HOORAY for atheism!!!

[karakara]

Friend, why would you vandalize church signs?  I don't see this as an appropriate analogy.

It's to illustrate a point. Nothing more.

The idea that these messages on buses will somehow hurt the souls of religious folk is, in my opinion, laughable. You want to talk about walking a mile in someone else's shoes? You were an atheist, karakara. You understand the level of Christian hegemony and privilege in the western world. We walk in those shoes every day. We have no alternative. We live in Rome, and are, much to our chagrin, pretty much doing as the Romans do just to get along.

If someone's faith is shaken to the core because they see a sign on a bus that reads "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." then, well, I'd say they were about ready to lose that faith regardless of the campaign.

You know me; I always like to try it out with other aspects of life and see if it still holds up: what would the equivalent be for gender, race, class? There is no equivalent. "There probably is no God" says nothing about religious people in and of themselves, whereas replacing it with a message aimed toward one of those other demographics would.

The whole idea behind this is to shock, it's to expose people to something they may not have thought before. Will some people be insulted and angry? Of course. Unfortunately for them, there's no law that says they have the right to not be offended.

I don't think this bus banner will 'hurt souls' or will shaken anyone's faith.. I was telling you how religious people will perceive it.

I know about shock, and it's effectiveness: I'm a member of PETA, now I don't pull the stunts on the street that they used to be infamous for, but I do contribute money because on some issue, a shock effect is the only means of getting people's attention. I do understand. I don't condone everything they do either, but on the balance, they do succeed in what they hope to accomplish, albeit slowly.

You think you are somehow affected by the 'hegemony' of Christianity?? Image me, a Sikh, going to work with a TURBAN every day.. talk about  getting the 'evil eye'.. well, I must be a Muslim Terrorist.. better call Homeland Security... fact that Sikhism in it's militant form as a reaction against Islamic Terrorism in India, raised armies, and fought many bloody battles with Muslims, I guess is irrelevant.. that if not for Sikhs, all of India would be Islamic today...  that Sikhs are widely acknowledged as the most 'Christian Like' of the Dharmic faiths gets me no points either... now  we're participating in interfaith dialoge.. what's the alternative?

[curiosityandthecat]

talk about  getting the 'evil eye'.. well, I must be a Muslim Terrorist.. better call Homeland Security...

Atheists are feared and hated more than Muslims.

[karakara]

talk about  getting the 'evil eye'.. well, I must be a Muslim Terrorist.. better call Homeland Security...

Atheists are feared and hated more than Muslims.

Is that a fact? I thought Atheists were largely ignored until they start pulling stunts like 'dissing' religious people with banners on buses ...

[curiosityandthecat]

Is that a fact?

It is, indeed.

Downey, A.  (2007.) The Godless Freshman. Free Inquiry. August/Sept 2007. p. 56-57

Duriez, B.  (2004.)  Are religious people nicer people? Taking a closer look at the religion-empathy relationship.  Mental Health, Religion & Culture. 7(3), 249-254.

Edgell, P.,  Gerteis, J., and Hartmann, D.  (2006.)  Atheists As "Other": Moral Boundaries and Cultural Membership in American Society.  American Sociological Review.  71(2), 211-234.

Hout, M. & Fischer, C.  (2002.)  Why More Americans Have No Religious Preference: Politics and Generations.  American Sociological Review. 67(2), 165-190.

Rowatt, W. C., Franklin L. M.  (2004.) "Christian Orthodoxy, Religious Fundamentalism, and Right-Wing Authoritarianism as Predictors of Implicit Racial Prejudice." International Journal for the Psychology of Religion, 14(2), 125-138.

And, just for good measure, a link to the Association of Religion Data Archives, specifically the QuickStats about US attitudes toward religion and spirituality: http://www.thearda.com/quickstats/qsdir.asp

[karakara]

Is that a fact?

It is, indeed.

Downey, A.  (2007.) The Godless Freshman. Free Inquiry. August/Sept 2007. p. 56-57

Duriez, B.  (2004.)  Are religious people nicer people? Taking a closer look at the religion-empathy relationship.  Mental Health, Religion & Culture. 7(3), 249-254.

Edgell, P.,  Gerteis, J., and Hartmann, D.  (2006.)  Atheists As "Other": Moral Boundaries and Cultural Membership in American Society.  American Sociological Review.  71(2), 211-234.

