The Quran & Science

[risky]

Here's a couple of links for information about Aristarchus (310 BC) - who first proposed the earth revolves around the sun. The idea that celestial bodies revolved predated Aristarchus. However it's clear that the idea of orbits predated the Quaran.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/biograp ... rchus.html
http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/gre ... archus.htm

“Aristarchus brought out a book consisting of certain hypotheses. . . . His hypotheses are that the fixed stars and the Sun remain unmoved, and that the Earth revolves about the Sun in the circumference of a circle, the Sun lying in the middle of the orbit.” (1)

Earth revolving the sun, spot on. But he also believed the Sun or Stars do not move. Which is incorrect with modern day science. while what the verse states is correct.

Yeah I totally agree with you on the Idea of orbits predating the Quran but none of the theories relating were correct as  you can see.

Source:
1- "http://www.varchive.org/ce/orbit/arisam.htm"

[myleviathan]

Yeah I totally agree with you on the Idea of orbits predating the Quran but none of the theories relating were correct as you can see.

That's the beauty of science. It's not static... it develops, and corrects itself when previous views are erroneous. That's the problem with any canonized religious document. Even when there are views that we consider wrong today (such as justification for slavery, war and murder) people who believe in God (or Allah) and scripture still hang onto these antiquated moral systems that don't work in our increasingly symbiotic world.

There may be a few statements in the Quran (and a number of other religious texts) that seem to agree with accepted modern views (scientific and otherwise), but the fact is that these scriptures really don't edify our understanding of the celestial bodies they speak about. Nor did they predict or cause the dynamic scientific developments responsible for our current knowledge of the universe. These verses are static and stagnant. They're useful as history, but not much more. Like I said before, it's easy to take an ancient text and apply it to hard-won, extensively researched views - but it would be more impressive indeed if the Quran contributed something of the like in the first place.

[risky]

it would be more impressive indeed if the Quran contributed something

Your right, and that can be argued. I'll do exactly that.. even though it may not relate to the thread. (well may be it does ; )

"The Description of Knowledge in the Qur'an and by the Prophet (saas)

There are plenty of references to knowledge and the pursuit of knowledge in the Qur'an. The general feeling they leave the reader with is that the possessor of knowledge or wisdom has been given a very powerful gift, and that the pursuit of knowledge is something which should be done actively by everyone. Here are a few verses on the subject:

     [96:1-5] Read! In the name of your Lord who created - Created the human from something which clings. Read! And your Lord is Most Bountiful - He who taught (the use of) the Pen, Taught the human that which he knew not.

These five verses make up the first passage revealed from the Qur'an to mankind through the Prophet Muhammad (saas). It is interesting that of all the things which Allah chose to begin His revelation with is related to the actions of reading and writing, especially the latter. The ability to write and store information is described by Professor Carl Sagan in his book COSMOS: "Writing is perhaps the greatest of human inventions, binding together people, citizens of distant epochs, who never knew one another. Books break the shackles of time, proof that humans can work magic." [21]

[2:269] He [Allah] grants wisdom to whom He pleases; and he to whom wisdom is granted indeed receives a benefit overflowing. But none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

[20:114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth. Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."

[3:190-191] Verily in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day - there are indeed signs for men of understanding; Men who remember Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the creation of the heavens and the earth (with the thought) "Our Lord! Not for nothing have You created (all) this. Glory to You! Give us salvation from the suffering of the Fire."

These verses are a clear demonstration that 'science' and 'religion' were NOT meant to be fundamentally incompatible with each other by Allah. In fact, verses [3:190-191] strongly imply that "contemplating" the world around us is an integral part of faith.

[29:20] Say: Travel through the earth and see how Allah originated creation; so will Allah produce the second creation (of the Afterlife): for Allah has power over all things.

There are also references in the Qur'an describing the value (in the sight of Allah) of a knowledgeable person as opposed to an ignorant person. They are not equal:

[39:9] ...Say: Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that remember (Allah's Message).

