At the weekend I was watching a TV programme and the following statistic got quoted.
"There are 11 million domestic cats in the UK and they kill 60 million songbirds each year."
Assuming that the statistic is correct should humans keep cats as pets? They are obviously having a massive impact on wildlife. But on the upside how any mice and rats do they dispose of?
There's not enough information to really say. How many songbirds are there in the UK? Is 60 million a tiny percentage or a sizable one?
Is this a sustainable rate of killing or will the songbirds become extinct?
Isn't this nature at work?
Quote from: Velma on March 20, 2012, 09:19:20 AM
There's not enough information to really say. How many songbirds are there in the UK? Is 60 million a tiny percentage or a sizable one?
Good point. Don't know.
Quote from: Stevil on March 20, 2012, 09:36:50 AM
Is this a sustainable rate of killing or will the songbirds become extinct?
Isn't this nature at work?
Songbirds are in decline in the UK, that has been noted for a while. But whether it's cats and/or habitat decline is not something I've seen comments on.
If one considers humans and our behaviour as natural then yes this is a natural phenomenon. However apart from humans nature has no ability or desire to consciously self-regulate as it has no intelligence nor ability to predict effect from cause. If one considers human behaviour as unnatural then we are disturbing the normal balance of predator to prey where we house and feed a predator that then goes and hunts simply because it is in its nature to do so.
I don't have an answer, I'm just considering the issue. I think that if one wants to live in a world where our behaviour has as little impact as possible on the world around us then keeping millions of active and effective predators as pets may well not be a good idea.
People should keep cats as pets, but they should keep them indoors.
When I was working in the vet field, this was the official "stance" of most of the veterinary community. Besides the fact that it keeps the cats from killing other living things, it keeps the cats from getting injured (cat bite abscesses from cat fights are nasty ), from getting a whole host of nasty diseases (feline leukemia and FIV - feline "aids") and from over-populating. Plus, the average lifespan of an indoor cat is probably 15 years vs. 5-ish years for an outdoor cat.
I know a lot of people feel very strongly about letting their cat have "freedom", but honestly, it's for everyone's good if they're kept indoors. I have two kitties and the furthest they ever get outside is our apartment balcony.
I think that cats should be and indoor pet. However, I know that a lot of the barns in my area have problems with mice getting into the grain and the cats have helped a lot with that. Plus they don't have to put out poison or traps that another animal or person could get into.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 20, 2012, 02:36:06 PM
I think that cats should be and indoor pet. However, I know that a lot of the barns in my area have problems with mice getting into the grain and the cats have helped a lot with that. Plus they don't have to put out poison or traps that another animal or person could get into.
Yeah, I think that's fair. There will probably always be a need for "working cats".
But I doubt the bulk of 11 million kitties in the UK are barn kitties. Most people probably just let their domestic pet out and don't really think about it. That's what we used to do when we had cats growing up - now I'm the one nagging my parents about keeping their cats indoors.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 20, 2012, 02:36:06 PM
I think that cats should be and indoor pet. However, I know that a lot of the barns in my area have problems with mice getting into the grain and the cats have helped a lot with that. Plus they don't have to put out poison or traps that another animal or person could get into.
I think cats used in those circumstances are justifiable.
Regardless of their impact on the UK's bird population, pet cats should be kept inside, steps should be taken to reduce to feral population (nonlethal whenever possible), and people should be educated on the benefits of keeping their pet cats indoors and getting them spayed and neutered.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 02:13:42 PM
People should keep cats as pets, but they should keep them indoors.
When I was working in the vet field, this was the official "stance" of most of the veterinary community. Besides the fact that it keeps the cats from killing other living things, it keeps the cats from getting injured (cat bite abscesses from cat fights are nasty ), from getting a whole host of nasty diseases (feline leukemia and FIV - feline "aids") and from over-populating. Plus, the average lifespan of an indoor cat is probably 15 years vs. 5-ish years for an outdoor cat.
