Guns anyone?

[Old Seer]

or, would you steal food from a weaker person?

In the realm of nature there's no such thing as stealing. Stealing  is a concept of civilization, without civilization there is no man made law. The fox takes a piece from the bears kill. The fox has the right to eat. The bear nor the fox are aware of any laws, they only exist within the laws of nature which is natural law. There is no natural law that denotes stealing. It's the Bears right to defend it's kill, and if not successful, oh well, that's life and the bear has to accept it, and it does.  Stealing is a punishable act only in civil law and can only be applicable to a sapient being that can comprehend punishment via reason. Being the Fox and the Bear exist within natural law, there is no one to create law for either.

[Old Seer]

we are what we are.

we behave exactly as other organisms do, especially primates. our difference is that we are intelligent enough to make up philosophy, and so we ascribe complicated and fanciful motivations to whatwe do.

turn the sound off and watch.

We had a saying originally- intelligence is people's enemy, since then we've changed it. What intelligence is applied to is the enemy.

[billy rubin]

seer, youre uzing rightz in terms of natural law, i believe

natural law applies to organizms living in their natural state

the natural state of humanz is to live in societies

in societiez humans grant each other rights, some of which supercede others.

the freedom from stealing is one such right, by implication there iz no right to steal, under normal circumstancez.

are human societies consiztent with the natural perspective?

[Drich]

The manifest relish with which many preppers anticipate their "need" for a firearm is an indication of motivations other than mere survival.

what happens to you and or your family if you happen to live in a no go zone?

Define "no go zone." If society breaks down, I expect I'll have plenty to worry about regardless of what guns I might have on hand.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/story-series/death-by-instagram/2018/04/27/detroit-gang-wars-residents-want-better-communitiy/556655002/
https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Crimes-Map/dfnk-7re6
or red zones places where police officers are openly targeted on site and shot at. or extremely unsafe neighborhoods. lots of gang activity in normal times.

You're doing journeyman work reinforcing stereotypes here, Drich. Boring.

actually that work is only happening in your mind, as i have not advocated the ownership of guns. I am just asking the question does the light of recent event coupled with another catastrophe make you reconsider.

Your disingenuous claim to be "just asking" questions is transparent and laughable.
[/quote] don't be obtuse.
have i propagated anything? Have i extolled the need for guns? have i challenged any of your answers?

I just asked a question to see what type of people are here. We are two pages in at this point so if i had an agenda it would be known by now. Calm down dial the hate back a few notches and just read and respond to what is on page. no need to try and jump a head especially if there isnt anything to jump to.

I'm asking because my brother in law is a douche bag much like most of you who tends to lean towards the left. thought my dad and i were milisha/crazy people. someone broke into his shop, they stole 75K in tools and equipment, now the virus has got some people going into frenzy mode in the down town area he works in.

His value system much like most of yours are based on the idea of a utopian society. I find those who live in a less culturally diverse countries (all/most white) can hold out or play pretend society will never fail. but when reminded his value system is no longer at the top of the societal food chain, he like every other red blooded american (douchebaggery not withstanding) is not looking to be subjected by, or taken advantage of by people foreign or domestic who will force their will onto him.

I guess those such as yourself who live in a less culturally diverse part of the world can pretty much know that everyone who looks like you will think like you and there is no need to defend yourself because you all have agreed not to hurt one another.

[Recusant]

Define "no go zone." If society breaks down, I expect I'll have plenty to worry about regardless of what guns I might have on hand.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/story-series/death-by-instagram/2018/04/27/detroit-gang-wars-residents-want-better-communitiy/556655002/

https://data.cityofchicago.org/Public-Safety/Crimes-Map/dfnk-7re6
or red zones places where police officers are openly targeted on site and shot at. or extremely unsafe neighborhoods. lots of gang activity in normal times.

How would possessing a gun help me or my family be safer if I were living in "'The Red Zone' — gang turf for the Seven Mile Bloods", or in any other neighborhood plagued by violence?

You're doing journeyman work reinforcing stereotypes here, Drich. Boring.

actually that work is only happening in your mind, as i have not advocated the ownership of guns. I am just asking the question does the light of recent event coupled with another catastrophe make you reconsider.

Your disingenuous claim to be "just asking" questions is transparent and laughable.

don't be obtuse.
have i propagated anything? Have i extolled the need for guns? have i challenged any of your answers?

I just asked a question to see what type of people are here. We are two pages in at this point so if i had an agenda it would be known by now. Calm down dial the hate back a few notches and just read and respond to what is on page. no need to try and jump a head especially if there isnt anything to jump to.

I'm asking because my brother in law is a douche bag much like most of you who tends to lean towards the left. thought my dad and i were milisha/crazy people. someone broke into his shop, they stole 75K in tools and equipment, now the virus has got some people going into frenzy mode in the down town area he works in.

