Homosexuality and Christianity | Split from TWC Introduction Thread

[BooksCatsEtc]

I miss the Star Trek debate already.

But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

Ditto with the not-pigeonholing-Xtians, unless they ask for it.  I not only have a number of friends who are gay and devoutly religious, I have a number of relatives who are both as well.  An aunt of mine was in a committed relationship with another woman for 30 years.  They broke up about 15 years ago, as people sometimes do even after a long time together, and she's been celibate since. 

I really don't see the point of voluntary celibacy myself, and I know she's had a lot of grief in her life trying to square her religion's pronouncements on homosexuality with her own nature, but still I have to respect her committment to her religious beliefs and willingness to struggle with it all.  It's not everybody, gay or straight, who wouldn't just go right to lip service when their religion interfered with their sex life.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

I miss the Star Trek debate already.

But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

Ditto with the not-pigeonholing-Xtians, unless they ask for it.  I not only have a number of friends who are gay and devoutly religious, I have a number of relatives who are both as well.  An aunt of mine was in a committed relationship with another woman for 30 years.  They broke up about 15 years ago, as people sometimes do even after a long time together, and she's been celibate since.  

I really don't see the point of voluntary celibacy myself, and I know she's had a lot of grief in her life trying to square her religion's pronouncements on homosexuality with her own nature, but still I have to respect her committment to her religious beliefs and willingness to struggle with it all.  It's not everybody, gay or straight, who wouldn't just go right to lip service when their religion interfered with their sex life.

We can certainly continue the Star Trek discussion in the original thread or in a new thread on a specific aspect of Star Trek.  Its creator, Gene Roddenberry, was an atheist, and that contributed greatly to his vision of the future.  Star Trek and atheism (or even science fiction and atheism) would be a great thread, one to which I would gladly contribute if someone started it.  Or someone can start a new thread on something else without atheism.  That is the type of discussion I relish.

As to homosexuality and Christianity...  So much pain and all for no reason.  I'll preface my next remarks by reiterating that there are Christians, Jews, Muslims, and members of other religions who are straight allies and don't hurt gay people.  The church in which I was raised was originally a house of horrors; however, my parents and sister are now involved in a church which made being pro-gay and pro-gay marriage a requirement for the new minister it had to hire a few years ago.  Consequently, there are now a small number of lesbians in the church.  My sister, who is also the head Sunday School teacher, is largely responsible for changes in this church, and that is to a large degree because of the horrible things done to me in the name of Jesus.  (I don't know any of you well enough to feel safe/comfortable discussing the specific details.  I also do not know how many Christians are on the board, and I am afraid of being attacked if I pounce too hard on religion.  That was my experience on my last atheist board.)  

I will say a couple of things instead of all that is on my mind...  If I say nothing, my being on this board serves no purpose.  

First, my church had said that there was no such thing as homosexuality.  The devil created the temptations, but Jesus drove them away.  I also knew that I was of Mediterranean descent, and straight Mediterranean guys (Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, Turks, Israelis, Arabs...) are very touchy-feely with each other in a non-sexual way.  That, I theorized, was why I liked to put my arm around guys' shoulders, and since Mediterranean guys in my church did that it was all right.  I was not gay, I believed, since gay did not exist.  So sad.  

What kills me most, though, and what I was spared, is Christian parents who disown their gay kids.  Homeless teenage prostitutes, many gay and only in their teens, are thus created.  Too many have unprotected sex since they need money to eat; they then suffer the ravages of sexually-transmitted diseases.  

I got killed for saying this to Christians one...   If Jesus were real instead of an idealized projection, he would not be the buddy of Republicans in boardrooms.  He would be hanging out with gay prostitutes, homeless people, punks and goths, poor minorities, the downtrodden--basically, the folks represented by the characters in Rent.  But I guess it is like the urban legend of the Christian parent who smacks the child for saying Jesus was Jewish.  Of course, Jesus was Christian.  And he spoke English.  --SIGH--

The thought of Jesus palling around with...  homosexuals!  So many good Christians don't want to hear it.  (At least I know my parents and sister, who are all Christian, agree with me.  Most of the rest of the family, all Christian, despises me since I am a homosexual and think barbaric thoughts like a polysexual Jesus hugging and comforting a person with AIDS.  Which is the real Christianity?  I wish it were the hugging and comforting thing...  But my wishing is not enough.  Atheism is the only path for me.)  

If only Gene Roddenberry, Socrates, and Jesus could walk hand in hand in public.

