Old Testament Pfft, Jesus is the MAN!

[Crow]

Mmm...yes, yes you could...if Jesus is just a human.

You won't know until your dead if that's the case or not so why bother saying that he was anything more? We don't know if the person really existed and the closest we have got from evidence is a "probably yes" to a "probably not", no one really knows the truth on this subject, so why second guess when you are probably like me and are far from qualified and have never studied the original source materials to make an educated decision. You think its true therefore its true to you, leave it at that.

[Stevil]

When the God killed everyone in the great flood, that IMHO is worse than what Hitler ever did.
God killed almost everyone, all races, all cultures, all animals, all plants.

If one believes in a global flood...which I think more Christaians reject rather than support (I would hope at least).  But first and foremost is that if God is the Creator, then what right do you (or me) have to dictate how the Creator deals with that which He created?  So we see here that when one sets out to define and/or interpret this God (the Abrahamic God), one needs to make the argument in light of the whole and not just part.  The "whole" would include taking into account that this God made everything....and all that follows.

When god killed the Egyptian first born males just to prove that He exists, well how is that not as horrid as Saddam killing the Kurds or Hitler killing Jews?

Again...if he is God and therefore Creator of the cosmos, then there is right and wrong that is dictated by Him.  To go against that which sustains life is to die.  It's logical, not emotional.  If God acted on emotion, He would turn every heart towards Him and no one would ever die.  But that's apparently impossible as God is all-loving AND all-Justice in one.  Another point that would need to be taken into account on interpreting this God.

Thanks for being open and honest in your response.

[Gawen]

BBut first and foremost is that if God is the Creator, then what right do you (or me) have to dictate how the Creator deals with that which He created?

1) IF there was a creator
2) IF your God is the Creator
3) IF that creator deals with its creations

a) A believer has no right to dictate to his/her creator any more than a marionette has the right to dictate to its creator. If one believes in the Biblical God, then one must know there is no free will (only the illusion of free will), not unlike a marionette. There is enough Biblical support to know that nothing comes or happens except by the Biblical God. "In the beginning, there was the Word..." for example. Even the Jesus character was predestined to live and die in the story, all towards God's great plan...which no believer has the right to question...or even knows.

So one has the God of the Hebrew Bible, the Usurper Saul/Paul and the late, extremely questionable writings of the Gospels all packed into an ambiguously, confusingly and contradictorily written tome full of superstition and selected by those who had the power, wanted power, had an axe to grind and then made Holy upon pain of death or excommunication. THIS is what believers put their faith into.

So badly written by men with this God guiding their pen is this tome. Believers have no choice but to pick and choose. Never mind the lasting forever covenants of this God with His chosen people. Never mind Jesus was the MAN and what he tells you to do to achieve salvation. Never mind what the misogynist, introverted, and quite likely psycho Paul would have you do. Never mind that one cherry picks. Just remember that it's all predestined, right or wrong in the fact that no believer knows this god's plan and how he/she fits within it. All for the glory in Him and the promise that you won't be spending an eternity of torture away from His Most High Benevolence.

How truly sad it all is...

[Sweetdeath]

God is your imaginary friend. Not mine.

We live in a world where we are still learning, every single day. Humans live in societies. Your dellusions shouldnt be affecting the laws in human society; especially when you have no ability to prove a god(s) exist. This is how life becomes dangerous.
The whole "believe or die" attitude.

[Sandra Craft]

BBut first and foremost is that if God is the Creator, then what right do you (or me) have to dictate how the Creator deals with that which He created?

1) IF there was a creator
2) IF your God is the Creator
3) IF that creator deals with its creations

a) A believer has no right to dictate to his/her creator any more than a marionette has the right to dictate to its creator.

Even given all those IFs, I can't agree that it would or should be so that the creation cannot doubt, question or fault its creator.  Particularly when the creation is another sentient being, in which case its more like a parent and child than just a thing and a tinkerer. 

Most people I know think it would be morally lax not to question the way some parents treat their children, regardless of the rules those parents have set up in their own households about right and wrong, and they would certainly support the child's questioning and rebellion. 

Assuming all the IFs are true, questioning or rebelling against a creator god is just taking that one step up. 

[Stevil]

Even given all those IFs, I can't agree that it would or should be so that the creation cannot doubt, question or fault its creator.  Particularly when the creation is another sentient being, in which case its more like a parent and child than just a thing and a tinkerer. 

Most people I know think it would be morally lax not to question the way some parents treat their children, regardless of the rules those parents have set up in their own households about right and wrong, and they would certainly support the child's questioning and rebellion. 

Assuming all the IFs are true, questioning or rebelling against a creator god is just taking that one step up. 

Yup, the wife and I created two beautiful little girls.

I certainly don't think that gives me the right to harm them in any way. My government agrees, and would lock me up and take them away from me if I were to do such a thing. Creation does not denote ownership.

As a creator/parent I have certain responsibilities to take care of, and to provide the necessities for my children. I don't care if they believe in me or not, if they love me or hate me, it makes no difference, I have these responsibilities, these obligations and I have no choice but to take care of my children.

[Stevil]

If one believes in a global flood...which I think more Christaians reject rather than support (I would hope at least). 