[58:11] ...Allah will raise up to (suitable) ranks (and degrees) those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge."

...

The Relationship Between the Qur'an and Modern Science

Modern scientific theory today finds itself quite close to the Qur'an. There are at least two reasons behind this observation. The first is the lack of inconsistencies between the Qur'an and observable natural phenomena. Science has not been able to produce theories or experiments that fundamentally contradict the Qur'an. Had our science done so, either our understanding of the Qur'an or of the world would have been to blame: the Qur'an itself is true for all times. The second reason for the remarkable harmony between the Qur'an and science is the presence in the Qur'an itself of very clear and positive encouragement to contemplate and investigate the world around us. As the verses quoted above indicate, Allah has not forbidden man to question, and in fact, it seems He wants us to do so.

However, the Qur'an goes beyond simply encouraging all human beings to be aware of the natural world. It also contains widely dispersed references on a variety of subjects which are not only scientifically accurate, but in some cases, quite advanced relative to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (saas). For the Muslim who reads and understands these references, they serve to strengthen his or her faith of course. For the non-Muslim who questions the authenticity or authorship of the Qur'an, these references provide some interesting answers. One possible reason for these Qur'anic verses which describe the natural world can be found in the following verse:

    [41:53] Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (farthest) horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes manifest to them that it is the Truth...

The historical event which this verse alludes to is the conquest of Makkah. However, almost every verse in the Qur'an carries a historical and a universal meaning, and therefore one possible interpretation of this verse is that it refers to the gradual discovery of greater and greater natural "evidence" of the Creator's involvement in our world. Two of the most important and most fascinating goals of modern science are to peer farther and farther out to the edge of the universe, and to look deeper and deeper into the structure of the human body. It is in these two areas that we find the "signature" of Allah's creative power at its strongest.

Source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html
________________________________________________________

Now with that, it could be argued that all this knowledge/invention was indeed created because the Quran may have sparked the mind:

Encyclopedia > Timeline of science and technology in the Islamic world.
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedi ... amic-world

Just one Example of Math...
"1149
Al-Samawal writes al-Bahir fi'l-jabr (The brilliant in algebra). He develops algebra with polynomials using negative powers and zero. He solves quadratic equations, sums the squares of the first n natural numbers, and looks at combinatorial problems."

School_of_Mathematics_and_Statistics
University_of_St_Andrews,_Scotland
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his ... /full.html

If you'd like to go in-depth about certain fields of science that Muslims invented/etc: check: http://www.muslimheritage.com/ (They really go in-depth).

[Tom62]

I'm sorry to say that the Quran, contains a lot of scientific BS.

Some examples

2:31 And He taught Adam all the names,..

Allah taught Adam all the names of the animals and plants. That must have been taken quite some time, because we know of  1.7 million species and there are probably another 10 million still to be named. This include only the species that are still alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names.

27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein..

The Earth is fixed and does not move.

13:2 Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

According to the Quran the sun orbits the Earth

36:40 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

At least the Quran got it half right. The sun doesn't orbit around Earth. Maybe Allah should take some astronomy classes

Not much scientific wisdom here that we can learn from.

[myleviathan]

myleviathan wrote:
it would be more impressive indeed if the Quran contributed something

Your right, and that can be argued. I'll do exactly that.. even though it may not relate to the thread. (well may be it does ; )

The verses mentioned may provide some motivation for Muslims to be educated - which is good infrastructure for learning within Islam. I accept that faith and science aren't mutually exclusive - there are many Muslim scientists and many contributions made by Muslims over the centuries. I don't deny those. In fact I would contend that Muslims in the US tend to be more educated on average than other religious groups.

That being said, just because the Quran, and Muslims in general value education, doesn't make the extrordinary claims of a God any more true than others who claim the same thing. We can readily observe, using our basic five senses that God does not exist, no matter what our educational level is. It's just not reasonable to believe in God when he is nowhere to be found.