[Firebird]

I got killed for saying this to Christians one...   If Jesus were real instead of an idealized projection, he would not be the buddy of Republicans in boardrooms.  He would be hanging out with gay prostitutes, homeless people, punks and goths, poor minorities, the downtrodden--basically, the folks represented by the characters in Rent.  But I guess it is like the urban legend of the Christian parent who smacks the child for saying Jesus was Jewish.  Of course, Jesus was Christian.  And he spoke English.  --SIGH--

That's a fantastic analogy. I do think it's very important to make a distinction between what Jesus the man was apparently saying (if he did exist) vs. the church that grew up out of a twisted version of his teachings. 

[Will37]

Hello and welcome from a Christian.  Sorry for my fundie bretheren.  

Not an issue.  If you accept me as if, I will most gladly do the same for you.

Besides, I get along with my parents, sister, and Christian colleagues at work since they are all quite liberal.  In fact, when one of my colleagues was new a few years ago, she heard through the grapevine that I was gay and introduced herself by saying that her minister was gay and against Fundamentalists.  Quite an odd thing to hear from someone I had known for less than 30 seconds...

I do get regularly attacked by Christians in my extended family and one person in particular in my volunteer work, the latter being the person whose latest attack convinced me to join this board to retain my sanity...  But I know that not every Christian is like this.  I don't like the religion and fear its effect on people, but I do respect good people who happen to be Christian (or Jewish or Muslim or...)  It's a matter of agreeing to disagree.

I also have a gay friend who is a very conservative Christian and is thus celibate--and approaching 40.  This is very hard for me, as I feel bad for him.  (Not that I should talk, as I am single and won't say how long it has been since I have had sex; I tend to be very sexually conservative too...  Anyway...)  This is what he wants, but he is otherwise a decent guy.  He is also a teacher, and we share a lot of our experiences.

I won't lie to you and say I don't have issue with the sexual acts of the gay, but I have the same issue with the sexual acts of the straight.  I put no extra sin on the gay that indulge in sexual activity as they see fit.  Me being a straight male does not make me a better "Christian" than a gay male Christian...or non-Christian for that matter just because my sexual acts involve myself and a female/wife.  Within my belief system, we all need the same amount of Christ IN US to be saved.  I hope to say that is not offensive.  Feel free to question me on this if it is.  

I wish you had stuck with good wishes, particularly since I have, for the most part, stayed in this lounge section of the board where I am supposed to relax and take it easy.  I did not come here to debate Christians; the presence of Christians and their criticism of me is what made me leave my last atheist board.  --SIGH!--  End of honeymoon day two on the board.  Now I have to get down to serious business.

What you wrote is not offensive on the surface--but on some levels it is quite offensive since this is the word game many Christians play to fake empathy for gays but also stick in a little preaching.  It goes something like this: "Gay sex is not any more of a sin than anything else we all do, and we all need to be saved from the penalty of our sins."  

There are only a handful of references in the Bible that may or may not be about gay people.  See the first paragraph of my post here as to why these references may not be about gays at all:  

http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9833.msg180029#msg180029

I only scratch the surface, but many argue this point--not just the rabbis I talked about.  

I understand that as a Christian you probably want the words of a Christian minister who has done extensive research and supposedly speaks to Jesus.  Here is one, as I don't have the time or desire to do a long search for many.   (You can, as there are many out there).  I know this piece and have used it in my volunteer counseling with young gays, some of whom are Christians who would not benefit from my atheist perspective.  It is called "A Letter to Louise: A Biblical Affirmation of Homosexuality."  The author is a pro-gay Baptist minister--a married heterosexual in his 90s, I might add.    

http://godmademegay.com/  

Click on "Six Points" from the menu atop the page and then scroll down to "1. There is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality or homosexual people."

That being said...  Even if the verses in question are about gays (which I do not believe they are), there are many, many more references to helping the poor--and that is something most of our Bible thumpers don't really do.  Given the sheer number of references, to which should our attention be drawn?  And yet, it is the thumpers who vote away jobs and health care and allow the downtrodden to rot in the street who donate incredible amounts to anti-gay advertising, agencies, and lobbyists.    

Now, on being saved: I don't believe I need to be saved from anything other than dirty laundry.

Next: Why would you have issue with the sexual acts of gay people?  Many heterosexuals practice sodomy and oral sex, the things gays are stereotyped as doing.  Some gays (myself included) have never had it or put it up the ass and never want to; some straight guys, on the other hand, love it when their girlfriends and wives put fingers, beaded necklaces, and other items up there.  So, who is the sodomite?    