Hout, M. & Fischer, C.  (2002.)  Why More Americans Have No Religious Preference: Politics and Generations.  American Sociological Review. 67(2), 165-190.

Rowatt, W. C., Franklin L. M.  (2004.) "Christian Orthodoxy, Religious Fundamentalism, and Right-Wing Authoritarianism as Predictors of Implicit Racial Prejudice." International Journal for the Psychology of Religion, 14(2), 125-138.

And, just for good measure, a link to the Association of Religion Data Archives, specifically the QuickStats about US attitudes toward religion and spirituality: http://www.thearda.com/quickstats/qsdir.asp

There is a lot of hostility toward atheists, no doubt, to the point of violence.. very regrettable. And having admitted that, I don't think putting provocative banners on buses will do anything other than aggravate the situation. I don't see it as productive. Real education is productive. Unless you're talking about 'Fundamentalists', who by definition are not open to any beliefs outside of those they believe through their 'extreme' interpretations of their faiths..  well we are, at the animal level, cliquish/clannish and territorial primates who do not naturally feel comfortable around people who don't outwardly look, act and believe as we do.. isn't it better to engage individuals in meaningful conversation and in doing show them your 'humanity', rather than poke a stick.. admittedly, BACK in their eyes.. be, as an Atheist, a better 'Christian', than the 'Christian' (or person of any other faith) who treats you in an unChristian-like fashion.. is all I'd say. I don't see how that could fail to open some eyes and change some hearts.

Sat Nam

[McQ]

Well, at least we're back to buses.  

And Kyu...I know very well that I can split the thread. Please don't misinterpret my message. The ones in red are sort of like saying, "Stop screwing around and get back on track." You can do that just as easily. The point, which you are consistently ignoring, is that you are treating this thread as your own personal forum for inflating an argument that has no business even being discussed. As I said, take it to PMs, or start a thread of your own that is relevant to it.

karakara is correct in his statements regarding this thread and this entire section. It is the Religion section.

Stick to the buses, gang. Last time I'll bring it up nicely.

[Tom62]

Back to the buses again, although I must admit that I found the "battle of the wills" pretty interesting. I agree with karakara that the impact of the text on the buses could be negative.  Education and good deeds are more important helpful than a slogan. But like the others already mentioned in their posts, it is a difficult job to accomplish. Many Christians think that we are an angry bunch of people. The postings that I and some others make against theists here in this forum prove that.  In "real" life I'm not so much different than most theists (fundamental theists excluded of course). I like to help people out, try to do the right things, love my family, etc. To be honest instead of quarreling with, in my opinion, very decent theists that we've seen recently here on this forum, I rather have a drink with them. Sh#t, I'm side tracking again   .

[karadan]

Well anywhoo, i think it is ok to put an atheist slogan on a bus. There are plenty of posters around promoting god so i don't see why we can't do the same. I doubt the atheist slogans will feature as many scenes of someone being tortured either.

That's the last i'll say on the matter

[Kyuuketsuki]

OK Kyu, I'm just going to let most of that slide rather than engage you in endless, and probably pointless, back and forth.. I always invite anyone to suddenly declare victory. Go ahead  if you want.. matters not. Consistent with my previous observations that we're 'talking past each other', you won't be surprised that I disagree with much, but not all, of what you've just said.

I don't think "we" are talking past each other, I think you are simply avoiding the point I made though I will grant that your last posts were some kind of attempt to do so, they just missed.

On the subject of respect I repeat you have to convince me that your views are worthy of respect before I actually give it ... respect is earned! Let me try another analogy ... if you were a racist (and I'm reasonably confident you aren't) would you expect me to respect that view? Even if you held strongly to a belief that you were in some way superior to other races? Of course you wouldn't, no reasonable person would. That's the point I was making there ... respect (especially in an arena such as this) needs to be earned.

As for experience of god, what of it? I was born and brought up a Catholic ... I worshipped the gods (or god) of Cathol, I believed the whole shebang. I know what it is to believe, I completely bought into the thing but I'm better now.

Yes I did criticize your religion ... by use of my invisible flying purple people eater analogy so my question as to why you'd think I'd care about your faith not being strong enough was entirely valid.