[McQ]

Source: The University of Southern California
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html

 This has been a good topic and interesting read up to this point. However, a friendly warning/reminder is in order.

That is a deceptive use of dubious sourcing, Risky.

This is in no way part of or affiliated with the University of Southern California, other than this came from an apparently student sponsored group that happens to be on campus. It is not endorsed by the university in any way. If you are going to quote source material, do so in an up-front manner. This has no scientific merit whatsoever.

[risky]

2:31 And He taught Adam all the names,..

Allah taught Adam all the names of the animals and plants. That must have been taken quite some time, because we know of  1.7 million species and there are probably another 10 million still to be named. This include only the species that are still alive today. If extinct species are included (~99%), then Allah must have taught Adam a billion or so names.

Hey 'God' is 'God', He can do 'anything' right?

In any case if you know about Belief of Adam in Islam, it's 'believed' he was the first human created... lol so how many Animals existed on Earth with the 'beginning of the human race'? (Now of course this is only plausible for people who do believe this lol [I do believe in Evolution but Man from Apes? Not. lol])

27:61 Is not He (best) Who made the earth a fixed abode, and placed rivers in the folds thereof, and placed firm hills therein..

The Earth is fixed and does not move.

Define 'Fixed':securely placed or fastened or set. ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... gle+Search )
Define 'Abode:residence ( http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=de ... tnG=Search )

So "the earth a fixed abode" means, a securely placed residence.

.. now of course, this is what the translator meant because it is in line with other Translations of the verse, You only take it out of 'context'. In what it is meant to say..

For example:

"YUSUFALI:Or, Who has made the earth firm to live in; made rivers in its midst; set thereon mountains immovable; and made a separating bar between the two bodies of flowing water? (can there be another) god besides Allah? Nay, most of them know not."
SHAKIR: Or, Who made the earth a restingplace, and made in it rivers, and raised on it mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier. Is there a god with Allah? Nay! most of them do not know!

( http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/027.qmt.html )

13:2 Allah it is Who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.

According to the Quran the sun orbits the Earth

How does "each runneth unto an appointed term" even relate to the sun orbiting the earth? lol Please do explain.

36:40 It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.

At least the Quran got it half right. The sun doesn't orbit around Earth. Maybe Allah should take some astronomy classes

41:12 Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

Funny that Allah doesn't  know what stars are.

A Metaphor ever cross your mind?

67:3 Who hath created seven heavens in harmony. Thou (Muhammad) canst see no fault in the Beneficent One's creation; then look again: Canst thou see any rifts?

Allah asks Muhammed to examine the sky to see if it has any cracks.

Not really, lol
Define 'Rift': gap or break ( http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/ ... 1861702748 )

So do you see any Gaps or breaks in the 'sky'? If you wish to equate, the 'Seven Heavens' to the Sky.

67:5 And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

Allah made the stars for missiles to throw at devils for which he has prepared a doom of flame  

Personally though.. my 'Faith' in Allah (God) is reaffirmed by what I've seen in the Quran, relating to science that are compatible,like spot on with science. lol Even though some may say it was Luck/etc . But the amount of things that do agree are like Wowzers lol... but thats me though : )  So it makes me feel like.. my faith isn't so 'blind' anymore.. lol as Albert Einstein said, “Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.” (1)

Also since there are no revisions of the Quran every year, as opposed to the the Bible lol or new 'versions' of the Quran.. The Quran is only in Arabic, Translation of it is merely a translation, Unlike the Bible.. lol and actually since they can't agree on what is the Bible (Protestants & Catholics).. + Clear contradictions.. in it.. lol (i could state a few ; )

(1) http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/24949.html

@McQ My fault, it won't happen again.