I know a lot of people feel very strongly about letting their cat have "freedom", but honestly, it's for everyone's good if they're kept indoors. I have two kitties and the furthest they ever get outside is our apartment balcony.
I don't like it when people confine an animal, birds in cages, dogs either locked up or always on a leash, cats always indoors.
Cat's killing their food, or getting into cat fights, that sounds like a decent cat's life to me.
Locked up, indoors, being feed processed meats, protected from the world and the world protected from them, that sounds like incarceration.
Are we to lock up all the tigers, lions, pumas, bobcats of the world too? How about the sharks, are we to lock them up? Protect them from the world and the world from them?
Of all human pets, I agree with having cats the most, because we can allow them to be free and simply choose to visit us once in a while, we don't have to destroy them as a creature of the world.
Quote from: Tank on March 20, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
But on the upside how any mice and rats do they dispose of?
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.diaperswappers.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilie%2Fcry5.gif&hash=ec0d199fe4664687509292aea3c62b9d48e4b6d5)
Quote from: Stevil on March 20, 2012, 06:12:17 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 02:13:42 PM
People should keep cats as pets, but they should keep them indoors.
When I was working in the vet field, this was the official "stance" of most of the veterinary community. Besides the fact that it keeps the cats from killing other living things, it keeps the cats from getting injured (cat bite abscesses from cat fights are nasty ), from getting a whole host of nasty diseases (feline leukemia and FIV - feline "aids") and from over-populating. Plus, the average lifespan of an indoor cat is probably 15 years vs. 5-ish years for an outdoor cat.
I know a lot of people feel very strongly about letting their cat have "freedom", but honestly, it's for everyone's good if they're kept indoors. I have two kitties and the furthest they ever get outside is our apartment balcony.
I don't like it when people confine an animal, birds in cages, dogs either locked up or always on a leash, cats always indoors.
Cat's killing their food, or getting into cat fights, that sounds like a decent cat's life to me.
Locked up, indoors, being feed processed meats, protected from the world and the world protected from them, that sounds like incarceration.
Are we to lock up all the tigers, lions, pumas, bobcats of the world too? How about the sharks, are we to lock them up? Protect them from the world and the world from them?
Of all human pets, I agree with having cats the most, because we can allow them to be free and simply choose to visit us once in a while, we don't have to destroy them as a creature of the world.
As a cat lover, I honestly do not believe that a cat suffers from an indoor life-style. If they're used to going outdoors, they'll want to go outdoors. If they're used to being indoors, they won't know any difference whatsoever.
Wild animals, such as sharks and tigers, display measurable signs of stress from captivity. In the 3 years I worked in the vet field, I never heard of an actual anxiety disorder diagnosed in a cat from having to stay indoors (at worst, they annoy the shit out of their owners for a while if they're already used to going outside).
And it's not just a matter of how the cat feels about it, it's also about being a responsible neighbour/member of the community. You might not care if your cat shits in someone else's garden and kills the birds at their bird feeder, but they probably do. A lot of municipalities are actually creating by-laws that cats MUST be kept indoors for these types of reasons.
So, on the one hand you have: Cats going outside because we like the idea of cats having freedom.
And on the other you have: Disease, parasites (roundworms are highly transferable to humans, BTW. Not to mention tapeworms, hookworms, whipworms and fleas and ticks), injury, shorter-life spans, uncontrolled cat populations, messing with nature's biodiversity and pissed off neighbours.
If we are going to take a creature and domesticate it, we're responsible for its welfare and effect on the world.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
So, on the one hand you have: Cats going outside because we like the idea of cats having freedom.
And on the other you have: Disease, parasites (roundworms are highly transferable to humans, BTW. Not to mention tapeworms, hookworms, whipworms and fleas and ticks), injury, shorter-life spans, uncontrolled cat populations, messing with nature's biodiversity and pissed off neighbours.
If we are going to take a creature and domesticate it, we're responsible for its welfare and effect on the world.
I can play this game too.
On the one hand you have: Cats in captivity because we like the idea of keeping them same from freedom and keeping the world safe from having them free.