Also, why is it a sin to kiss a man but not a sin to dash the heads of infants against a wall/rock?  The Bible is full of dashing.  And if you take a look at The Book of Job, you see how petty and vindictive the Judeo-Christian god is--and all to prove to the devil that he is right.  Why would an omnipotent being need to prove anything, and why would he care what the devil thought of him?  And how could he think that replacing dead children with new children will appease a father who loved the original children?

This is who I am supposed to follow?  This is who calls my love a sin?  I will never dash an infant's head, but I will give a man a deep kiss.

Mainstream Christianity has always been opposed to homosexuality.  I really find all these arguments trying to claim that the Bible doesn't 'really' mean what it obviously does quite jesuitical.  They just put a respectable mask on a sexually repressive and misogynistic religion. 


écrasez l'infâme!

[fester30]

I agree completely on who Jesus would be hanging out with.  I mention that to my right-winger family and friends when they talk about their love for god.  At first, they accuse me of blasphemy.  After I read some Bible verses, however, they calm down a bit and understand that perhaps Jesus wouldn't have belonged to a political party.  That's part of the reason I still keep a Bible handy in my house.  Helps me to speak the language of those around me so that I can more effectively get through to them. 

I can't imagine all the horrors kids go through in the already turbulent teenage years when they happen to be gay and people around them are telling them how evil and horrible they are and how they are going to hell.  Teenagers already feel like freaks when they are just growing into their adult bodies, and there are groups that want to make them feel more like freaks. 

[TheWalkingContradiction]

Just want to point out that I never meant for this to be a separate thread.  My second day on the board, I had responded to a very ugly post in my introductory thread, and this thread was then split from the original.

Since the ideas expressed here are important, I welcome the continued discussion. Christians who have issues with gays must be challenged (even in introductory threads in the lounge section) since there may be young gay people reading the board as guests; they need to see that we can and do stand up to Christians and other theists.  

I understand where Will37 is coming from, and part of me agrees.  However, at the risk of repeating things I have alredy posted in my debate with Davin, I believe that when one is dealing with an ancient culture the most once can hope for is "speculation" (to use Davin's word).  

There are many scolars of ancient history, ancient languages, Judaic studies, comparative mythology, and other fields who argue that when we translate ancient words and concepts as condemnation of homosexuality, we are off base.  We assume they are taling about homosexuality because of the bias of earlier Christian translators, they say.  Still, there are others who argue that they are indeed talking about homosexuality.  Who is right?  In my opinion, we will never know.  Most likely, everyone is wrong since all opinions, even the supposedly unbiased ones, are quite biased and reflect 21st-century values instead of ancient ones.  

Think about the major cultural differences even in modern society.  How much misunderstanding remains despite the best efforts of scholars to explain the way different groups think and act today?  Can there be any less misunderstanding as we go back in time and try to interpret cultures that no longer exist and were nothing like us?  (Here is where my infamous example of the ancient Greek vase caused Davin and I to exchange so many words.  And yet, I do not say that either of us is right or wrong.  What can we truly know, after all?  We can know many things about science and reality through the scientific method, but history is not science.  Of course, that is my opinion--and the opinion of many others.  Still, many others would not agree.)

Perhaps scholarship about civilizations that have left the fewest records--the Etruscans, the Minoans, the people of Çatal Hüyük in what is now part of Turkey--is more honest than that of the Israelites, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, and early Christians.  After all, these last five have profound religious, cultural and psychological importance to the West, and we have been interpreting them for centuries.  Maybe it is better to say that we have been misinterpreting them for centuries.  In dealing with the Etruscans, the Minoans, and Çatal Hüyük, however, I am struck by how forward many (not all) scholars are in stating that what we don't know greatly overshadows what we think we know--and how honest many are in stating that much of what they put forward is a best guess based on avaliable evidence and scholarship.

Imagine that, at some very distant future point, the earth is about to explode like Krypton.  Some people get away and populate other planets.  The human population intermixes with alien civilizations (quite a stretch, I realize, as alien life will probably be so different from humanoid life that we may not even recognize it as life--but this is an intellectual exercise, not reality).  Now that there is no more human civilization and very little is remembered of human life, a group of scholars who have some human DNA gushing through whatever passes for their veins (assuming something does indeed gush through them, that they have something similar to veins, and that human DNA can actually be present and be detected) are very interested in these bizarre ancient humans, and, for academic reasons we could never guess at, have a particular interest in the late 20th century and early 21st century.  Are you all with me?  Now, let's see what they will use to reconstruct us.

