Abortion Opinions

[En_Route]

But, yeah, I'm not using the term "murder" in its strictest term. I'm not considering the "against the law" aspect. Just in the sense that a person is being put to death by the premeditated and wilful act of another person.

I think when murder is used outside the legal sphere it is a loaded term, generally signifying disapproval at least and almost invariably some kind of normative judgement. I think by defining it as simply a premeditated act of killing you are using it in a rather specialised and unusual sense. If for example I turned up at your front door and lunged at you with a knife and you fortuitously were just polishing your shotgun and fired it at me in order to avoid certain death, that would be premeditated killing and therefore murder on your part, per your definition  -or so it seems to me.

[Ali]

Agree that the word "murder" is a loaded term when dealing with abortion.

[Asmodean]

If for example I turned up at your front door and lunged at you with a knife and you fortuitously were just polishing your shotgun and fired it at me in order to avoid certain death, that would be premeditated killing and therefore murder on your part, per your definition  -or so it seems to me.

Wouldn't it though?

Not contesting the point in general, just the example, as I define murder as an unlawful act of ending another's life.

[En_Route]

If for example I turned up at your front door and lunged at you with a knife and you fortuitously were just polishing your shotgun and fired it at me in order to avoid certain death, that would be premeditated killing and therefore murder on your part, per your definition  -or so it seems to me.

Wouldn't it though?

Not contesting the point in general, just the example, as I define murder as an unlawful act of ending another's life.

It's interesting you say that. It supports my original point that murder is primarily a legal concept. In fact, in the UK, Stevil would not be guilty of murder in these circumstances.

[Asmodean]

As stated, not contesting the point - just the example given. What classifies as murder is not universally defined, after all.

[Ali]

As stated, not contesting the point - just the example given. What classifies as murder is not universally defined, after all.

Since it's technically a legal term, if we want to split hairs I think we would rely on the legal definition if we needed to really pin it down.  Of course, the legal definition may vary from country to country...Still, in no country where abortion is legal would it be defined as murder.

[Asmodean]

Indeed. Personally, I do not know of any country that defines abortion as murder... Well, maybe Vatican, but they do not fall under the "I know of" cathegory - my knowledge of that place is limited to it being a rather pathetic gathering of old men in robes and swiss guards with pikes... PIKES! In like... 2000-and-whatever-the-year-happens-to-be.

[Stevil]

I think when murder is used outside the legal sphere it is a loaded term, generally signifying disapproval at least and almost invariably some kind of normative judgement. I think by defining it as simply a premeditated act of killing you are using it in a rather specialised and unusual sense. If for example I turned up at your front door and lunged at you with a knife and you fortuitously were just polishing your shotgun and fired it at me in order to avoid certain death, that would be premeditated killing and therefore murder on your part, per your definition  -or so it seems to me.

That would not be intentional or premeditated.
Your goal would be to defend yourself, and it is a spur of the moment thing.

With abortion, you are intentionally killing the zygote/fetus because you don't want it to be alive. It is not spur of the moment, and most of the time it is not life threatening, thus not self defense.
It is almost exactly the same as murder, the only difference is that the government hasn't made it against the law.
Stating that it is not murder, would be like saying that if the government wants to eradicate all murder, all that have to do is make killing people legal.

I can understand that the term murder can sit uncomfortably with many people, because they couple it with their belief in morality or with a "sin". I have no such beliefs, I don't have to dance away from the word.
If you want to cling to the legal definition and thus invalidate the word then simply replace it with "willful, intentional and premeditated killing of another person"

[DeterminedJuliet]

Stating that it is not murder, would be like saying that if the government wants to eradicate all murder, all that have to do is make killing people legal.

That pretty much is what I would say. Though, we'd still have a "problem" with adults running wild killing other adults, so we'd have to create a new legal definition which would mean pretty much the same thing. It's still tied up in your definition of personhood. Personally, I think it's a stretch to equate the destruction of a fetus with the destruction of a functioning human who has thoughts/feelings/memories/loved ones, etc.

[En_Route]

I think when murder is used outside the legal sphere it is a loaded term, generally signifying disapproval at least and almost invariably some kind of normative judgement. I think by defining it as simply a premeditated act of killing you are using it in a rather specialised and unusual sense. If for example I turned up at your front door and lunged at you with a knife and you fortuitously were just polishing your shotgun and fired it at me in order to avoid certain death, that would be premeditated killing and therefore murder on your part, per your definition  -or so it seems to me.