His value system much like most of yours are based on the idea of a utopian society. I find those who live in a less culturally diverse countries (all/most white) can hold out or play pretend society will never fail. but when reminded his value system is no longer at the top of the societal food chain, he like every other red blooded american (douchebaggery not withstanding) is not looking to be subjected by, or taken advantage of by people foreign or domestic who will force their will onto him.

I guess those such as yourself who live in a less culturally diverse part of the world can pretty much know that everyone who looks like you will think like you and there is no need to defend yourself because you all have agreed not to hurt one another.

You don't know anything about where I live, or where I've lived in the past. You need to read the rules of this site: Calling the general membership (except for a few it seems you think you might approve of) is not on. This is a friendly reminder. You've done OK up to now keeping within the rules, but I can tell you that you're not doing yourself any favors by relying on insults, and there won't be any more friendly reminders.

[Drich]

or, would you steal food from a weaker person?

In the realm of nature there's no such thing as stealing. Stealing  is a concept of civilization, without civilization there is no man made law. The fox takes a piece from the bears kill. The fox has the right to eat. The bear nor the fox are aware of any laws, they only exist within the laws of nature which is natural law. There is no natural law that denotes stealing. It's the Bears right to defend it's kill, and if not successful, oh well, that's life and the bear has to accept it, and it does.  Stealing is a punishable act only in civil law and can only be applicable to a sapient being that can comprehend punishment via reason. Being the Fox and the Bear exist within natural law, there is no one to create law for either.

and this is why i have my guns.. to not have to suffer fools who think, PUT INTO PRACTICE and teach people who think stealing is not a thing and it is not wrong.  How wrong it actually is. That they are not a fox or bear, nor am i. Not only that but in fact it may cost one their life (how ever they trans species identify) if you steal from me on my property or from it. so as to be an example to anyone else you/they may have infected with the idea there is no such thing as stealing.


Now.. compartmentalize all of that above.

lets say we are neighbors and the above is what you think i think, and you know i have guns.

You are your family are starving. You look over my house and i have 30 chickens. you want one to eat and ask. i say no because they produce more food laying 20-30 eggs aday. So bottom line here I have the guns, i have the food/chickens, my pov on stealing in enforced because my might/guns makes right.

Now tell me if you were the one who had a gun, and your strong philosophy on stealing entitled you to one of my chickens, you can't tell me you would sit and starve wanting one of my chickens. If your world view entitled you to my chicken and you have the might to force your version of right and wrong, how long would you wait before you got your chickens? What if we started eating them one every day because reasons and we still would not give you one?

[xSilverPhinx]

Yeah...this whole 'natural rights' idea reminds me of those people on the fringe saying even the pathogens have a right to exist because they do in fact exist. 

It makes no sense to me. Even the thought of human beings having an objective, natural right to life doesn't really make sense. In fact, I think human rights are just one of those things people in more civilised societies take for granted.

OK, what about this? Would you run away from a lion attacking you.

I would not. Two reasons:

a) Running from a cat triggers their high prey drive and they will run after you;

b) Between the lion and me, the lion is obviously faster.

But I get what you're asking. In order to try and defend myself and survive, I would try and throw things at it instead, I figure that would be my best chance. Of course I will try to survive an attack.

You prefer to exercise your right to remain  alive. The Lion is also exercising it's right to live. To the Lion, you're a meal. What this is---two beings with the same rights. Without the rights neither can remain alive. Nature established (if that wording be correct) both on an even Steven basis. While you have the same rights there is not equal physical ability. Now what.

That's the thing, I don't think there is a 'right' to life. I exist, I am, but whatever 'right' I have to continue living is more legal than natural. Do I infringe upon the right of the ants who I accidentally step on while I walk?

Pro-lifers like to say that the undeveloped fetus has a right to life, even if it doesn't even remotely resemble a human yet. Does it? 

[xSilverPhinx]

don't be obtuse.
have i propagated anything? Have i extolled the need for guns? have i challenged any of your answers?

I just asked a question to see what type of people are here. We are two pages in at this point so if i had an agenda it would be known by now. Calm down dial the hate back a few notches and just read and respond to what is on page. no need to try and jump a head especially if there isnt anything to jump to.

I'm asking because my brother in law is a douche bag much like most of you who tends to lean towards the left. thought my dad and i were milisha/crazy people. someone broke into his shop, they stole 75K in tools and equipment, now the virus has got some people going into frenzy mode in the down town area he works in.

His value system much like most of yours are based on the idea of a utopian society. I find those who live in a less culturally diverse countries (all/most white) can hold out or play pretend society will never fail. but when reminded his value system is no longer at the top of the societal food chain, he like every other red blooded american (douchebaggery not withstanding) is not looking to be subjected by, or taken advantage of by people foreign or domestic who will force their will onto him.

