I am a Christian.

[mattreed]

I will not lie in my opinion that I am upset with the choice you have made to forsake God, but I whole-heartedly respect your free-will and therefore respect entirely your right to your opinion, allow my personal view of sadness in your decision to bias your view of my words, because I am biased equally, for me to hide my opinion would be hypocritical and lying, and religion in these and past times has been such a brewery of hypocrisy, corruption, deception, self-service, and hidden bias in the cloak of all-goodness with nothing wrong in their ways. Such a brood of vipers, the most evil in this world comes in the guise of righteousness. I am not above you, you are not below me, we occupy this earth at the same level, and your reasoning in your opinion is completely understood by me, because I myself at one time had forsaken God. I was in a pit of sorrow and I pulled myself out without the help of God, I became my own master, such comfort in this, such power in this, no more hidden secrets, no more undefined walls.

But then, then I failed myself, but I overcame and was better from it! Then the world lashed at me, and I overcame it and sneered at those who wanted me to fail. And time went on, and I was the person I wanted to be, I was of reason and logic. And I looked around me and I would pity those who put their trust and hope into some invisible force when they could be trusting in themselves, and I was my own master. People would look up to me because of my reason and logic and control over my emotions and then I reached a strange point. I reached a point where I couldn’t completely explain my ability. I am a musician, a filmmaker, a writer, a hand to paper artist, a philosopher, a scientist, I am all of these things, but I reached a point of contemplation where I realized that I was given the ability to learn all of these things from outside. All of my abilities did not come from me; I would be a liar if I took credit for the environment, the books, and the teachers that gave me the material that through my perception I turned into ability. I did not invent the guitar or the movie camera. You will say the names of the humans that made these things, but they arrived at their discoveries in the same manner I arrived at my abilities. Darwin made his discoveries of evolution by studying the animals of the Galapagos, Darwin did not invent evolution. I have great logic and reason, but from where is my model of logic and reason derived. I am a person who to my greatest pain denies ignorance, and looking back on my original forsakenness of God, I realized I decided out of personal negativities, I did not come to my decision from my self-proclaimed reason and logic but from selfishness, I was being hypocritical in this moment.

So I turn to science, to the perfection of human, to the strait edges that geometry provide, and in my newly realized thought process I noticed an amazing flaw in science. How science would describe in human language an event, give specific quantity to non-quantified space, and when something disagrees then it is re-evaluated and further perfected. But how limiting is this, to create description, yes the undefined is defined but is it then owned? A male and female come together, seamen reaches the egg, and cells mingle into a child. It is described beautifully by science but something irked me to no end, the process is complete without man’s intervention. There was a proverbial blow to my gut, and I took a new look at science= description… description… description.
Yes, I know how the seed sprouts and feeds from light and becomes a tree providing oxygen from carbon dioxide, but I cannot craft a seed. Even if I could create my own tree, I am in denial unless I realize that I am an imitator. I may even be able to construct a better tree, but there will always be that first tree to guide my judgment. I always have to rely on sunshine if I expect my tree to grow, and the sun can be defined by me, but even my creation of a sun comes off ever jealous in the design of the original by which was my teacher. I did not give myself my hands, even if their form and function evolved, I do not govern the intelligence behind evolutions decisions. Evolution a series of random congregation, HA! The bird is too stupid in brain size to know that the only way to survive is by elongating its beak to quench its thirst from the blood of the animals on the small island. My lack of acceptance of a Master Creator was derived in selfishness and ignorance. I don’t want to even consider that I would be held accountable for my mistakes and my inner thoughts of negativity, but the universe is perfect balance, and everything exists because it is meant to be. To write off my emotions as brain electrical charges would mean my pride in my intelligence was simply an electrical connection from my penis to my mouth. And because I was so willing to hurt others to stand up for my self-mastery, surely my convictions were more than a longing for self-released chemicals, because those chemicals were put in the right place at the right moments and somehow out of my control I was known to feed so viciously on their sweet reactions.

I am not an empty shell, and even in my highest moments of showcasing my abilities, I was always describing an already existing form, and my logic would leave me with a description of processes with unexplained origins, I turned myself into a machine. No. I cannot be a machine because no one else is me; no one else is exactly in the position behind my eyes I am, no one knows my thought processes except myself. I returned to the beginning of the discovery of myself and realized my longing to reason, to describe, would isolate me, and make me easier to be lead, a professional would make claims and I would assume he was correct because of his reason. I would give others authority over me because I believed them in their reason. I had become quantified, but I refuse to be this, because I had found a layer deeper and refuse to ignore it because of my walls of reason, no.