And on the other you have: Cats roaming outside, in plain sight of people, having sex with other cats, getting into fights, chasing and killing smaller animals and generally having a life. Being part of nature's biodiversity and generally not being troubled by neighbours.
I guess it depends on where you live and what mindset you have. I have never had a conversation with a person stating that they are pissed off by domestic cats roaming free.
Quote from: Stevil on March 20, 2012, 06:54:02 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
So, on the one hand you have: Cats going outside because we like the idea of cats having freedom.
And on the other you have: Disease, parasites (roundworms are highly transferable to humans, BTW. Not to mention tapeworms, hookworms, whipworms and fleas and ticks), injury, shorter-life spans, uncontrolled cat populations, messing with nature's biodiversity and pissed off neighbours.
If we are going to take a creature and domesticate it, we're responsible for its welfare and effect on the world.
I can play this game too.
On the one hand you have: Cats in captivity because we like the idea of keeping them same from freedom and keeping the world safe from having them free.
And on the other you have: Cats roaming outside, in plain sight of people, having sex with other cats, getting into fights, chasing and killing smaller animals and generally having a life. Being part of nature's biodiversity and generally not being troubled by neighbours.
I guess it depends on where you live and what mindset you have. I have never had a conversation with a person stating that they are pissed off by domestic cats roaming free.
Well, there are enough of them out there to warrant policy changes in a lot of municipalities.
I still don't see why cats getting into fights with other cats is a good thing? Do you think that makes them happy? Do you think they care if they're in plain sight of people, either? Most of your arguments are based on your guesses as to how cats feel or how you feel, not what is actually best for them in any measurable way. Also, biodiversity refers to "totality of genes, species, and ecosystems of a region", so while saying that cats are "part" of biodiversity is technically correct but ignores the fact that they reduce biodiversity by killing off a large number of different species. Which is not "nature's way" because we are the ones that introduced domestic cats into these eco-systems.
Or would you rather un-checked colonies of diseased and starving feral cats everywhere and zero song-birds?
And hey, wait a second, aren't you the same guy who argued for human population control? I'm pretty sure all of those reproducing kitties out there aren't only having the offspring that they can support. ;)
EDIT: Also, I just wanted to say that I'm a bit passionate about this, but I acknowledge that everyone has the right to do with their pets as they please (so long as they aren't neglecting/abusing them). I know the vast majority of people just want to do what
they feel is best for their critters. I might sound like a bit of a hard ass about this here, but I can assure you, in "the real world" I don't usually go around giving people shit about what they do with their pets.
Quote from: Velma on March 20, 2012, 05:26:28 PM
Regardless of their impact on the UK's bird population, pet cats should be kept inside, steps should be taken to reduce to feral population (nonlethal whenever possible), and people should be educated on the benefits of keeping their pet cats indoors and getting them spayed and neutered.
I agree with this very much.
Stray cats should definitely be spayed and neutered as well. I think a program like that might exist?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Well, there are enough of them out there to warrant policy changes in a lot of municipalities.
yes, people are in the power seat, they seem to have the right to decide how other animals should live.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
I still don't see why cats getting into fights with other cats is a good thing?
Its part of life for a cat. they are territorial. Is it humans responsibility to stop cats doing that which cats do?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Do you think that makes them happy?
I am not overly concerned with making cats happy.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Do you think they care if they're in plain sight of people, either?
No, but you seem to care. You seem to be worried about neighbors getting annoyed from cats living out their lives outside.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Most of your arguments are based on your guesses as to how cats feel or how you feel, not what is actually best for them in any measurable way.
I don't pretend to know how a cat feels or what is best for the cat. I assume the cat is the one whom knows what is best for itself. If I leave my door open and the cat chooses to go through the door into the outside world, then I assume that the cat figures it is best at that moment to go outside. I am not the one making decisions on the cat's behalf for the greater good of the cat. You are judging me for leaving my door open, for allowing the cat to choose its path in life.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Also, biodiversity refers to "totality of genes, species, and ecosystems of a region", so while saying that cats are "part" of biodiversity is technically correct but ignores the fact that they reduce biodiversity by killing off a large number of different species.
