So Islam Is "The Tolerant Religion" Eh?

[curiosityandthecat]

No, I was referring the Hmongs, the subject of the paragraph above that quoted line.  And yes, I realize that the stoning took place in Somalia, not Afghanistan.  YOU realize, do you not, that speaking to me like that is condescending?

My apologies. I didn't intend on coming across that way, and I somehow missed the bit about the Hmongs (all the signatures in this thread run together with the posts above them... visually confusing). I suppose my internal reading voice sounds differently than it does to others.   ) there will be change. Until then, the best thing to do is exactly this: spread the word, talk about it, educate ourselves on the details and reasons.

Regardless of all this, it's a terrible thing to happen.  

[karakara]

"Religious tolerance" is a contradiction in terms. Christians burned women to death by the thousands during the burning time. Muslims stone women to death for being raped. Jews used to put people to death for working on Sunday.

Wrongo Boyo -- again, I see the same kind of stereotyping and painting of all faiths with a broad brush soaked with the blood of the worst examples of what religion has wrought. Now I'll be the first to admit that religion has been guilty of atrocious crimes, every type of crime imaginable.  But before you can really get into dissecting the problem, you have to break down 'religion'..  what religion, at what point in it's evolution, by what cultural/ethnic group, under what historical circumstances.. and ask, if the crimes were committed because the adherents of the faiths were (or believed they were) upholding some codified mandate (Levitical, Sharia, etc.).. and many, many more variables.. for you programmers, look at the 'built-in' problems of a faith, such as mandates to kill non-believers, as a 'global variable', and culture/region specific problems, 'local variables', such as 'Witch Burning' (a trans-generation memory and propensity, from the pre-Christian days of human sacrifice by fire, both in Europe, and memory from those tribes which migrated to Europe from Asia, S. Asia, and had a tribal memory of burnt offering..) , or in Arabia -- the dismembering as punishment .. cultural tendencies become sanctified in the new 'wrapper' of the new faith.  

But ask yourself, does this not also come down to a literal vs. metaphoric/symbolic interpretation of scripture??  Having studied Comparative Religion (I'm no professor though), it seems that the gist and spirit of all three Abrahamic faiths can either be:

a) wonderfully understood metaphorically, as if reading Tolkien .. it all makes sense.. the message, the compassion, etc. Great and inspiring stuff!

b) literally interpreted, Abrahamic faiths are a blueprint for fanaticism, confusion, oppression, cruelty, contradiction, fear, and ultimately psychosis.  Loving, but wrathful. Forgiving, but judgmental and punishing God.. which is it?  

I don't want to get long winded.. but my own faith, for example, is guilty of 'none of the above', and for this reason and example I take exception to the blanket condemnation of religion and your assertion that "Religious tolerance" is a contradiction in terms. Sikhs have never perpetrated  Crusades, nor pogroms. Indeed, we have suffered pogroms in India , by Muslims during 1947 Partition, also Hindus showing their gratitude in their own special way for Sikhs having saved India from Islamic conquest, and 1984 massacre of Sikhs by Indian Govt., Operation Blue Star, or the 'Sikh Holocaust', as we call it, and the subsequent riots by Hindus in Delhi after Sikh bodygaurds of Indira Gandhi assassinated her for her crimes against humanity.. Sikhs were targeted by mobs armed with fuel, torches, and burned alive, systematically, house-to-house.. so ironic and tragic.  In fact, more that one Sikh Guru (Leader) sacrificed himself for tolerance and human rights, in fact, I've never even seen the concept of 'Human Rights' before our Gurus introduced this.

For example, our beloved Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Dev Sahib Ji is famous for sacrificing himself to save ANOTHER  faith, in this case, Hinduism.. nowhere in human history have I seen the Supreme Leader of one faith, sacrifice himself to save another faith ...
Subsequently being enormously inspired by Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Dev Sahib Ji's example and lesson for mankind, Sikhs codified an even higher code of conduct, Rehat Maryada.. for hundreds of years since, all Sikh Khalsa (baptised Sikhs) are mandated to lay down their lives to protect the innocent, weak, persecuted. It matters not if they are Hindus, Jews, Muslims.. even Atheists ....This is not an option, but a directive. Most 'Codes of Conduct' simply proscribe behavior, and we do have this , but we also mandate action .. indifference or cowardice is not an option for Khalsa. This is why, respectfully, you cannot accurately .. although I can understand the impulse to... paint all religions with the same damning brush. You have never and will never see murderous Sikh mobs running wild in the streets .. it's unthinkable to us. You will never see Sikhs waging pogroms against another faith.. how can we forget Guru Tegh Bahadur?? You will never see Sikhs burning heretics, or crusading to impose our faith on others as 'God's Will'. You will see Sikhs giving their lives to protect non Sikhs.. the contrast is stark. Friend, I ask you to please reconsider your generalized statement that 'Religious Tolerance' is a contradiction in terms. Not Sikhs alone, but Jains are also without stain.. beautiful humanitarians.. and others.