God made me into what I am, science did not make me, science has no way except to clone or imitate my creation, all creation. Science cannot remove the unbalance I throw my moral balance into, Jesus Christ’s maximum sacrifice can and does forgive me every time I make a mistake, I am imperfect, and Jesus saves me time and time again. If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing. There is nothing you can do that cannot be forgiven, you simply have to be genuine in your apology, and knowingly stop yourself in future circumstance, through Jesus Christ my uncontrolled judgment in death is solidified, such comfort in such an unknown abyss, if you see it as delusion then so be it, it is a delusion of true invincibility, to those who know it as truth, it is true invincibility, because my spirit continues eternally. Explain your sadness and happiness to me, I believe it to be the response of your spirit to your circumstance, I do not mentally decide to be sad. If everything is randomness, it is incredible randomness guided by an intelligent source, to think otherwise is to feed ignorance and to support the limits of man-made logical description, they almost had me in their pocket, but God made himself apparent to me personally, not all of us are so lucky. I said in my mind that I knew he could turn a green liquid to red if He wanted to, then He did it that moment before my eyes, He proved to me that day that science is governed by Him. I was searching for God without knowing it, and because I longed for Him, because I made the decision to challenge logic and its obvious boundaries, God made Himself apparent to me because it was Him I was seeking. I am no longer limited by what is defined! I can continue my pursuit of knowledge un-afflicted! I cannot be controlled or influenced because I only take heed from my direct Creator, death brings no fear, fear is made-up, negativity is a choice that you convince yourself is necessity, other ways besides God’s ways bring misery, but you have God given free-will and you can believe whatever you want, these are simply my own opinions in why I am disappointed in your atheistic decisions.

[pjkeeley]

To write off my emotions as brain electrical charges would mean my pride in my intelligence was simply an electrical connection from my penis to my mouth.

 

[joeactor]

I'm so sorry.

I really tried to read your posting.

But as I read I could feel my intelligence dropping, and my self-preservation instict kicked in.

Please don't blame yourself.

It's not you, really.

It's me.

I'm just smarter than that.

Equally Condescending,
JoeActor

[Will]

I reached a point where I couldn’t completely explain my ability. I am a musician, a filmmaker, a writer, a hand to paper artist, a philosopher, a scientist, I am all of these things, but I reached a point of contemplation where I realized that I was given the ability to learn all of these things from outside.

Zeus?

So I turn to science, to the perfection of human, to the strait edges that geometry provide, and in my newly realized thought process I noticed an amazing flaw in science. How science would describe in human language an event, give specific quantity to non-quantified space, and when something disagrees then it is re-evaluated and further perfected. But how limiting is this, to create description, yes the undefined is defined but is it then owned? A male and female come together, seamen reaches the egg, and cells mingle into a child. It is described beautifully by science but something irked me to no end, the process is complete without man’s intervention. There was a proverbial blow to my gut, and I took a new look at science= description… description… description.

This is a bit odd. You're "irked" by science because it's so scientific? You should try philosophy if you're interested in the meaning behind the fact, but so far as fact are concerned science is where it's at.

Yes, I know how the seed sprouts and feeds from light and becomes a tree providing oxygen from carbon dioxide, but I cannot craft a seed. Even if I could create my own tree, I am in denial unless I realize that I am an imitator. I may even be able to construct a better tree, but there will always be that first tree to guide my judgment. I always have to rely on sunshine if I expect my tree to grow, and the sun can be defined by me, but even my creation of a sun comes off ever jealous in the design of the original by which was my teacher. I did not give myself my hands, even if their form and function evolved, I do not govern the intelligence behind evolutions decisions. Evolution a series of random congregation, HA!

Evolution is not random, Matt. Genetic variation has an element of chance, but natural selection is not random in the slightest. The survival and reproductive success of an species is directly related to the ways its inherited traits work in the context of its environment. It's a system of selection which occurs naturally.