What species have domesticated cats killed into extinction? How does that compare with other predatory animals including humans?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Which is not "nature's way" because we are the ones that introduced domestic cats into these eco-systems.
We are the ones that domesticated cats, I'll at least agree with that.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Or would you rather un-checked colonies of diseased and starving feral cats everywhere and zero song-birds?
An extreme view of my position. Here is my position just to remind you - "I like domestic cats to be free to roam outside when they choose to do so"
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
And hey, wait a second, aren't you the same guy who argued for human population control?
No, not me, sorry. I am for choice in life. People can choose to have no children, one child, or a squizillion, it's not my choice, its theirs.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
EDIT: Also, I just wanted to say that I'm a bit passionate about this
Teehee, I am enjoying the debate, no worries. I have no hate for you, because you disagree with me, "How dare you, you B---ch!, know your place!"
Just kidding.
Quote from: Stevil on March 20, 2012, 08:46:08 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
I still don't see why cats getting into fights with other cats is a good thing?
Its part of life for a cat. they are territorial. Is it humans responsibility to stop cats doing that which cats do?
Cats are territorial, for the most part, when they aren't neutered. And yes, I think neutering is another area where humans should definitely interfere with the lives of their animals. A neutered cat is unlikely to pick fights with other cats, but still might be attacked by an aggressive tom if he/she goes outside.
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Do you think that makes them happy?
I am not overly concerned with making cats happy.
You seem to be.
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Do you think they care if they're in plain sight of people, either?
No, but you seem to care. You seem to be worried about neighbors getting annoyed from cats living out their lives outside.
I listed the impact that cats have on the community as a "con" factor that everyone should consider. You listed "cats being seen in plain view of people" as a "pro", so I'm just wondering why. If you don't care, why list it?
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Most of your arguments are based on your guesses as to how cats feel or how you feel, not what is actually best for them in any measurable way.
I don't pretend to know how a cat feels or what is best for the cat. I assume the cat is the one whom knows what is best for itself. If I leave my door open and the cat chooses to go through the door into the outside world, then I assume that the cat figures it is best at that moment to go outside. I am not the one making decisions on the cat's behalf for the greater good of the cat. You are judging me for leaving my door open, for allowing the cat to choose its path in life.
If you had a dog, would you do the same thing? I'm sure there are a lot of dogs that would love to run wild and, arguably, some of them would probably cause less trouble than some cats. Does this principle applies to every living thing, or just cats for some reason?
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Also, biodiversity refers to "totality of genes, species, and ecosystems of a region", so while saying that cats are "part" of biodiversity is technically correct but ignores the fact that they reduce biodiversity by killing off a large number of different species.
What species have domesticated cats killed into extinction? How does that compare with other predatory animals including humans?
Welll, this thread was started because Tank posted an article that possibly connects the destruction of song-birds with a very large cat population. And I know, in Newfoundland, there's a rare species of Pine Martin (which only live in one place in the world - the western coast of Newfoundland) who are increasingly threatened because they ONLY eat meadow vole (another threatened species). Part of the problem is that other predators, including cats, kill all kinds of rodents indiscriminately, edging out the Pine Martin's diet.
But no, I don't have hard "proof" at my finger tips. Though it would make sense that if cats are outside and killing things, they're probably killing all kinds of birds/rodents, not just the ones that we'd like them to kill. Also lots of domestic cats don't kill because they need to eat; they kill because they have the instincts to do so. If you have an outdoor cat, I assume you've gotten some of their "presents", which are ultimately wasted (um... unless you eat them).
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
Or would you rather un-checked colonies of diseased and starving feral cats everywhere and zero song-birds?
An extreme view of my position. Here is my position just to remind you - "I like domestic cats to be free to roam outside when they choose to do so"
I guess it depends on whether you feel they should be neutered/spayed when they roam free. I might have jumped the gun a bit.