They have The Hymn to God by the Madonna (Madonna's song "Like a Prayer"), an account of the messiah who lead his people out of slavery (a third grade reader about the life of Martin Luther King, Jr.), clips of the spiritual hero who defeated the devil through love (Harry Potter battling Voldemort), an empty Coca Cola bottle, a few pages from an X-Men comic book, and a highlighted, dogeared copy of Dianetics that once belonged to Tom Cruise.  From all this, they "reconstruct" our culture.

Do you think their reconstruction will resemble our culture even in the slightest degree?

Eventually, new findings by other scholars--Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire, the movie Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, an empty Pepsi bottle, and an edition of Davin and TWC's greatest debates annotated by DetermindedJuliet and Tank--will force everyone to rethink late 20th and early 21st century life, creating an academic war between the old school and the revisionists.

And then the two camps will split into many based on further new findings as new schools of intellectual thought spring up: Hyper-Revisionism, Semiotic-Super Revitalism, Spiritual Deconstructionist Agnostic Bipolarist Nehilism, and the rest.

And then...  The meaning of the Coca Cola bottle will be called into doubt, for they will have discovered...  Diet Coke!  The press will have a field day with this, for some scholars will speculate...  What if there was also Diet Pepsi?!!  It will turn the theological world on its ear, and scholars will have to be very careful what they say...

Welcome to the world of history as an academic discipline.

And so I ask...  Since homosexuality is a modern construct rooted in bias and ancient peoples most likely did not think about "sexual orientation," can we really say that the ancient words should be translated as "gay" or "homosexual"?  This is why many scholars of ancient languages, theists as well as atheists, take great pains in saying that these words actually mean "embarrassment" or "abomination" or what have you.  Do we have the right to force modern ideas onto an ancient culture?  That is indeed what many Christians do.

Are the ancients talking about what we would now call homosexuality?  Maybe yes.  Maybe no.  Probably a little of both.

Are we correct in reinterpreting the Hebrew and Christian myths?  Maybe yes.  Maybe no.  Probably a little of both.

Do young gays who do not wish to be atheists need to know that there is no reason to believe these ancient references definitely mean gay people?  Absolutely yes.
 

[DeterminedJuliet]

Eventually, new findings by other scholars--Anne Rice's Interview with the Vampire, the movie Attack of the Killer Tomatoes, an empty Pepsi bottle, and an edition of Davin and TWC's greatest debates annotated by DetermindedJuliet and Tank--will force everyone to rethink late 20th and early 21st century life, creating an academic war between the old school and the revisionists.

Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster, I hope nothing I've posted ends up in the hands of historians down the road -- those poor bastards. 

I agree with your point, though, TWC. I'd agree that "homosexuality" as we understand it today is definitely a more modern construct.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

écrasez l'infâme!

Après avoir fait un peu de recherche, j'ai trouvé la citation que tu as écrit.

 » Quoi que vous fassiez, écrasez l'infâme, et aimez qui vous aime. »

--Voltaire

Oui, on doit libérer l'esprit et détruire ce qui fait du mal ... Mais personne ne sait ce que Voltaire voulait dire par le mot infâme.  Il était déiste--et il était sceptique au sujet de la Bible.  Mais a-t-il considéré la Bible comme un livre de mythes et de légendes?  Je ne suis pas certain.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

I agree completely on who Jesus would be hanging out with.  I mention that to my right-winger family and friends when they talk about their love for god.  At first, they accuse me of blasphemy.  After I read some Bible verses, however, they calm down a bit and understand that perhaps Jesus wouldn't have belonged to a political party.  That's part of the reason I still keep a Bible handy in my house.  Helps me to speak the language of those around me so that I can more effectively get through to them. 

I can't imagine all the horrors kids go through in the already turbulent teenage years when they happen to be gay and people around them are telling them how evil and horrible they are and how they are going to hell.  Teenagers already feel like freaks when they are just growing into their adult bodies, and there are groups that want to make them feel more like freaks. 

I am quickly becoming a fester30 fan!  Thank you so much for understanding.

Yes indeed, such were my teenage years.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster, I hope nothing I've posted ends up in the hands of historians down the road -- those poor bastards. 

Why not?  You have more intelligence and heart than the average Joe and would represent us well.

[MaryJayne]

Reading through this thread makes me realize that I should take out a loan to purchase my moms next mothers day present....I need to thank her for the way she raised me...lack of indoctrination and exposure to all sorts of people.

When I was young, I saw gay couples as well as straight couples as part of my daily social life (my moms friends)...so it was ALL normal to me. People of various races and backgrounds were part of my everyday life as well. I didnt know that there were issues regarding that stuff til age 11 or so. I could never wrap my head around peoples issues with gays or people of a different race. To me its the same as hating people for eye color or hand size...makes no real sense to me.