Yes my posts are directed largely against the Abrahamic faiths (specifically Christianity) because it's what I know ... other faiths don't escape but I target them less quite simply through lack of experience (and to be fair, interest).

Kyu

[Kyuuketsuki]

And Kyu...I know very well that I can split the thread. Please don't misinterpret my message. The ones in red are sort of like saying, "Stop screwing around and get back on track." You can do that just as easily. The point, which you are consistently ignoring, is that you are treating this thread as your own personal forum for inflating an argument that has no business even being discussed. As I said, take it to PMs, or start a thread of your own that is relevant to it.

And I repeat McQ that I DID NOT divert the thread I simply followed where it was going and subsequently attempted to get someone to adhere to the generally accepted standards of debate. Nor am I using this as my personal forum!

I will however abandon this thread entirely and will put Karakara on my ignore list.

Kyu

[karakara]

I don't think "we" are talking past each other, I think you are simply avoiding the point I made though I will grant that your last posts were some kind of attempt to do so, they just missed.

Yes, that must be it.. it's never you.

On the subject of respect I repeat you have to convince me that your views are worthy of respect before I actually give it ... respect is earned! Let me try another analogy ... if you were a racist (and I'm reasonably confident you aren't) would you expect me to respect that view? Even if you held strongly to a belief that you were in some way superior to other races? Of course you wouldn't, no reasonable person would. That's the point I was making there ... respect (especially in an arena such as this) needs to be earned.

Respect needs to earned.. and until such time, if ever, as you deem something 'respect-worth', you show.. contempt.  

As for experience of god, what of it? I was born and brought up a Catholic ... I worshipped the gods (or god) of Cathol, I believed the whole shebang. I know what it is to believe, I completely bought into the thing but I'm better now.

So we're not talking past each other, eh?? Again, you have dismissively glossed over a key point that I made..so what of your Catholic upbringing.. has nothing to do with the type of 'God Knowledge', or 'God Experience, God Actualization', etc., that I've been talking about. Sorry, that experience doesn't quality. Nice try, back to your modus operandi of 'condescendingly dismissing' that which you insufficiently knowledgeable of to effectively respond to.

Yes I did criticize your religion ... by use of my invisible flying purple people eater analogy so my question as to why you'd think I'd care about your faith not being strong enough was entirely valid.

Well fine then. Very consistent with your attitude of contempt for everyone and everything.. say, are you a Narcissist?

Yes my posts are directed largely against the Abrahamic faiths (specifically Christianity) because it's what I know ... other faiths don't escape but I target them less quite simply through lack of experience (and to be fair, interest).

In other words, when you decide to engage me, you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, so how can you possibly respond?


Kyu[/quote]

[karakara]

And Kyu
I will however abandon this thread entirely and will put Karakara on my ignore list.

Kyu

Now who's running away from whom? I wonder if it's even possible for you to get off your cynical, condescending High Horse .. or should I say

"ivory towers"

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2198    (first paragraph, last sentence)

From Wikipedia: "Ivory Towers"

From the 19th century it has been, originally ironically, used to designate a world or atmosphere where intellectuals engage in pursuits that are disconnected from the practical concerns of everyday life. As such, it usually has a pejorative connotation, denoting a willful disconnect from the everyday world; esoteric, over-specialized, or even useless research; and academic elitism, if not outright condescension by those inhabiting the ivory tower. In American English usage it ordinarily denotes the academic world of colleges and universities, particularly scholars of the humanities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower

... just admit that you're at a loss to intelligently respond to most of what I'm talking about because I've thrown you a curve or two .. it's OK, you're only human.

You know, I made more than one overture to you for civility, or at least a truce, but no -- your ego, arrogance and attitude of contempt made that impossible. You're NEVER wrong, even when you're wrong.. and when you don't have an answer.. you dismiss the challenge and run away. I'd say you're the one who's losing credibility here..

Happy hunting, you zealot -- good luck with your 'Search and Destroy' mission against religion and religious people.

[Zarathustra]

I look forward to any response, no matter how insulting or disrespectful.

Here's one, quoting...yes yourself: Everything you wrote is nonsense...  I say 'nonsense', because you're not promoting intelligent discourse, but simply being provocative

Well, as opposed to the 'intelligent discourse' I run into from Atheist with an attack dog mentality and overt hostility toward anything posted in this.