That would not be intentional or premeditated.
Your goal would be to defend yourself, and it is a spur of the moment thing.

With abortion, you are intentionally killing the zygote/fetus because you don't want it to be alive. It is not spur of the moment, and most of the time it is not life threatening, thus not self defense.
It is almost exactly the same as murder, the only difference is that the government hasn't made it against the law.
Stating that it is not murder, would be like saying that if the government wants to eradicate all murder, all that have to do is make killing people legal.

I can understand that the term murder can sit uncomfortably with many people, because they couple it with their belief in morality or with a "sin". I have no such beliefs, I don't have to dance away from the word.
If you want to cling to the legal definition and thus invalidate the word then simply replace it with "willful, intentional and premeditated killing of another person"

The dictionary definition of murder is the unlawful and ptemeditated killing of another human being. I'm not sure that premeditated  here really means much more  than intentional. If I decide as I walk  down the street that I will shoot you for the hell of it, that is murder in law, even though it is spur of the moment. If I lunge at you with my knife, you might well decide that the only safe course of action is to kill me. What gets you off the hook is not that you didn't  intend to kill me but that the killing was committed in self- defence. That exception is itself a legalism.
Murder itself is a socially constructed concept and the legal definition will vary from society to society and from time to time. In some societies crimes of passion do not constitute murder, in others they do.
If you talk about murder outside the prevailing legal definition, you are engaging in a rhetorical device. Abortion involves killing a foetus. If you call that murder then you are implicitly condemning it and  also necessarily saying that a foetus is either a human being or is equivalent to one. To pretend that labelling abortion as murder but simultaneously saying you are not passing any moral judgement doesn't really stack up in normal linguistic usage; as I've said, it also relies on the unarticulated  and unexplained assumption that the foetus= human being.

[Stevil]

Abortion involves killing a foetus. If you call that murder then you are implicitly condemning it and necessarily saying that a foetus is either a human being or is equivalent to one.

I was trying to use a simple to understand word, using a bit of leeway with regards to the law. It seems no-one will let me do this, thus where I have used the term "murder" please instead replace it with "willful, intentional and premeditated killing of another person". Hopefully we can move on with the intent of the phrase rather than to argue about the legal definition of the word.

To pretend that labelling abortion as murder but simultaneously saying you are not passing any moral judgement doesn't really stack up in normal linguistic usage; as I've said, it also relies on the unarticulated  and unexplained assumption that the foetus= human being.

I consider a fetus to be a human being. I don't consider law to equate to morality. I don't consider murder to be immoral or wrong.

[En_Route]

Abortion involves killing a foetus. If you call that murder then you are implicitly condemning it and necessarily saying that a foetus is either a human being or is equivalent to one.

I was trying to use a simple to understand word, using a bit of leeway with regards to the law. It seems no-one will let me do this, thus where I have used the term "murder" please instead replace it with "willful, intentional and premeditated killing of another person". Hopefully we can move on with the intent of the phrase rather than to argue about the legal definition of the word.

To pretend that labelling abortion as murder but simultaneously saying you are not passing any moral judgement doesn't really stack up in normal linguistic usage; as I've said, it also relies on the unarticulated  and unexplained assumption that the foetus= human being.

I consider a fetus to be a human being. I don't consider law to equate to morality. I don't consider murder to be immoral or wrong.

You are entitled to think a foetus is a human being. Just don't expect it to pay taxes. I don't think law equates to morality but I do think the primary sense of murder is a legal one. In the non- legal sense it refers to killing of which the speaker does not approve. So some people say war is murder and those who do so are  never pro- war. If you want to use murder in a sense that implies no  opprobium or any culpability on the part of the person committing it , I suggest that your usage is pretty well unique to you.

[Stevil]

If you want to use murder in a sense that implies no  opprobium or any culpability on the part of the person committing it , I suggest that your usage is pretty well unique to you.

The person (fetus) dies as a direst result of the decision and action of the person having the abortion.
I just don't think the cosmos cares, neither does the law and for the most part neither does society.
I am not interested in making a law to save these peoples lives

[Sweetdeath]

Stevil, why do you consider a fetus a human? That makes no sense to me.

[Stevil]

Stevil, why do you consider a fetus a human? That makes no sense to me.

You don't consider it to be a human being????

I guess it is in the eye of the beholder.
Here is an interesting vid