I also was never made to feel like I was born "bad" and must beg forgiveness from some imaginary being my whole life and hope he would forgive me. I didnt grow up with such guilt and self flagullation. I always knew that all us humans were a mixed bag. I own my failures as well as my successes. I dont have to give glory to "god" when things go well but have to  take the heat when they dont ...what a SET UP! We take blame when we fail or make a bad choice but when its a success and we make a good choice, its all due to "god"

[Sweetdeath]

Reading through this thread makes me realize that I should take out a loan to purchase my moms next mothers day present....I need to thank her for the way she raised me...lack of indoctrination and exposure to all sorts of people.

When I was young, I saw gay couples as well as straight couples as part of my daily social life (my moms friends)...so it was ALL normal to me. People of various races and backgrounds were part of my everyday life as well. I didnt know that there were issues regarding that stuff til age 11 or so. I could never wrap my head around peoples issues with gays or people of a different race. To me its the same as hating people for eye color or hand size...makes no real sense to me.

I also was never made to feel like I was born "bad" and must beg forgiveness from some imaginary being my whole life and hope he would forgive me. I didnt grow up with such guilt and self flagullation. I always knew that all us humans were a mixed bag. I own my failures as well as my successes. I dont have to give glory to "god" when things go well but have to  take the heat when they dont ...what a SET UP! We take blame when we fail or make a bad choice but when its a success and we make a good choice, its all due to "god"

Yeah, my mom and dad were friends with gay people, black people, asian people, bleh bleh bleh. So as a kid, i was exposed early to all different types or sexuality, so it was all very normal to me as well. I think it's sooo sad when someone grows up in a bubble town, so when they move or visit a major city, it's like "WHAT IS THIS?"

I'm so grateful to have parents who gave me an open mind and never suppressed me from the various types of people and lifestyles/cultures as a child.

[fester30]

I agree completely on who Jesus would be hanging out with.  I mention that to my right-winger family and friends when they talk about their love for god.  At first, they accuse me of blasphemy.  After I read some Bible verses, however, they calm down a bit and understand that perhaps Jesus wouldn't have belonged to a political party.  That's part of the reason I still keep a Bible handy in my house.  Helps me to speak the language of those around me so that I can more effectively get through to them. 

I can't imagine all the horrors kids go through in the already turbulent teenage years when they happen to be gay and people around them are telling them how evil and horrible they are and how they are going to hell.  Teenagers already feel like freaks when they are just growing into their adult bodies, and there are groups that want to make them feel more like freaks. 

I am quickly becoming a fester30 fan!  Thank you so much for understanding.

Yes indeed, such were my teenage years.

I have gay family and friends.  I hate seeing them not being able to live their dreams, and when I saw two of my friends finally able to get married after years together, the emotion at the ceremony was incredible.  Civil rights causes need allies that don't personally suffer the same discriminations.  The civil rights movement in the 60s needed white allies.  The gay rights movement needs straight allies, because there just aren't enough LGBTQ people to take it on all by themselves.  I'm a huge fan of LGBTQ because different makes for variety, which to me increases the beauty of life.

[TheWalkingContradiction]

I have gay family and friends.  I hate seeing them not being able to live their dreams, and when I saw two of my friends finally able to get married after years together, the emotion at the ceremony was incredible.  Civil rights causes need allies that don't personally suffer the same discriminations.  The civil rights movement in the 60s needed white allies.  The gay rights movement needs straight allies, because there just aren't enough LGBTQ people to take it on all by themselves.  I'm a huge fan of LGBTQ because different makes for variety, which to me increases the beauty of life.

Well said indeed, fester30--and the reason I also stand up for women, racial and ethnic minorities, and others.  As an Arab-American, I stand up for Jews as often as I stand up for Arabs.  Like Sweetdeath and MaryJane, I was luck to have parents who thought all people were people and, while staunchly Christian, disagreed with any Chistian sentiment that demonized any group.

It's a beautiful thing to say that LGBTQ increases the beauty of life instead of saying it threatens the fabric and morality of society.  I can see that your gay friends and family are lucky to have you.  

[DeterminedJuliet]

Holy Flying Spaghetti Monster, I hope nothing I've posted ends up in the hands of historians down the road -- those poor bastards. 

Why not?  You have more intelligence and heart than the average Joe and would represent us well.

Haha, that's very kind, but I'd be quite happy to be relegated to anonymity after I go.