Yet another story (Genesis as well) that people believed was literal, up until the point that science proved it was impossible, then all of a sudden it becomes figurative or something that requires much interpretation.
So for over 1,000 years people had no way of knowing that it wasn't literal, how many generation of people is that, whom were deceived by god's inspired word in the bible?
God, the great deceiver, or is that Satan's title?  Hmmmm are we sure the bible is god's inspired word and not Satan's? How can we know for sure?

Again...if he is God and therefore Creator of the cosmos, then there is right and wrong that is dictated by Him. 

If right and wrong is dictated by god, then why do his followers interpret away things that he clearly has stated is wrong?
Those that disobey the Sabbath, the bible tells us that god thinks they should be put to death.
Non virgin women whom marry, "put to death" the god says.

And yet, Christians read this and then decide, Hmmm, a perfect and loving god can't possibly mean what he says here. Maybe death means something else, surely it must. May he means that we are allowed to work on the sabbath, maybe he means that non virgin women are allowed to get married. Yes, that's what he meant. Praise the lord and his infinite wisdom!

[En_Route]

If one believes in a global flood...which I think more Christaians reject rather than support (I would hope at least). 

Yet another story (Genesis as well) that people believed was literal, up until the point that science proved it was impossible, then all of a sudden it becomes figurative or something that requires much interpretation.
So for over 1,000 years people had no way of knowing that it wasn't literal, how many generation of people is that, whom were deceived by god's inspired word in the bible?
God, the great deceiver, or is that Satan's title?  Hmmmm are we sure the bible is god's inspired word and not Satan's? How can we know for sure?

Again...if he is God and therefore Creator of the cosmos, then there is right and wrong that is dictated by Him. 

If right and wrong is dictated by god, then why do his followers interpret away things that he clearly has stated is wrong?
Those that disobey the Sabbath, the bible tells us that god thinks they should be put to death.
Non virgin women whom marry, "put to death" the god says.

And yet, Christians read this and then decide, Hmmm, a perfect and loving god can't possibly mean what he says here. Maybe death means something else, surely it must. May he means that we are allowed to work on the sabbath, maybe he means that non virgin women are allowed to get married. Yes, that's what he meant. Praise the lord and his infinite wisdom!

As I understand it, the early church accepted that Genesis was allegorical. The liitearlist perspective seems to be a later development. The incompatible theologies in the new testament and its ignominouus history of reverse engineering, redaction, mistranscription, censorship and selective editing in my view provide the grounds for a far more destructive critique of Christian doctrine.

[En_Route]

BBut first and foremost is that if God is the Creator, then what right do you (or me) have to dictate how the Creator deals with that which He created?

1) IF there was a creator
2) IF your God is the Creator
3) IF that creator deals with its creations

a) A believer has no right to dictate to his/her creator any more than a marionette has the right to dictate to its creator. If one believes in the Biblical God, then one must know there is no free will (only the illusion of free will), not unlike a marionette. There is enough Biblical support to know that nothing comes or happens except by the Biblical God. "In the beginning, there was the Word..." for example. Even the Jesus character was predestined to live and die in the story, all towards God's great plan...which no believer has the right to question...or even knows.

So one has the God of the Hebrew Bible, the Usurper Saul/Paul and the late, extremely questionable writings of the Gospels all packed into an ambiguously, confusingly and contradictorily written tome full of superstition and selected by those who had the power, wanted power, had an axe to grind and then made Holy upon pain of death or excommunication. THIS is what believers put their faith into.

So badly written by men with this God guiding their pen is this tome. Believers have no choice but to pick and choose. Never mind the lasting forever covenants of this God with His chosen people. Never mind Jesus was the MAN and what he tells you to do to achieve salvation. Never mind what the misogynist, introverted, and quite likely psycho Paul would have you do. Never mind that one cherry picks. Just remember that it's all predestined, right or wrong in the fact that no believer knows this god's plan and how he/she fits within it. All for the glory in Him and the promise that you won't be spending an eternity of torture away from His Most High Benevolence.

How truly sad it all is...

It is Christianity which posits the notion of free will. In fact free will is a logical impossibility and to believe in it is as much an act of faith as theism.

[Stevil]

It is Christianity which posits the notion of free will. In fact free will is a logical impossibility and to believe in it is as much an act of faith as theism.

Yes, we think we are in control, we think we can drive the direction of our thoughts and our actions, but really all movements, chemical reactions, electrical impulses, heat exchanges etc, they are all driven by the unchangeable forces of physical existence (gravity, electromagnetic, nuclear) maybe some others we haven't discovered yet. But with all known physical states and forces then your thoughts and actions are predictable. Except for the uncertainty principle, probability of atomic decay, quantum fluctuations and others we haven't discovered yet, but there certainly is no non physical "magical/supernatural" element to your decision making process. Well not one that we can ever test for and hence know.
Free will - Pfffftt.

[AnimatedDirt]

Yet another story (Genesis as well) that people believed was literal, up until the point that science proved it was impossible, then all of a sudden it becomes figurative or something that requires much interpretation.
So for over 1,000 years people had no way of knowing that it wasn't literal, how many generation of people is that, whom were deceived by god's inspired word in the bible?
God, the great deceiver, or is that Satan's title?  Hmmmm are we sure the bible is god's inspired word and not Satan's? How can we know for sure?