*~Sorry if I mislead anyone with my Titling of this source: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/scislam.html ~*

[risky]

Fingertips

"“Does man think that We Cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put Together in perfect order The very tips of his fingers.” [Al-Qur’aan 75:3-4]

Unbelievers argue regarding resurrection taking place after bones of dead people have disintegrated in the earth and how each individual would be
identified on the Day of Judgement. Almighty Allah answers that He can not only assemble our bones but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips.

Why does the Qur’aan, while speaking about determination of the identity of the individual, speak specifically about fingertips? In 1880, fingerprinting
became the scientific method of identification, after research done by Sir Francis Golt. No two persons in the world can ever have exactly the same
fingerprint pattern. That is the reason why police forces worldwide use fingerprints to identify the criminal. 1400 years ago, who could have known
the uniqueness of each human’s fingerprint?" (1)


Some History:

"14th Century A.D. - Many official government documents in Persia have fingerprint impressions. One government physician makes the observation that no two fingerprints were an exact match." (2)

[800+ years after the Quran was revealed]

"1686 - At the University of Bologna in Italy, a professor of anatomy named Marcello Malpighi notes the common characteristics of spirals, loops and ridges in fingerprints, using the newly invented microscope for his studies. In time, a 1.88mm thick layer of skin, the “Malpighi layer,” was named after him. Although Malpighi was likely the first to document types of fingerprints, the value of fingerprints as identification tools was never mentioned in his writings." (2)

"1823 - A thesis is published by Johannes Evengelista Purkinje, professor of anatomy with the University of Breslau, Prussia. The thesis details a full nine different fingerprint patterns. Still, like Malpighi, no mention is made of fingerprints as an individual identification method. " (2)

"1888 - Sir Francis Galton’s began his study of fingerprints during the 1880s, primarily to develop a tool for determining genetic history and hereditary traits. Through careful study of the work of Faulds, which he learned of through his cousin Sir Charles Darwin, as well as his examination of fingerprints collected by Sir William Herschel, Galton became the first to provide scientific evidence that no two fingerprints are exactly the same, and that prints remain the same throughout a person’s lifetime. He calculated that the odds of finding two identical fingerprints were 1 in 64 billion." (2)


Source:
1- http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf
2- http://www.fingerprintamerica.com/finge ... istory.asp )

*~(Btw: The 2 sources disagree by 8 years on which the time Galton discovery's this knowledge lol)

[myleviathan]

Personally though.. my 'Faith' in Allah (God) is reaffirmed by what I've seen in the Quran, relating to science that are compatible,like spot on with science.

If science were compatible, spot on, with the Quaran - I think everybody would be a Muslim, including myself. Clearly, it's not as spot on as you say.

Almighty Allah answers that He can not only assemble our bones but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips.

I have more contentions with the idea of resurrection than I do about whether the author knew specifically about fingerprint technology. There is no scientific support of resurrection of any type. Having said that... apparently fingerprints have been used for a long, long time for identification purposes. The author should have been well aware of how unique they are.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... ntech_0728

(I know this is not an academic source, but a quick Google search sites dozens of online sources about the history of fingerprinting, so it seems to be mainly common knowledge)

[risky]

Personally though.. my 'Faith' in Allah (God) is reaffirmed by what I've seen in the Quran, relating to science that are compatible,like spot on with science.

If science were compatible, spot on, with the Quaran - I think everybody would be a Muslim, including myself. Clearly, it's not as spot on as you say.

Almighty Allah answers that He can not only assemble our bones but can also reconstruct perfectly our very fingertips.