I guess those such as yourself who live in a less culturally diverse part of the world can pretty much know that everyone who looks like you will think like you and there is no need to defend yourself because you all have agreed not to hurt one another.

Go ahead and call us communists or whatever other inane insult people like you like to throw around. 

[Recusant]

Go ahead and call us communists or whatever other inane insult people like you like to throw around. 

  Yes, perhaps that would be best for all concerned. 

[Drich]

How would possessing a gun help me or my family be safer if I were living in "'The Red Zone' — gang turf for the Seven Mile Bloods", or in any other neighborhood plagued by violence?

when city wide looting and the burning of homes and business start, you take out your ar's your hunting rfles hi-cap handguns and you defend yourself. and you shoot and kill anyone trying to start an occupied apartment building on fire, or burn down a strip mall or bust into a neighbors cell phone story or beauty parlor.. This very thing happened to a predominantly korean neighborhood in a red zone as most of the koreans owned stores that serviced the black community and during oj's or the trial of rodney kings cops trial was over. after that LA burned for days. days of no police or army, for days as the cops refused to go there. where this korean community was held not burned or looted because the men there bann together and fought off the 'zombies.'
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/28/us/la-riots-korean-americans/index.html

story buried because black people where oppressive majority oppressing and signaling out a specific minority.

You're doing journeyman work reinforcing stereotypes here, Drich. Boring.

what's boring is how you dismiss topic either you can not discuss or are ill equipped to discuss. If you want people to play nice with you don't pretend you are not passively aggressively antagonizing them. you are not fooling anyone here. either address the question or statement or don't. either way don't pretend you are above a discussion and then threaten someone's membership when they call you out for playing games.

You don't know anything about where I live, or where I've lived in the past. You need to read the rules of this site: Calling the general membership (except for a few it seems you think you might approve of) is not on. This is a friendly reminder. You've done OK up to now keeping within the rules, but I can tell you that you're not doing yourself any favors by relying on insults, and there won't be any more friendly reminders.

this is exactly what i meant. I even called this behavior in the last paragraph!

I just re read the rules for the 7th time and no where in it is there a section or subsection referred  to as "Calling the general membership."

If you are going to cite the rule please give me clear indication of the written rule and a summary of how i broken.

I appreciate a warning verses an infraction, but in this case i do not see any rules broken. Other than the big unwritten rule of all atheist websites (Christian's must loose all arguments. )

[Drich]

Yeah...this whole 'natural rights' idea reminds me of those people on the fringe saying even the pathogens have a right to exist because they do in fact exist. 

It makes no sense to me. Even the thought of human beings having an objective, natural right to life doesn't really make sense. In fact, I think human rights are just one of those things people in more civilised societies take for granted.

OK, what about this? Would you run away from a lion attacking you.

I would not. Two reasons:

a) Running from a cat triggers their high prey drive and they will run after you;

b) Between the lion and me, the lion is obviously faster.

But I get what you're asking. In order to try and defend myself and survive, I would try and throw things at it instead, I figure that would be my best chance. Of course I will try to survive an attack.

You prefer to exercise your right to remain  alive. The Lion is also exercising it's right to live. To the Lion, you're a meal. What this is---two beings with the same rights. Without the rights neither can remain alive. Nature established (if that wording be correct) both on an even Steven basis. While you have the same rights there is not equal physical ability. Now what.

That's the thing, I don't think there is a 'right' to life. I exist, I am, but whatever 'right' I have to continue living is more legal than natural. Do I infringe upon the right of the ants who I accidentally step on while I walk?

Pro-lifers like to say that the undeveloped fetus has a right to life, even if it doesn't even remotely resemble a human yet. Does it?

actually you do but your rights supersede their because we/you have the greater might.

[Drich]

don't be obtuse.
have i propagated anything? Have i extolled the need for guns? have i challenged any of your answers?

I just asked a question to see what type of people are here. We are two pages in at this point so if i had an agenda it would be known by now. Calm down dial the hate back a few notches and just read and respond to what is on page. no need to try and jump a head especially if there isnt anything to jump to.

I'm asking because my brother in law is a douche bag much like most of you who tends to lean towards the left. thought my dad and i were milisha/crazy people. someone broke into his shop, they stole 75K in tools and equipment, now the virus has got some people going into frenzy mode in the down town area he works in.

His value system much like most of yours are based on the idea of a utopian society. I find those who live in a less culturally diverse countries (all/most white) can hold out or play pretend society will never fail. but when reminded his value system is no longer at the top of the societal food chain, he like every other red blooded american (douchebaggery not withstanding) is not looking to be subjected by, or taken advantage of by people foreign or domestic who will force their will onto him.