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
And hey, wait a second, aren't you the same guy who argued for human population control?
No, not me, sorry. I am for choice in life. People can choose to have no children, one child, or a squizillion, it's not my choice, its theirs.
Sorry, for some reason I really thought you had chimed in on that side of the debate. My apologies :)
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 20, 2012, 07:16:02 PM
EDIT: Also, I just wanted to say that I'm a bit passionate about this
Teehee, I am enjoying the debate, no worries. I have no hate for you, because you disagree with me, "How dare you, you B---ch!, know your place!"
Just kidding.
Haha, Rawrr!
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 20, 2012, 08:29:44 PM
Quote from: Velma on March 20, 2012, 05:26:28 PM
Regardless of their impact on the UK's bird population, pet cats should be kept inside, steps should be taken to reduce to feral population (nonlethal whenever possible), and people should be educated on the benefits of keeping their pet cats indoors and getting them spayed and neutered.
I agree with this very much.
Stray cats should definitely be spayed and neutered as well. I think a program like that might exist?
There are various "catch-and-release" programs all over the place. One of the vets I used to work for operated a place called "kitty town" where she tended to feral cats. She spent a lot of weekends catching and neutering the males. I also used to volunteer in an annual "free cat neuter day" at my old hospital for low income people who otherwise couldn't afford to get their cats neutered.
It's just one of those things that is really hard to keep up on, unfortunately. Cats reproduce very quickly and reach sexual maturity very quickly, so their numbers do get out of hand in a lot of places despite the efforts of programs like this. There are people who are trying to help, though. :)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 02:20:37 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 20, 2012, 08:29:44 PM
Quote from: Velma on March 20, 2012, 05:26:28 PM
Regardless of their impact on the UK's bird population, pet cats should be kept inside, steps should be taken to reduce to feral population (nonlethal whenever possible), and people should be educated on the benefits of keeping their pet cats indoors and getting them spayed and neutered.
I agree with this very much.
Stray cats should definitely be spayed and neutered as well. I think a program like that might exist?
There are various "catch-and-release" programs all over the place. One of the vets I used to work for operated a place called "kitty town" where she tended to feral cats. She spent a lot of weekends catching and neutering the males. I also used to volunteer in an annual "free cat neuter day" at my old hospital for low income people who otherwise couldn't afford to get their cats neutered.
It's just one of those things that is really hard to keep up on, unfortunately. Cats reproduce very quickly and reach sexual maturity very quickly, so their numbers do get out of hand in a lot of places despite the efforts of programs like this. There are people who are trying to help, though. :)
We have one that comes around annually to our Humane society called the Neuter Scooter. My vet also has discounted rates for feral cats.
Quote from: Budhorse4 on March 21, 2012, 02:31:22 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 02:20:37 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 20, 2012, 08:29:44 PM
Quote from: Velma on March 20, 2012, 05:26:28 PM
Regardless of their impact on the UK's bird population, pet cats should be kept inside, steps should be taken to reduce to feral population (nonlethal whenever possible), and people should be educated on the benefits of keeping their pet cats indoors and getting them spayed and neutered.
I agree with this very much.
Stray cats should definitely be spayed and neutered as well. I think a program like that might exist?
There are various "catch-and-release" programs all over the place. One of the vets I used to work for operated a place called "kitty town" where she tended to feral cats. She spent a lot of weekends catching and neutering the males. I also used to volunteer in an annual "free cat neuter day" at my old hospital for low income people who otherwise couldn't afford to get their cats neutered.
It's just one of those things that is really hard to keep up on, unfortunately. Cats reproduce very quickly and reach sexual maturity very quickly, so their numbers do get out of hand in a lot of places despite the efforts of programs like this. There are people who are trying to help, though. :)
We have one that comes around annually to our Humane society called the Neuter Scooter. My vet also has discounted rates for feral cats.
I'm so glad programs like these exist.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:53:10 PM
Quote from: Stevil
I am not overly concerned with making cats happy.
