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Judas Iscariot- heaven or hell?

Started by susangail, June 02, 2008, 07:28:56 AM

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jamesatracy

#15
July 03, 2008, 05:41:27 PM
Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?

Will

#16
July 03, 2008, 05:44:54 PM
Quote from: "jamesatracy"Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?
I'm just guessing. Someone who doesn't believe in hell, but is still "Christian" might believe one of four things:
1) They also go to heaven
2) They go to purgatory or some other place
3) They are reincarnated
4) Their "soul" ceases to be

Conversion would make sense for #2-4 as heaven is generally considered, by default, to be the best place ever. Not sure about the Jesus one, though.
I want bad people to look forward to and celebrate the day I die, because if they don't, I'm not living up to my potential.

susangail

#17
July 03, 2008, 06:14:20 PM
Quote from: "jamesatracy"Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?
Maybe the non-believers cease to exist after they die?
Some Christians try to convert non-believers simply because they care. They want them to have what they consider to be a better life. To some Christians, a life without God is a horrible and empty one, and they hope to save people from that.
When life gives you lemons, make orange juice and let the world wonder how you did it.

afreethinker30

#18
July 03, 2008, 06:41:20 PM
The Methodist church I use to attend said that Judas was doing what he was told to do.That he has such faith in Christ that he knew there was a reason behind it.Judas in our church wasn't the bad guy,he was just being a good Christian.You would think that Jesus being who he is would have known if Judas was a traitor.For the Gospel of Judas no one can seem to agree on translation.But Will is right it depends on who you talk to when it comes to Judas.Yet another thing people can't seem to agree on.

susangail

#19
July 03, 2008, 06:57:06 PM
Quote from: "afreethinker30"The Methodist church I use to attend said that Judas was doing what he was told to do.That he has such faith in Christ that he knew there was a reason behind it.Judas in our church wasn't the bad guy,he was just being a good Christian.You would think that Jesus being who he is would have known if Judas was a traitor.For the Gospel of Judas no one can seem to agree on translation.But Will is right it depends on who you talk to when it comes to Judas.Yet another thing people can't seem to agree on.
People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...
When life gives you lemons, make orange juice and let the world wonder how you did it.

afreethinker30

#20
July 03, 2008, 07:05:51 PM
Quote from: "susangail"
Quote from: "afreethinker30"The Methodist church I use to attend said that Judas was doing what he was told to do.That he has such faith in Christ that he knew there was a reason behind it.Judas in our church wasn't the bad guy,he was just being a good Christian.You would think that Jesus being who he is would have known if Judas was a traitor.For the Gospel of Judas no one can seem to agree on translation.But Will is right it depends on who you talk to when it comes to Judas.Yet another thing people can't seem to agree on.
People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

Yes there is I'll post what I can find out it.Oh if anyone can find a working link to the translation would you please post it? :D
NGC http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/      
NGC Photo Gallery http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0605/feature2/gallery1.html
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_judas/
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/gospel_of_judas/Parooltrans8-9.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12186080/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

MikeyV

#21
July 03, 2008, 09:56:43 PM
Quote from: "susangail"People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

There are quite a few non-canonical books that were left out based on the decisions of the council of Nicea. The most famous collection is the Nag Hammadi library, also called the Gnostic Gospels.This guy found 12 leather bound codices buried in a clay jar near Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945.

Among the texts were the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Thomas, and interestingly enough, a heavily modified version of Plato's Republic.

The Gospel of Judas was found in a 4th century Coptic text that was discovered in Beni Masah, Egypt in the 70s. The National Geographic has been heavily involved in its translation.

The entire Nag Hammadi Library is available here and the Gospel of Judas is available here.
Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves
you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the
most awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save
it for someone you love.
   
   -- Butch Hancock.

Dickson

#22
July 04, 2008, 01:28:44 AM
Quote from: "jamesatracy"Okay, but....If a Christian believes in heaven but not hell, then what happens to unbelievers when they die? Do they go to heaven to? What would be the point of converting anybody? Why would Jesus die on the cross if not to save people from hell?

I don't know what happens to nonbelievers when they die because, to me, my faith isn't about some reward at the end of the race.  My relationship with God enriches my life--death isn't so much of a concern for me.  

