in having unfeeling arrogance, as well as a cold, brutal voice. I'm still trying to shake it off. Sometimes I still say things that are intentionally calculated to invoke cold arrogance when I've had a bad day.

In reality, you are completely way off when you say you've been with men like me. That much I know. I'm nothing like the man my diction leads you to be, but therein lies my talents. Because, as you shall soon see, I can manipulate the written word to a very high level, subconciously affecting myself and others online depending upon what I am feeling at the very moment.

Believe me, I understand to the fullest that you shouldn't trust fully anybody on the internet, nor what you read on it, for that matter.
But for what it's worth, I try to be as honest as I can on this forum, even if I am a little "sensitive" to my moods.

I also read your apology to him:

Sorry I came out with my guns a blazing, Wechtlein. This is a sensitive topic, and I was insensitive. I have become a bit of a shrew in my middle age, and I hate it.

Then I read another apology, by him, to you:

No, I should be the one apologizing wraitchel. In truth, I was having a bit of a bad day when I wrote that. still, that's no excuse for me to say that. I am sorry.

But then you wrote this statement, which I took offense to, and you have been defending ever since:

I am still trying to make men understand that rape is harmful. I know most men will give lip service to that statement, but I still think most are all too ready to blame the victim or dismiss the claim that harm was really done.

Granted, you have gone from using the wording "most men" to "some men" since I have pointed it out:

I'm not saying I think most men would commit rape. I just think that when it is inconvenient for them to deal with the scars some other man left behind, some will try to make light of it. The evidence is right here in this thread. I am not talking about the man I married. He has never made light of anything that hurt me, even when he did not fully understand.

The problem, as it seems to me, is that your view of men has been horribly skewed by the trauma you went through. It seems that you feel that most men are that way, and are not willing to apologize when you offend men who are not that way when you make a blanket statement. I do not expect an apology for the blanket statement, and the defense of the statement, because I do not need one. I would like for you to see that making statements such as that can make you look as if you are overly bitter and are unable to to look past your own biases towards men.
I do hope that you do not take this as a post showing that I have no sympathy or empathy towards your situation, or that I am asking you to "get over it." I am simply hoping to point out that there are quite a few men posting on this thread alone that show that your assessments into the minds of men are not quite accurate. It sounds as though your husband is another proof of that, and I'm happy for you that you have that support. I just ask that you try to see that not all of us are out to degrade women, or even most of us.