Author Topic: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81  (Read 701 times)

Bad Penny II

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I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.


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Dave

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 12:41:47 PM »
I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I agree, she certainly played a part in the anti-apartheid days but later, in the objective view, she seemed to be less than an asset for South Africa's image in the global picture.

Come to think about it the movers and shakers down there often seem their own worst enemies. I hope Hermes gives us his perspective on this.
Tomorrow is precious, don't ruin it by fouling up today.

hermes2015

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 03:24:05 PM »
I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I agree, she certainly played a part in the anti-apartheid days but later, in the objective view, she seemed to be less than an asset for South Africa's image in the global picture.

Come to think about it the movers and shakers down there often seem their own worst enemies. I hope Hermes gives us his perspective on this.

There is no doubt that she encouraged murder and was an endless source of embarrassment to her husband. I am not very political, although in my student days was on the security police list of suspect people, but that was mainly because of certain friends I had. In the first free elections I, and many other "liberal" people voted for the ANC, only to be felt betrayed and let down later. Mandela was a decent person, but the rest of his family are bad news. The wheels have turned completely, and now it is very hard to find any ANC supporters among liberals and other thinking people. Support the Democratic Alliance has grown tremendously. The ANC has become synonymous with corruption and inefficiency. Of all the people formerly involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, I have most respect for Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kasrils, who are both intelligent and honourable people.

Dave

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 05:14:05 PM »

I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I agree, she certainly played a part in the anti-apartheid days but later, in the objective view, she seemed to be less than an asset for South Africa's image in the global picture.

Come to think about it the movers and shakers down there often seem their own worst enemies. I hope Hermes gives us his perspective on this.

There is no doubt that she encouraged murder and was an endless source of embarrassment to her husband. I am not very political, although in my student days was on the security police list of suspect people, but that was mainly because of certain friends I had. In the first free elections I, and many other "liberal" people voted for the ANC, only to be felt betrayed and let down later. Mandela was a decent person, but the rest of his family are bad news. The wheels have turned completely, and now it is very hard to find any ANC supporters among liberals and other thinking people. Support the Democratic Alliance has grown tremendously. The ANC has become synonymous with corruption and inefficiency. Of all the people formerly involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, I have most respect for Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kasrils, who are both intelligent and honourable people.

Pretty much what I expected, Hermes. Her support for "necklacing" alone would have demolished any respect I felt for her.

They mentioned another actor whose name was not familiar to me, and which I did not really catch on the radio item, the charismatic leader of some party or group with "liberation army" in its name? Whenever I hear that phrase I am left with the feeling that the violence is nowhere near over. Got the impression that his visit to the family (with a large following) was unexpected but he claimed a sort of part ownership - in words of unity that might be purely cynical - of the political legacy attached to Winnie Mandela.
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hermes2015

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2018, 05:53:14 PM »

I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I agree, she certainly played a part in the anti-apartheid days but later, in the objective view, she seemed to be less than an asset for South Africa's image in the global picture.

Come to think about it the movers and shakers down there often seem their own worst enemies. I hope Hermes gives us his perspective on this.

There is no doubt that she encouraged murder and was an endless source of embarrassment to her husband. I am not very political, although in my student days was on the security police list of suspect people, but that was mainly because of certain friends I had. In the first free elections I, and many other "liberal" people voted for the ANC, only to be felt betrayed and let down later. Mandela was a decent person, but the rest of his family are bad news. The wheels have turned completely, and now it is very hard to find any ANC supporters among liberals and other thinking people. Support the Democratic Alliance has grown tremendously. The ANC has become synonymous with corruption and inefficiency. Of all the people formerly involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, I have most respect for Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kasrils, who are both intelligent and honourable people.

Pretty much what I expected, Hermes. Her support for "necklacing" alone would have demolished any respect I felt for her.

They mentioned another actor whose name was not familiar to me, and which I did not really catch on the radio item, the charismatic leader of some party or group with "liberation army" in its name? Whenever I hear that phrase I am left with the feeling that the violence is nowhere near over. Got the impression that his visit to the family (with a large following) was unexpected but he claimed a sort of part ownership - in words of unity that might be purely cynical - of the political legacy attached to Winnie Mandela.

In a mix of first world and third world communities that only really interact in the workplace, it is inevitable that the very vocal radicals, who are actually in the minority, should attract the support of lesser educated citizens. This is found on the left and the right. There is a large and sensible "silent majority" here that tends to keep things on an even keel. It's probably only by visiting that one can get a better feeling for the situation.

Dave

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2018, 06:33:14 PM »

I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I agree, she certainly played a part in the anti-apartheid days but later, in the objective view, she seemed to be less than an asset for South Africa's image in the global picture.

Come to think about it the movers and shakers down there often seem their own worst enemies. I hope Hermes gives us his perspective on this.