You seem to be.
No, not really. I don't think the value of life is simply to be happy. Otherwise we ought to drug ourselves up to the hilt and be HAPPY.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:53:10 PM
I listed the impact that cats have on the community as a "con" factor that everyone should consider. You listed "cats being seen in plain view of people" as a "pro", so I'm just wondering why. If you don't care, why list it?
I responded just to show that I am ambivalent to the concern people have of seeing cats roam free. Should we enforce women to wear bed sheets because men may have impure thoughts at the sight of these "sexy" women?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:53:10 PM
If you had a dog, would you do the same thing? I'm sure there are a lot of dogs that would love to run wild and, arguably, some of them would probably cause less trouble than some cats. Does this principle applies to every living thing, or just cats for some reason?
I wouldn't choose to own a dog unless I had a farm or a rather large lifestyle block.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:53:10 PM
I guess it depends on whether you feel they should be neutered/spayed when they roam free. I might have jumped the gun a bit.
Yes, I think it is responsible to get your cat pets neutered.
Quote from: Tank on March 20, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
At the weekend I was watching a TV programme and the following statistic got quoted.
"There are 11 million domestic cats in the UK and they kill 60 million songbirds each year."
Assuming that the statistic is correct should humans keep cats as pets? They are obviously having a massive impact on wildlife. But on the upside how any mice and rats do they dispose of?
My cats stay inside so they don't get a chance to kill anything that we wouldn't want them to kill...basically they only kill bugs.
The dog, on the other hand, sometimes tries to eat geckos she finds outside so we have to discourage her...geckos are cute and they eat bugs.
Quote from: Stevil on March 21, 2012, 07:12:28 PM
I responded just to show that I am ambivalent to the concern people have of seeing cats roam free. Should we enforce women to wear bed sheets because men may have impure thoughts at the sight of these "sexy" women?
If the woman is homicidal perhaps a straight jacket would be more appropriate. I don't see how the depredations of cats are analogous to sexy women in any useful way. Ambivalence from people who live where the wildlife evolved with cat predation is one thing, from Australians I find it despicable. Unique island ecosystems forever changed because the interlopers like things to look like home.
Yes these are my values and I'm entitled to them and others are entitled to theirs, and apparently they feel their freedom extends to their free roaming pet predators. It's worse than that though, you kill a native animal and you're in trouble, your cat does it, oh well it's only natural.
The case of New Zealand is more extreme than Australia, islands where birds filled niches mammals did elsewhere. I know not all Kiwis (there's an ironic term for you) are so apathetic and they try to protect what's left.
7 BILLION PEOPLE ON EARTH
Fewer than 150 KAKAPO (http://www.kakaporecovery.org.nz/)
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on March 22, 2012, 05:15:35 AM
The case of New Zealand is more extreme than Australia, islands where birds filled niches mammals did elsewhere. I know not all Kiwis (there's an ironic term for you) are so apathetic and they try to protect what's left.
7 BILLION PEOPLE ON EARTH
Fewer than 150 KAKAPO (http://www.kakaporecovery.org.nz/)
Yes, us humans have certainly stuffed up ecologies, introducing rabbits, stoats, weasels, possums, cats, dogs, gorse etc...
Quote from: Stevil on March 22, 2012, 07:17:28 AM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on March 22, 2012, 05:15:35 AM
The case of New Zealand is more extreme than Australia, islands where birds filled niches mammals did elsewhere. I know not all Kiwis (there's an ironic term for you) are so apathetic and they try to protect what's left.
7 BILLION PEOPLE ON EARTH
Fewer than 150 KAKAPO (http://www.kakaporecovery.org.nz/)
Yes, us humans have certainly stuffed up ecologies, introducing rabbits, stoats, weasels, possums, cats, dogs, gorse etc...
I'm all for protectinv ecosystems. Or at least not stomping on them. There is simply no reason for so many people to exist on a single planet. I wish people were smarter about reproducing. :(