The bird is too stupid in brain size to know that the only way to survive is by elongating its beak to quench its thirst from the blood of the animals on the small island. My lack of acceptance of a Master Creator was derived in selfishness and ignorance. I don’t want to even consider that I would be held accountable for my mistakes and my inner thoughts of negativity, but the universe is perfect balance, and everything exists because it is meant to be. To write off my emotions as brain electrical charges would mean my pride in my intelligence was simply an electrical connection from my penis to my mouth. And because I was so willing to hurt others to stand up for my self-mastery, surely my convictions were more than a longing for self-released chemicals, because those chemicals were put in the right place at the right moments and somehow out of my control I was known to feed so viciously on their sweet reactions.

I really hope you can elaborate on this brain-penis connection. Do you really think pride comes from your penis? Still, you do win the award for most original sentence on the forum. Possibly the world.

I am not an empty shell, and even in my highest moments of showcasing my abilities, I was always describing an already existing form, and my logic would leave me with a description of processes with unexplained origins, I turned myself into a machine. No. I cannot be a machine because no one else is me; no one else is exactly in the position behind my eyes I am, no one knows my thought processes except myself. I returned to the beginning of the discovery of myself and realized my longing to reason, to describe, would isolate me, and make me easier to be lead, a professional would make claims and I would assume he was correct because of his reason. I would give others authority over me because I believed them in their reason. I had become quantified, but I refuse to be this, because I had found a layer deeper and refuse to ignore it because of my walls of reason, no.

Considering yourself a machine is simply a metaphor from a perspective. We are biological machines, I suppose. Still, in many senses we have traits that are not attributed to machines like creativity and imagination, intuition and the ability to learn, and emotions. Each of these is explainable with science, of course.

God made me into what I am, science did not make me, science has no way except to clone or imitate my creation, all creation.

God and science can't be equated. I doubt anyone worships science as a sentient, supernatural being. It's a field of study, and therefore cannot "make" anything. It can simply explain the process by which you wee made. If you'd like, I can explain that process for you now from start to finish.

Science cannot remove the unbalance I throw my moral balance into, Jesus Christ’s maximum sacrifice can and does forgive me every time I make a mistake, I am imperfect, and Jesus saves me time and time again. If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing. There is nothing you can do that cannot be forgiven, you simply have to be genuine in your apology, and knowingly stop yourself in future circumstance, through Jesus Christ my uncontrolled judgment in death is solidified, such comfort in such an unknown abyss, if you see it as delusion then so be it, it is a delusion of true invincibility, to those who know it as truth, it is true invincibility, because my spirit continues eternally. Explain your sadness and happiness to me, I believe it to be the response of your spirit to your circumstance, I do not mentally decide to be sad. If everything is randomness, it is incredible randomness guided by an intelligent source, to think otherwise is to feed ignorance and to support the limits of man-made logical description, they almost had me in their pocket, but God made himself apparent to me personally, not all of us are so lucky. I said in my mind that I knew he could turn a green liquid to red if He wanted to, then He did it that moment before my eyes, He proved to me that day that science is governed by Him. I was searching for God without knowing it, and because I longed for Him, because I made the decision to challenge logic and its obvious boundaries, God made Himself apparent to me because it was Him I was seeking. I am no longer limited by what is defined! I can continue my pursuit of knowledge un-afflicted! I cannot be controlled or influenced because I only take heed from my direct Creator, death brings no fear, fear is made-up, negativity is a choice that you convince yourself is necessity, other ways besides God’s ways bring misery, but you have God given free-will and you can believe whatever you want, these are simply my own opinions in why I am disappointed in your atheistic decisions.

The greatest sacrifice, and the most heart breaking, is the loss of objectivity, logic, and reason. It's not being tortured for a day.

[Whitney]

Science is about studying the world around us so that we may gain a better understanding of it.....how did you not realize that initially?  Through gaining knowledge of our surrounding environment we are able to do good things such as finding cures for diseases (and these cures often have to be manufactured since they do not occur naturally).  Of course Darwin didn't create evolution...no thinking person believes that he did, he was just the first to explain what was happening in a way that actually made sense and could be tested and verified.  We all stand on the shoulders of others in order to further our knowledge and subsequently that of those around us...that's just being smart.  Why start out at square one when you were placed on square 90 by those who came before you?  Just because we utilize knowledge of the past does not mean there is necessarily anything magical providing that knowledge...it's all about baby steps to progress whether you are talking about knowledge or evolution.  Basically, in not so few words, you just said that you don't get how anything got here in the first place.  Which is an understandable view, yet not knowing does not mean there is a deity which place it there.  That line of thinking is called God of Gaps and is a rather well known logical fallacy.