There is no doubt that she encouraged murder and was an endless source of embarrassment to her husband. I am not very political, although in my student days was on the security police list of suspect people, but that was mainly because of certain friends I had. In the first free elections I, and many other "liberal" people voted for the ANC, only to be felt betrayed and let down later. Mandela was a decent person, but the rest of his family are bad news. The wheels have turned completely, and now it is very hard to find any ANC supporters among liberals and other thinking people. Support the Democratic Alliance has grown tremendously. The ANC has become synonymous with corruption and inefficiency. Of all the people formerly involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, I have most respect for Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kasrils, who are both intelligent and honourable people.

Pretty much what I expected, Hermes. Her support for "necklacing" alone would have demolished any respect I felt for her.

They mentioned another actor whose name was not familiar to me, and which I did not really catch on the radio item, the charismatic leader of some party or group with "liberation army" in its name? Whenever I hear that phrase I am left with the feeling that the violence is nowhere near over. Got the impression that his visit to the family (with a large following) was unexpected but he claimed a sort of part ownership - in words of unity that might be purely cynical - of the political legacy attached to Winnie Mandela.

In a mix of first world and third world communities that only really interact in the workplace, it is inevitable that the very vocal radicals, who are actually in the minority, should attract the support of lesser educated citizens. This is found on the left and the right. There is a large and sensible "silent majority" here that tends to keep things on an even keel. It's probably only by visiting that one can get a better feeling for the situation.

How much influence, if any, does tribal affiliation have on the divisions between parties? Immediarely before and post aparheid's ending I seem to remember frequent mention of this but wonder if it has become something of an elephant in the room.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 06:57:23 PM by Dave »
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hermes2015

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2018, 06:41:44 PM »

I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I agree, she certainly played a part in the anti-apartheid days but later, in the objective view, she seemed to be less than an asset for South Africa's image in the global picture.

Come to think about it the movers and shakers down there often seem their own worst enemies. I hope Hermes gives us his perspective on this.

There is no doubt that she encouraged murder and was an endless source of embarrassment to her husband. I am not very political, although in my student days was on the security police list of suspect people, but that was mainly because of certain friends I had. In the first free elections I, and many other "liberal" people voted for the ANC, only to be felt betrayed and let down later. Mandela was a decent person, but the rest of his family are bad news. The wheels have turned completely, and now it is very hard to find any ANC supporters among liberals and other thinking people. Support the Democratic Alliance has grown tremendously. The ANC has become synonymous with corruption and inefficiency. Of all the people formerly involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, I have most respect for Desmond Tutu and Ronnie Kasrils, who are both intelligent and honourable people.

Pretty much what I expected, Hermes. Her support for "necklacing" alone would have demolished any respect I felt for her.

They mentioned another actor whose name was not familiar to me, and which I did not really catch on the radio item, the charismatic leader of some party or group with "liberation army" in its name? Whenever I hear that phrase I am left with the feeling that the violence is nowhere near over. Got the impression that his visit to the family (with a large following) was unexpected but he claimed a sort of part ownership - in words of unity that might be purely cynical - of the political legacy attached to Winnie Mandela.

In a mix of first world and third world communities that only really interact in the workplace, it is inevitable that the very vocal radicals, who are actually in the minority, should attract the support of lesser educated citizens. This is found on the left and the right. There is a large and sensible "silent majority" here that tends to keep things on an even keel. It's probably only by visiting that one can get a better feeling for the situation.

How much influence, if any, does tribal affiliation have on the divisions between parties? Immediarely begore and post aparheid's edfing I seem to remember frequent mention of this but wonder if it has become something of an elephant in the room.

Unfortunately, tribalism still plays a very big part in politics. Outsiders just perceive one big black group on the one side and whites and Asians on the other. In reality there are huge differences and rivalries, bordering on racism, between the different black tribes. It's similar to the Middle East, where outsiders just see a block of Arabs, whereas there is no such thing as Arab unity and very little solidarity.

Sandra Craft

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2018, 11:06:52 PM »
I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I'm guessing part of it is that usual "speak no ill of the dead" business, coupled with "don't tip the icon, we don't have that many of them".  Same thing happened after Mother Teresa's death.
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Dave

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Re: Winnie Madikizela-Mandela: Anti-apartheid campaigner dies at 81
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2018, 06:06:47 AM »
I was a bit surprised to wake up and hear pretty much total praise for Winnie, I had the impression she wasn't very nice at all.

She was accused of conducting a virtual reign of terror in parts of Soweto by other members of the ANC in the late 1980s, and heard backing the practice of "necklacing" - putting burning tyres around suspected informants' necks.

I'm guessing part of it is that usual "speak no ill of the dead" business, coupled with "don't tip the icon, we don't have that many of them".  Same thing happened after Mother Teresa's death.

That "do not speak ill of the dead" stupidity is something that I will never subscribe to. A dead "evil" person was still "evil" and deserves that description still. I do not like using that adjective but how else does one describe necklacing? Sometimes, their death is humanity's gain.

Speaking of such as a positive icon reveals as much of the speaker as the subject; they are either forgiving beyond the bounds of sense, employing the worst kind of cynical politics or potentially as "evil".
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