I have more contentions with the idea of resurrection than I do about whether the author knew specifically about fingerprint technology. There is no scientific support of resurrection of any type. Having said that... apparently fingerprints have been used for a long, long time for identification purposes. The author should have been well aware of how unique they are.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoverie ... ntech_0728

(I know this is not an academic source, but a quick Google search sites dozens of online sources about the history of fingerprinting, so it seems to be mainly common knowledge)

Yup yup, the Tang dynasty in China  & in Babylon, but there is no reference concerning that they knew that, no two fingerprints are the same. That was in the 14th century by a Persian, which i posted in the 'history' of fingerprinting; I only posted to what was related in the knowing of it... It was only in the 19th century that it was discovered no two people have the same fingerprint. No one knew that for thousands of years lol. So it states pretty much to the effect that everyone will be resurrected & that even their fingertips will be reconstructed perfectly, relating to everyone's meaning no one has the same fingerprint. No one knew, that no two fingerprints were alike back then.

(Well actually, i've heard of some Russian scientists wanting to bring back some extinct animals through cloning with some genes that remained ( Heard I'm to lazy to get the article lol tomorrow perhaps... when im not tired ; ).) lol so that in a sense is 'resurrection' but of course we won't get resurrected until 'judgment day' is over.. But of course that is a religious belief haha and can't be 'proven' until it happens then i guess we'll all find out if its true or not lol

[risky]

"He hath loosed the two seas. They meet. There is a barrier between them. They encroach not (one upon the other)."
55:19-20
_______________________________________________________________

"Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them." (1)

"It is a necessity that seas intermingle through straits between them. The Koran however is aware of a very unusual phenomenon, which scientists discovered only recently. The Mediterranean and Atlantic oceans differ in their chemical and biological constitution. The French scientist Jacques Yves Cousteau conducted various undersea investigations at the Strait of Gibraltar and explaining these phenomena concluded:

"Unexpected fresh water springs issue from the southern and northern coasts of Gibraltar. These mammoth springs gush towards each other at angles of 45 degrees forming a reciprocal dam. Due to this fact the Mediterranean and the Atlantic Oceans cannot intermingle (as quoted by Nurbaki)." (2)

According to the Cousteau Society; Jacques Yves was born on 11 June 1910 & Died on 25 June 1997. (3)


Sources:
1- http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf
2- http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistgr ... ence.shtml
3- http://www.cousteau.org/jyc.html
___________________________________________________________________________________
For more on Jacques Yves visit:  http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var ... steau.html

[Jolly Sapper]

...

 lol so that in a sense is 'resurrection' but ...l

It feels like a bit of a stretch to equate cloning and the idea of "resurrection."  A clone can be created that will have the same DNA as its parent/donor but the organism that is cloned still isn't the same organism that the DNA came from.

Having a physical copy of something counts as being "resurrected" as the clone won't have the same experiences that the donor of the DNA had.  If there were a clone of me made today, it would be 26 years younger than me.  It would grow up in a different place and time, in a different way, with different parents, and live its life with different experiences.  It would be in effect a wholly different person than me, even if we shared the same DNA.

[risky]

Very good point stupid example on my part lol

[jrosebud]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

One or two convenient overlapping topics don't negate the non-scientific absurdities in the rest of the book.

[risky]

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/denis_giron/islamsci.html

One or two convenient overlapping topics don't negate the non-scientific absurdities in the rest of the book.

LoL Denis Giron here is a rebuttal to his 'article'

In response to his spew on the Quran and the Bible and the Creation of Earth:

"Taken from “Quran and Bible in the Light of Science” debate, which can be accessed here http://www.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFile ... Zakir_Naik

 Dr Zakir Naik says:

Let us analyse what the Bible says about modern science - First we deal with Astronomy., The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’.  How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ?  The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?  Point No..4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’  Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun â€" It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?

So the bible really is wrong." (1)

You know i realize instead of bringing everything from the site to here, just take a look for yourself. The responses are quite extensive... and i'd be doing more 'spamming' then anything else so take a look for yourself.

Source: (The Source Is the link lol)

1-  http://www.answering-christianity.com/b ... buttal.htm

It can be deduced that Denis has no proof the Quran is 'incorrect'/false/absurd; but he does speak his opinion oh so well ; )


[Anywho, this should disprove all the nonsense he states if it doesn't please inform me :]

Hope this helped you out jrosebud.