As for believing every claim made by professionals...that's just as stupid as believing every claim made by religion.  Professionals write about how they reached their views so that we may read for ourselves (or even test on our own in some cases) to decide if that claim is valid or not.  It is often best to not accepts claims which cannot be verified by others; especially if that claim is important enough to affect world views.  We do ourselves a disservice when we do not care enough to investigate claims deeply enough that we not only know the meaning of the claim but can also explain how various people arrived at that conclusion.

Claiming that God provided you proof by turning green liquid in to red just for you is rather selfish when you think about all those who truly do need a miracle yet have their prayers go unanswered....all of us here are more fortunate than most people in the world since we have both the free time and means to simply access a computer and get on the internet.  If your god does exist and is going to be selective about what prayers it does answer...you'd think it would be more concerned about things such as curing babies with AIDS or cancer than turning some guy's liquid a different color.  Worthwhile miracles not being claimed to occur as  often as silly miracles is not necessarily proof that a god doesn't exist...but it certainly would say a lot about God's character if it does exist.

[mattreed]

I'm just smarter than that.

JoeActor

Joe, I would like you to elaborate on your intelligence, if you are willing too.

Your reasoning would be of great value to me is you are as smart as you claim to be, my rebuttals to your ironclad convictions is nothing you can't handle Joe .

Right now, your response supports the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists, and I'm sure you don't want that, or perhaps you do.

[mattreed]

Zeus?
My wisdom and my abilities are not derived from myself, those whom I look up too who were great thinkers have the ability to think, by natural forces, I do not give myself the ability to do these things, I motivate myself to pursue a natural progression....[clipped] ....The greatest sacrifice, and the most heart breaking, is the loss of objectivity, logic, and reason. It's not being tortured for a day.

But my friend, objectivity remains in strength, logic and reason reign. Jesus never gave into a single negativity, yet he was tortured and killed. Symbolically, pure goodness was stamped out because of mankind's hang-ups, and Jesus allowed it and forgave those whom killed him, that's where the sacrifice comes into play, to be killed falsely and forgive those who kill you.

[joeactor]

Right now, your response supports the arrogant stereotype that people place on atheists, and I'm sure you don't want that, or perhaps you do.

If you look a bit more closely, you'll see that I am not an atheist.

It seems you came here with something to prove.   Perhaps you are just confused or curious.

What is the real reason you came to this forum?

Curious, but only slightly so,
JoeActor

[mattreed]

If you look a bit more closely, you'll see that I am not an atheist.

Forgive my assumption Joe, I am guilty of assumption that there are only Atheists on this forum.

I am here to challenge my faith, that if it is as strong as I believe it to be, that I can accept the opinion of the opposing belief and still have strong faith.

Again, I am sorry in my assumption, I am on a path of humility, and even that subtle action shows I still have a long way to travel.

[Will]

But my friend, objectivity remains in strength, logic and reason reign.

Yes, but I suspect that we're getting our definitions from different sources on each of those terms. Would it be reasonable for me to believe in Zeus?

Jesus never gave into a single negativity, yet he was tortured and killed.

This is also a matter of perspective. Perhaps you're familiar with Matt. 21:12-17:

Then Jesus went into the temple of God[a] and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”

...or John 2:15

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.

I've never claimed to be perfect, but I've never hurt or whipped anyone in my while life no matter what they were doing at my dad's place. From my perspective, this behavior is quite destructive and negative. And ask yourself this: what of Jesus' behavior could have been omitted?

Symbolically, pure goodness was stamped out because of mankind's hang-ups, and Jesus allowed it and forgave those whom killed him, that's where the sacrifice comes into play, to be killed falsely and forgive those who kill you.

Someone's going to kill me?

[joeactor]

I am here to challenge my faith, that if it is as strong as I believe it to be, that I can accept the opinion of the opposing belief and still have strong faith.

Ah, thank you for your candor.

If that is the reason you are here, bravo.

Knowledge and Belief are two separate realms.  Your initial post seems to confuse the two.

Knowledge can come from outside (books, teachers, etc), or from inside (thinking, deduction, etc).  It is based on fact, observation, logic, and deductive reasoning.