Missing the forest for the trees.  Inspired word of God...it still accomplishes that God is Creator.  Whether creation took 7 literal days or 7 million years does not remove the point of God.  The bigger picture and the point of it all is simply, "In the beginning God..."  So is there "deception" in humans taking this to mean 7 literal days or 7 million years?  It's a secondary (or even less) pillar of belief.  Primary is that God is.

If right and wrong is dictated by god, then why do his followers interpret away things that he clearly has stated is wrong?
Those that disobey the Sabbath, the bible tells us that god thinks they should be put to death.
Non virgin women whom marry, "put to death" the god says.

And yet, Christians read this and then decide, Hmmm, a perfect and loving god can't possibly mean what he says here. Maybe death means something else, surely it must. May he means that we are allowed to work on the sabbath, maybe he means that non virgin women are allowed to get married. Yes, that's what he meant. Praise the lord and his infinite wisdom!

Ultimately every person that disobeys God's commands will die.  Again, if God is God, and therefore sovereign, what difference is there if the penalty is paid for immediate or later?  The OT dealing with God's Law was a teaching era...as with a parent to child.  The punishments were handed down immediately, whereas in the NT, we move from parent/child to parent raises child and the parent no longer hands down immediate punishment.

Again one would need to understand the Bible to more correctly interpret it as opposed to cherry-picking a sentence here and there and making false conslusions when many other aspects/situations speak to a more precise and harmonious interpretation.

The OT Law was written in stone...a metaphor for it's longevity...that being God's Law, it will be forever.  But in the NT the Law is not written in stone, but in our hearts...in that it is not followed or we will die (immediate punishment) , but because we love God and in loving someone we do that which pleases our loved ones.  It is not followed out of obligation, that we would gain anything from it as payment, but of our own free will...because we want to.  The OT simply taught the ways of God...that to disobey God is to die.  They experienced God's judgment more immediate.  Us, today, we don't experience God's judgment as they did, but will face it at some point.

About the Sabbath...heh...you're speaking with an Adventist that upholds ALL the 10 as binding on a believer, not as a means to salvation, but because to love god is to follow that which defines good from bad.

There is so much theology in this that people write books on and I could not here....nor should I.

[Stevil]

About the Sabbath...heh...you're speaking with an Adventist that upholds ALL the 10 as binding on a believer, not as a means to salvation, but because to love god is to follow that which defines good from bad.

Oh, I didn't know that.
So an SDA would sooner not work on the sabbath than perform their role as a doctor, paramedic, fire fighter and save a life.

[AnimatedDirt]

About the Sabbath...heh...you're speaking with an Adventist that upholds ALL the 10 as binding on a believer, not as a means to salvation, but because to love god is to follow that which defines good from bad.

Oh, I didn't know that.
So an SDA would sooner not work on the sabbath than perform their role as a doctor, paramedic, fire fighter and save a life.

Lots of SDA's are doctors, paramedics, fire fighters and do save lives on the Sabbath...afterall, it is what Christ lived and it is good to do good on the Sabbath.

[chic]

Here are my thoughts.  This is a group of happy "atheists"!  Right?  The concept of a god is alien to us.  So the words ascribed to Jesus are the words of a fallible human being written down and translated by fallible human beings that may or may not be useful today.  We read the ideas of many thinkers from over the centuries and find many of these ideas useless today.  We expect errors from our ancestors as well as from our contemporaries.  Why would we expect anything more from Jesus unless we fall into the trap of granting him theistic license?

The human animal has been struggling away from authority, superstition, etc, toward scientific methods and rational thought over many centuries with very little progress.  But arguing about whether the ideas of Jesus are the words of authority for today without considering any modifying historical events is not helping modern humanity.  Some of the ideas proposed in the N.T. may have ethical value and not economic application for our century.  They may be worth debating.

Now, I await my critics.

[AnimatedDirt]

Here are my thoughts.  This is a group of happy "atheists"!  Right?  The concept of a god is alien to us.  So the words ascribed to Jesus are the words of a fallible human being written down and translated by fallible human beings that may or may not be useful today.  We read the ideas of many thinkers from over the centuries and find many of these ideas useless today.  We expect errors from our ancestors as well as from our contemporaries.  Why would we expect anything more from Jesus unless we fall into the trap of granting him theistic license?

The human animal has been struggling away from authority, superstition, etc, toward scientific methods and rational thought over many centuries with very little progress.  But arguing about whether the ideas of Jesus are the words of authority for today without considering any modifying historical events is not helping modern humanity.  Some of the ideas proposed in the N.T. may have ethical value and not economic application for our century.  They may be worth debating.

Now, I await my critics.

Very true, however not many (if any) make the claims Jesus did, hence why his words have survived.  Because of this reason, we "should" take them as a whole and not in part as the whole speaks volumes to and of the parts.

That's all I'm asking/suggesting of those that are critical of these words.

BTW...Hi chic.  Welcome to HAF.