I guess those such as yourself who live in a less culturally diverse part of the world can pretty much know that everyone who looks like you will think like you and there is no need to defend yourself because you all have agreed not to hurt one another.

Go ahead and call us communists or whatever other inane insult people like you like to throw around.

A rose by any other name would still the same.

[Drich]

Go ahead and call us communists or whatever other inane insult people like you like to throw around. 

  Yes, perhaps that would be best for all concerned. 

what would help would be an exact rule number in question or a written interpretation of said rule if it is not apparent.

[xSilverPhinx]

don't be obtuse.
have i propagated anything? Have i extolled the need for guns? have i challenged any of your answers?

I just asked a question to see what type of people are here. We are two pages in at this point so if i had an agenda it would be known by now. Calm down dial the hate back a few notches and just read and respond to what is on page. no need to try and jump a head especially if there isnt anything to jump to.

I'm asking because my brother in law is a douche bag much like most of you who tends to lean towards the left. thought my dad and i were milisha/crazy people. someone broke into his shop, they stole 75K in tools and equipment, now the virus has got some people going into frenzy mode in the down town area he works in.

His value system much like most of yours are based on the idea of a utopian society. I find those who live in a less culturally diverse countries (all/most white) can hold out or play pretend society will never fail. but when reminded his value system is no longer at the top of the societal food chain, he like every other red blooded american (douchebaggery not withstanding) is not looking to be subjected by, or taken advantage of by people foreign or domestic who will force their will onto him.

I guess those such as yourself who live in a less culturally diverse part of the world can pretty much know that everyone who looks like you will think like you and there is no need to defend yourself because you all have agreed not to hurt one another.

Go ahead and call us communists or whatever other inane insult people like you like to throw around.

A rose by any other name would still the same.

Go on. You know you want to. All those inane insults in your head. Let them all out and feel better about yourself.

[Recusant]

Drich, please learn how to use the quote function properly, if you have the time. 

How would possessing a gun help me or my family be safer if I were living in "'The Red Zone' — gang turf for the Seven Mile Bloods", or in any other neighborhood plagued by violence?

when city wide looting and the burning of homes and business start, you take out your ar's your hunting rfles hi-cap handguns and you defend yourself. and you shoot and kill anyone trying to start an occupied apartment building on fire, or burn down a strip mall or bust into a neighbors cell phone story or beauty parlor.. This very thing happened to a predominantly korean neighborhood in a red zone as most of the koreans owned stores that serviced the black community and during oj's or the trial of rodney kings cops trial was over. after that LA burned for days. days of no police or army, for days as the cops refused to go there. where this korean community was held not burned or looted because the men there bann together and fought off the 'zombies.'
https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/28/us/la-riots-korean-americans/index.html

story buried because black people where oppressive majority oppressing and signaling out a specific minority.

You're not presenting a coherent argument, and you failed to answer the question.

You're doing journeyman work reinforcing stereotypes here, Drich. Boring.

what's boring is how you dismiss topic either you can not discuss or are ill equipped to discuss. If you want people to play nice with you don't pretend you are not passively aggressively antagonizing them. you are not fooling anyone here. either address the question or statement or don't. either way don't pretend you are above a discussion and then threaten someone's membership when they call you out for playing games.

Personally, I wouldn't mind trading insults with you, but that's not how things work here. You haven't presented a genuine argument, you've thrown around scare scenarios and claimed they demonstrate something that they do not. You want some response beyond bland dismissal, you do the work.

You don't know anything about where I live, or where I've lived in the past. You need to read the rules of this site: Calling the general membership (except for a few it seems you think you might approve of) is not on. This is a friendly reminder. You've done OK up to now keeping within the rules, but I can tell you that you're not doing yourself any favors by relying on insults, and there won't be any more friendly reminders.

this is exactly what i meant. I even called this behavior in the last paragraph!

I just re read the rules for the 7th time and no where in it is there a section or subsection referred  to as "Calling the general membership."

If you are going to cite the rule please give me clear indication of the written rule and a summary of how i broken.

I appreciate a warning verses an infraction, but in this case i do not see any rules broken. Other than the big unwritten rule of all atheist websites (Christian's must loose all arguments. )

Ah, so you fancy yourself something of a rules lawyer. If so you already know that doesn't work. Here's something to take on board, which as a rules lawyer, you shouldn't have missed: You haven't got a warning from me, you've got a reminder. You may not get any warnings at all. There is a rules enforcement process, but it's not a straitjacket. Staff can and will do what is deemed salutary for the site by skipping steps in that process.

I'm afraid you're not a very impressive rules lawyer. After seven readings you've failed to note that the first rule of this site is for members to "remember the importance of civility."