My statement simply referred to the fact, that you keep insulting me, but don't respond to my legitimate questions...? "Intelligent discourse", denotes that you actually RESPOND...but you continue to choose not to. Which made me throw out a groundless asssertion matching yours (even quoting it).

Don't I even get any credit for subjecting myself to attack on enemy turf?? I seem to have ruffled a lot of feathers here..

Yes, you do.  
Although I think you would have a more beneficial experience here, if you didn't percieve us to be your "enemies"...

[karakara]

Zara, Zara... has an endearing ring to it, don't you think? .. rather like 'karakara'...

My statement simply referred to the fact, that you keep insulting me, but don't respond to my legitimate questions...? "Intelligent discourse", denotes that you actually RESPOND...but you continue to choose not to. Which made me throw out a groundless asssertion matching yours (even quoting it).

Keep? I can think of only one 'insult', and that not intentional, but an ill attempt at humour that didn't hit it's mark, but that fact that it was perceived as an insult.. and I believe already apologized for.. should have atoned for that incident.. what else did I do? If you ever choose to peruse through, say, a random sample of my posts, I think you'll see plenty of 'discourse'.. whether it's intelligent or not isn't for me to say ;-)

But specifics aside, your point well taken. If anything, I'm not one to haggle over 'tit for tat' .. that really doesn't lead anywhere unless one both gets some perverse thrill from 'besting' an 'enemy' , and having 'bested'  by your own rules...and posting a ridiculous tutorial for those who have limited experience in debate, argumentation, etc., as in here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2198    on the subject of this post by Kyu, I find it insightful, as I had not discovered it until I went looking around, and I see that Kyu broke some of his own rules with me, which I'd be happy to point out with him except that I'm  on his 'ignore' list.  In fact, I take exception to the tone of that post, as well as to his overall tone from my first encounter with him. I'm feeling better by the minute for immediately recognizing him for what he was, and openly declaring that I would not play by his rules. I would like to tell him that attitudes of hostility, disrespect and naked contempt won't get you very far in the real world.. I suggest he read.. for starters, Dale Carnegie's classic: How To Win Friends And Influence People.. had he use the 'Carnegie Approach' or something similar, I surely would have played by his rules as much as possible.

But talk about looking for 'enemies'... what's the name of this forum!!! I thought I was going to meet some 'HAPPY ATHIESTS'...  and I think I have met a few cheerful examples.. but some people just bring out the worst in you. Do you agree Zara on that last observation?

Zar, I don't think you'll meet a 'religious type' here who has less of a desire to be your enemy.. it's totally against my faith, and my own beliefs that predate my acceptance wholly of Sikhism and God.

Also, and generally so: I'm usually checking in at two or more forums, often from work, and I read, fire off a response, and do it as fast as I can.. sometimes I don't even have time to edit..or rethink something.. I don't have unlimited time to endlessly ponder these issues, but rather give an impromptu, off-the-cuff remark.. this is less than ideal, but better than nothing.

[Zarathustra]

Keep? I can think of only one 'insult', and that not intentional, but an ill attempt at humour that didn't hit it's mark, but that fact that it was perceived as an insult.. .. what else did I do? If you ever choose to peruse through, say, a random sample of my posts, I think you'll see plenty of 'discourse'.. whether it's intelligent or not isn't for me to say ;-)

Well to me it's insulting, when someone disregards my half of the discourse , only to comment (humorous or not) on what I have to say to a completely different individual. And since you kept on disregarding my questions, even after your attempt at humor, I found this insulting as well. As I stated earlier, I think that when you actually do engage in discourse, it comes across as intelligent. My point was, that when one is not ready to substantiate ones claims, it is hardly considered a discourse. All I ask, is that when you assert something (or adress other people's assertions) - that you're willing to back it up by dialogue. I mean what else could be the point of a site like this? As you wrote yourself:

I read, fire off a response, and do it as fast as I can.. sometimes I don't even have time to edit..or rethink something..

Fair enough, that's the case for most of us. The problem was, that you didn't answer me, but dissed a remark that wasn't ment for you. I'd rather have a response to the posts that matter - even if it is not well thought through.  

- Zara