Belief (or faith) can only come from within.  Others can tell you about their beliefs, but your belief can only come from inside yourself.  It does not need to have any basis in fact or even be reasonable.

Therefore, to challange your faith, you are really challenging your self.

For a challange to have any meaning, there must be risk.  You must be willing to lose the very thing you are challenging.

Faith and sense of self can be very closely tied, so before we embark... Are you prepared to lose your faith?

If so, then the first question (which Will alluded to) is:

Why are you a Christian?
(as opposed to any other religion)

Sunday Smackdown,
JoeActor

[Evolved]

If I die and there is nothing, at least I died trying to gain eternal life and spread love and happiness along the way, what greater goal? And at least to have a positive goal in death, rather than nothing.

One of the things that atheists seem to have a good grasp on is the concept that we have only one go-around on this planet, and that there is no life after death.  I would urge you in your quest for understanding, Matt, to consider this as a possibility.  When theists state that there is no harm in believing in god and spending their lives in a quest for eternal life is a worthwhile endeavor, they fail to realize that there is so much else to learn in such little time.  Biology, chemistry, geology, and physics are but a few of the many areas of science that can help us gain a better understanding of the way that the universe works.  You will not learn more about the universe in a church (and I spent a good part of my life in church - time that I will regrettably never get back), and any scientific eye that you have will be colored by the idea that what you are observing was created.  This reminds me of an encounter with a coworker when I explained to her how a rainbow forms.  After a moment of looking puzzled, she said to me that she would rather just know that the rainbow was god's creation and be done with it.  I would rather know how it works.  I personally  find the lifelong journey of understanding the basic forces of the universe (with an objective eye unclouded by the confusion and dissonance that the belief in god creates) as a meaningful and satisfying pursuit.

[jcm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... traditions

Hey Matt did you check out any of these other religions before making your finally decision about god? Or did you make it easy on yourself and pick a religion that was closest to home?

Great questions Will and Joe!

[joeactor]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Hey Matt did you check out any of these other religions before making your finally decision about god? Or did you make it easy on yourself and pick a religion that was closest to home?

Great questions Will and Joe!

Thanks JCM (good wiki link too ;-)

Now we just gotta see if Matt comes back.

Maybe the test is done?
JoeActor

[mattreed]

Yes, but I suspect that we're getting our definitions from different sources on each of those terms. Would it be reasonable for me to believe in Zeus?

It would be completely reasonable for you to believe in Zeus if you had convictions to do so. My view on objectivity was to objectify things, I think the definition you meant was to view without bias, I admit I am biased, but not to the point where I would impose on anyone else's beliefs, I wanted to bring up some of my views and test their validity for I feel strongly in them. My logic is scientific and spiritual, it combines creationism and evolution. My reasoning is based in scientific fact, mainstream and insane science, and then elaborated on by life experiences I've had and internal emotional battles.

This is also a matter of perspective. Perhaps you're familiar with Matt. 21:12-17:

Then Jesus went into the temple of God[a] and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”

...or John 2:15

And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables.

I've never claimed to be perfect, but I've never hurt or whipped anyone in my while life no matter what they were doing at my dad's place. From my perspective, this behavior is quite destructive and negative. And ask yourself this: what of Jesus' behavior could have been omitted?

I feel Jesus did the right thing, being angry is not a sin, what the people were doing in the holy place was a sin, he didn't physically hurt anyone, he strongly disagreed with them and showed it, personally I see it justifiable. Even with things omitted, I believe Jesus Christ was an amazing man, even if he never existed which many believe, I feel his overall example is to show people how to forgive those who act against you, because hatred breeds hatred, but love defeats hatred. I don't think Jesus had any other choice but to make a strong impression on people he viewed were dishonoring his father, if he just stood around and preached to them they wouldn't move.

Symbolically, pure goodness was stamped out because of mankind's hang-ups, and Jesus allowed it and forgave those whom killed him, that's where the sacrifice comes into play, to be killed falsely and forgive those who kill you.

Someone's going to kill me?[/quote]
I just mean that figuratively, it came out strange. Mostly I feel that people who act against you should be loved rather than revenged, even in the most difficult situations. I still get angry and act on my anger when people push me far enough, mostly its so that people don't regard me as a pushover because I'm very willing to love them, but I feel you need to let people know when they've wronged you before you forgive them.