Sat Nam, Waheguru!

[McQ]

Rather than requote karakara, I will just add my two cents to one of the religions that I've never been able to find an issue with, as far as it's benign nature goes. That is the Jain religion, as mentioned in the last post. I have a good friend who is a Jain, and I learned quite a bit from him regarding them.

Now, I still don't believe in a god or gods, but I find the tenets of some of that faith pretty amazing, albeit from a limited knowledge, gained from knowing only one family of Jains.

[curiosityandthecat]

Rather than requote karakara, I will just add my two cents to one of the religions that I've never been able to find an issue with, as far as it's benign nature goes. That is the Jain religion, as mentioned in the last post. I have a good friend who is a Jain, and I learned quite a bit from him regarding them.

Now, I still don't believe in a god or gods, but I find the tenets of some of that faith pretty amazing, albeit from a limited knowledge, gained from knowing only one family of Jains.

Agreed. I've researched the Jains a bit, too, and I find them absolutely fascinating. And again, agreed; I still don't believe in a god or gods.   *highfive*

[karakara]

I like having Jains around.. they always help me get in touch with aspects of my own faith that mirror theirs, the difference being that Jains are pacifists, and Sikhs have learned most painfully that, at least for us, pacifism would be our death knell. We take tolerance so far, but when violence is perpetrated against us or against innocents, we do fight back with lethal force, and I do mean to the death. There are of course other differences, but the differences make life interesting, no??

Jains, God bless their kind and gentle souls, are wonderful ambassadors of God in their own way.. and the concept of being 'Ambassadors of God' is something that Sikhs take to heart and soul very seriously, as we ourselves try to live up to this mandate, the Sikh way. If you travel in India and find a community with a Jain population, don't be surprised to see a Jain-run animal hospital.. now, a bird with a broken wing is quite symbolic, metaphorically.. and tragic.. and Jains, by the Grace of God, set and heal the wounds of helpless animals.. as they do for people too.  In doing so, they manifest the spirit and love of God, and the Hope that is God. Isn't it a miracle that some unlucky, say, Dove, with a broken leg or wing.. easy prey for any cat or rat.. would chance upon a Jain, who, like an Angel, will rescue and nurture this valuable creation of God back to health..

OK -- you get the picture. They're fun people too.. hope you get to meet them. But in times of trouble, they better stick close to their Sikh dharmic brothers ;-)


Fateh!

[karadan]

I tried to debate with an Islamic lady on youtube. She'd posted a video response to a Pat Condell video. Most of it seemed to be about the fact that Pat was hugely intolerant. She also made a point that the UK, on the whole, is hugely intolerant to muslims. The fact that our government blocked planning permission on the largest mosque in Europe, for one.

I tried to reason with her but it seemed to be falling on deaf ears, so i tried another tactic. I asked her the following question:

"If the UK is so intolerant of your religion, then why are there no churches in Saudi Arabia?"

I never got a response unfortunately. I was sure that was a valid question though.

[karakara]

I tried to debate with an Islamic lady on youtube. She'd posted a video response to a Pat Condell video. Most of it seemed to be about the fact that Pat was hugely intolerant. She also made a point that the UK, on the whole, is hugely intolerant to muslims. The fact that our government blocked planning permission on the largest mosque in Europe, for one.

I tried to reason with her but it seemed to be falling on deaf ears, so i tried another tactic. I asked her the following question:

"If the UK is so intolerant of your religion, then why are there no churches in Saudi Arabia?"

I never got a response unfortunately. I was sure that was a valid question though.

Did you ask her what her definition of 'toleranance' is? The answer might be revealing. Also, I'd ask her if she is familiar with term
'Double Standard'.. being a Conservative White Male in the U.S., I have to deal with double-standards on many levels every day.. after a while, you just laugh it off.

Finally, you might offer her a copy of Dore Gold's book "Hatred's Kingdom: How Saudi Arabia Supports The New Global Terrorism. Or, send her some youtube links of stonings and amputations in Saudi Arabia..

Consider seriously that she gets all of her news from al Jazeera, it's more likely than not.

Sat Nam and good luck getting anywhere with her...

[curiosityandthecat]

Consider seriously that she gets all of her news from al Jazeera, it's more likely than not.

I get all my news from the BBC, Al Jazeera, NPR and Jon Stewart. Something wrong with that?  

[karadan]

I tried to debate with an Islamic lady on youtube. She'd posted a video response to a Pat Condell video. Most of it seemed to be about the fact that Pat was hugely intolerant. She also made a point that the UK, on the whole, is hugely intolerant to muslims. The fact that our government blocked planning permission on the largest mosque in Europe, for one.

I tried to reason with her but it seemed to be falling on deaf ears, so i tried another tactic. I asked her the following question:

"If the UK is so intolerant of your religion, then why are there no churches in Saudi Arabia?"

I never got a response unfortunately. I was sure that was a valid question though.