Jesus' death wasn't necessarily a ticket to a wonderful afterlife.  His life provided a model for all people, whether or not they believe he was an incarnation of God.
"If there is a God,
I know he likes to rock"
--Billy Corgan

myleviathan

#23
July 04, 2008, 02:19:24 AM
QuoteThere is no Hell.  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm a Christian who doesn't believe in hell.  That's a whole other conversation entirely (but, I'm not alone on this).

Hell is a Biblical concept, taken from certain verses in the Gospels, like the story about Lazarus, specifically. Are you rejecting the canon of scripture, acknowledging that it may be erroneous?
"On the moon our weekends are so far advanced they encompass the entire week. Jobs have been phased out. We get checks from the government, and we spend it on beer! Mexican beer! That's the cheapest of all beers." --- Ignignokt & Err

afreethinker30

#24
July 04, 2008, 02:35:13 AM
Quote from: "MikeyV"
Quote from: "susangail"People keep mentioning the Gospel of Judas. There is one? Is it like one of those left out ones? All I know is Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John...

There are quite a few non-canonical books that were left out based on the decisions of the council of Nicea. The most famous collection is the Nag Hammadi library, also called the Gnostic Gospels.This guy found 12 leather bound codices buried in a clay jar near Nag Hammadi, Egypt in 1945.

Among the texts were the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Thomas, and interestingly enough, a heavily modified version of Plato's Republic.

The Gospel of Judas was found in a 4th century Coptic text that was discovered in Beni Masah, Egypt in the 70s. The National Geographic has been heavily involved in its translation.

The entire Nag Hammadi Library is available here and the Gospel of Judas is available here.

I can't get that link to work. :(  Will probley need to reset cookies.Oh joy.

MikeyV

#25
July 04, 2008, 02:53:24 AM
Hmm. The Gnostic site was pretty slow and unresponsive earlier today, but it seems fine now.
Life in Lubbock, Texas taught me two things. One is that God loves
you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the
most awful, dirty thing on the face of the earth and you should save
it for someone you love.
   
   -- Butch Hancock.

EvolutionCalling

#26
July 04, 2008, 02:57:53 AM
I didn't read this, but based on the title I vote hell.

MariaEvri

#27
July 04, 2008, 11:50:12 AM
Quote from: "Dickson"
Quote from: "MariaEvri"and yet when I ask people why they burn judas at easter, ince he actually did Gods will, they stare at me and say "you think too much". Go figure


Hang on--people burn Judas at Easter?  Yikes.  I've lived in Mississippi all my life and I've never heard of such.

well its a greek orthodox custom. every saturday night at the church, before the easter sunday, they burn a judas thingy made of straw. THis now turned into some sort of a contest between kinds, which neighbourhood will collect the more wood and have the biggest fire. The few last years the church in my neighbourhood was almost burned because of the huge fire XD
God made me an atheist, who are you to question his wisdom!
www.poseidonsimons.com

Dickson

#28
July 04, 2008, 03:49:50 PM
Quote from: "myleviathan"Hell is a Biblical concept, taken from certain verses in the Gospels, like the story about Lazarus, specifically. Are you rejecting the canon of scripture, acknowledging that it may be erroneous?


Easily, scripture can (and does) contain things that aren't true.  I don't worship the Bible:  I worship God.  I view scripture as Cliff's Notes to God:  some good ideas, but some not-so-good ones, too.  Now, I don't dismiss scripture entirely just because I disagree with some of what's in there, just like I don't dismiss Augustine or Nietzsche or Spong just because I don't jive with all their ideas either.  


Sidebar:  I'm barbecuing for the 4th today and trying not to think of the burning Judas we talked about earlier.   :shock:
"If there is a God,
I know he likes to rock"
--Billy Corgan

afreethinker30

#29
July 04, 2008, 04:42:13 PM
I keep thinking of the kids game telephone.You know where one child whispers something to another,then that one whispers to another.And how at the end you have something different then what you started with.Alot of things are like that religion is one.I'm sure in all religions it started out with one person telling another,so on..Things eventually get mixed up and turned around.
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