Did you ask her what her definition of 'toleranance' is? The answer might be revealing. Also, I'd ask her if she is familiar with term
'Double Standard'.. being a Conservative White Male in the U.S., I have to deal with double-standards on many levels every day.. after a while, you just laugh it off.

Finally, you might offer her a copy of Dore Gold's book "Hatred's Kingdom: How Saudi Arabia Supports The New Global Terrorism. Or, send her some youtube links of stonings and amputations in Saudi Arabia..

Consider seriously that she gets all of her news from al Jazeera, it's more likely than not.

Sat Nam and good luck getting anywhere with her...

Those are some very good points which i'll certainly put forward. I doubt i'll get a response as i think she was only interested in pushing her own agenda - not constructive debate.

Maybe i'll make a video response

[karakara]

Consider seriously that she gets all of her news from al Jazeera, it's more likely than not.

I get all my news from the BBC, Al Jazeera, NPR and Jon Stewart. Something wrong with that?  

Are you serious?? Assuming you are, at least it's good that you investigate multiple sources, in particular BBC and NPR do a fair job, especially in their verification and accuracy, but the bias that they project is in what they report, in what context, and what they don't report. I'm not familiar with Jon Stewart.

Seriously, back in the 1980s I served in the U.S. military in many capacities, as I speak fluent Russian and held a security clearance.. I was present at several debriefings of defectors .. uniformly, they were the products of state controlled propaganda news, Pravda, Izvestia, and military publications, and their world views reflected this.. I won't get into details, but it was as warped and twisted as you can imagine. You truthfully can't use the word 'objective' with al Jazeera .. it's not what they're about. http://www.stopaljazeera.org/

Numerous media watchdog groups,  such as 'Accuracy in Media' http://www.aim.org/ and others, can't even come up with a scale to measure the distortions and lies that al Jazeera propagates as 'news'..  so in essence, al Jazeera is not a source of News, as we define News in the West. It's difficult to define what al Jazeera is, unless you define it by their hatred.. dar al-Islam vs. dar al-Harb, that's what it's all about. I wonder what world view such a synthesis of 'news' produces?

[Kyuuketsuki]

so in essence, al Jazeera is not a source of News, as we define News in the West. It's difficult to define what al Jazeera is, unless you define it by their hatred.. dar al-Islam vs. dar al-Harb, that's what it's all about. I wonder what world view such a synthesis of 'news' produces?

Actually Al Jazeera (the western service) appears to be quite highly regarded by European liberals (and yes, it was news to me too).

Kyu

[karakara]

so in essence, al Jazeera is not a source of News, as we define News in the West. It's difficult to define what al Jazeera is, unless you define it by their hatred.. dar al-Islam vs. dar al-Harb, that's what it's all about. I wonder what world view such a synthesis of 'news' produces?

Actually Al Jazeera (the western service) appears to be quite highly regarded by European liberals (and yes, it was news to me too).

Kyu

If 'European Liberals' regard al Jazeera "quite highly", then I rest my case ;-) What more evidence do I need???

[Asmodean]

If 'European Liberals' regard al Jazeera "quite highly", then I rest my case ;-) What more evidence do I need???

This European liberal has been living under the rock for a bit there... What wass it I was supposed to regard highly..? Al Jazeera? Is that not just another bought and biased television network like oh, so many others?

[Kyuuketsuki]

If 'European Liberals' regard al Jazeera "quite highly", then I rest my case ;-) What more evidence do I need???

This European liberal has been living under the rock for a bit there... What wass it I was supposed to regard highly..? Al Jazeera? Is that not just another bought and biased television network like oh, so many others?

Apparently not ... people that I know (and respect) consider the AJ Western News service pretty objective in fact The Independent did an article on it saying how keen the Al Jazeera service was to be seen as objective and unbiased. When you think about it, as a major Arabic voice in the west it would make sense that they'd want us to listen and, if so (given that the only people who would listen are the the liberal thinkers, the way to do it is to report stuff well.

That I've heard several people (that I respect) speak highly of the service has made up my mind to give them a chance, my problem is I really don't listen to that kind of things at all so its on my list of things to do.

Kyu

[curiosityandthecat]

Apparently not ... people that I know (and respect) consider the AJ Western News service pretty objective in fact The Independent did an article on it saying how keen the Al Jazeera service was to be seen as objective and unbiased. When you think about it, as a major Arabic voice in the west it would make sense that they'd want us to listen and, if so (given that the only people who would listen are the the liberal thinkers, the way to do it is to report stuff well.

That I've heard several people (that I respect) speak highly of the service has made up my mind to give them a chance, my problem is I really don't listen to that kind of things at all so its on my list of things to do.

Kyu

Bingo.

Al-Jazeera English is a respected news source which, being outside of the America's realm of influence, can report in ways the western media cannot. I don't go there to build my ideologies and construct opinions; I go there to get the "other side" of the news that, often enough, portrays America in less-than-flattering light. Whenever a news source critiques your own country, it's worth paying attention.

I'm not familiar with Jon Stewart.

The voice of our generation.