Hebrew Atheist Billboard Finds a New Home (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/07/hebrew-atheist-billboard-finds-a-new-home/)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2012%2F03%2F08%2Fnyregion%2Fcityroom-billboard2%2Fcityroom-billboard2-blog480.jpg&hash=549923cb473cf347199d04df1bc6d045ad7680b9)
QuoteThis morning, the future of the Hebrew billboard reaching out to closeted atheists in the Orthodox Jewish community was uncertain, but it looks like American Atheists found a home for it...
...The atheists had to settle for placing the billboard above the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway near Meeker Avenue — about a mile and a half north of the Hasidic enclave in South Williamsburg...
Militant atheism at its most militant! Let's put up a sign!
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2012, 07:54:20 AM
Hebrew Atheist Billboard Finds a New Home (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/07/hebrew-atheist-billboard-finds-a-new-home/)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2012%2F03%2F08%2Fnyregion%2Fcityroom-billboard2%2Fcityroom-billboard2-blog480.jpg&hash=549923cb473cf347199d04df1bc6d045ad7680b9)
QuoteThis morning, the future of the Hebrew billboard reaching out to closeted atheists in the Orthodox Jewish community was uncertain, but it looks like American Atheists found a home for it...
...The atheists had to settle for placing the billboard above the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway near Meeker Avenue — about a mile and a half north of the Hasidic enclave in South Williamsburg...
Militant atheism at its most militant! Let's put up a sign!
*snerk*
We're such a threat, aren't we? :D
Quote from: Ali on March 09, 2012, 04:39:37 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2012, 07:54:20 AM
Hebrew Atheist Billboard Finds a New Home (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/07/hebrew-atheist-billboard-finds-a-new-home/)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgraphics8.nytimes.com%2Fimages%2F2012%2F03%2F08%2Fnyregion%2Fcityroom-billboard2%2Fcityroom-billboard2-blog480.jpg&hash=549923cb473cf347199d04df1bc6d045ad7680b9)
QuoteThis morning, the future of the Hebrew billboard reaching out to closeted atheists in the Orthodox Jewish community was uncertain, but it looks like American Atheists found a home for it...
...The atheists had to settle for placing the billboard above the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway near Meeker Avenue — about a mile and a half north of the Hasidic enclave in South Williamsburg...
Militant atheism at its most militant! Let's put up a sign!
*snerk*
We're such a threat, aren't we? :D
I know! Soon we'll be getting commercials to spread our filthy nazi communist ways. ::)
This is pretty daring, considering freedom of speech is only for old white dudes and Christians.
I just find it weird that they called it "inappropriate". Offensive? Maybe. Inappropriate? It's a billboard on the highway! It has words on it! How is that inappropriate?
People should learn the difference between "I don't like this" or "I find this offensive" and "this is actually inappropriate based on context".
Well, the Jews are being specifically included in, here - but for some reason they don't like it. ;D
Funny enough, the billboard in Arabic that went up in Patterson, New Jersey got a few people grumbling, but no campaign to tear it down or move it.
Quote from: Firebird on March 10, 2012, 06:05:22 PM
Funny enough, the billboard in Arabic that went up in Patterson, New Jersey got a few people grumbling, but no campaign to tear it down or move it.
Was it a similar atheist message?
Same exact message:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/01/atheist-group-targets-muslims-jews-with-myth-billboards-in-arabic-and-hebrew/
Quote from: Firebird on March 10, 2012, 06:37:07 PM
Same exact message:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/01/atheist-group-targets-muslims-jews-with-myth-billboards-in-arabic-and-hebrew/
Cheers.
Don't mess with the jews. They pull the holocaust card as much as the blacks do with the slave one. ::)
I like the billboard. So many jewish friends are religious because they were raised they way, and even if they aren't hard core, they feel they'll 'betray' their family if they don't do religious things, like being kosher, etc.
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2012, 07:54:20 AM
Militant atheism at its most militant! Let's put up a sign!
No, the most militant is confronting the religious in live media debates.
...That, or launching a swarm of Asmothralls at them.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 12, 2012, 07:31:12 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2012, 07:54:20 AM
Militant atheism at its most militant! Let's put up a sign!
No, the most militant is confronting the religious in live media debates.
...That, or launching a swarm of Asmothralls at them.
I think the most violent act of militant atheism is the verbal abuse of fables and myths people want/think/are forced to believe.... although Asmothralls is always a good back-up plan.
;)
it's a nice poster, it would certainly make me smile every time I saw it if I lived in Brooklyn
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 12, 2012, 05:06:30 AM
Don't mess with the jews. They pull the holocaust card as much as the blacks do with the slave one. ::)
Except Holocaust survivors, in some cases, are still living in today's society. And remarkably, having two Jewish best friends neither one of them has ever brought up the Holocaust in a 'woe is me' context. As it is though, this is another racially insensitive non-sequitor from you. Quelle Surprise!
Exactly how many times does someone need to tread the line between stating an opinion and acting like a bigot before a mod steps in to say that this kind of hateful speech is not okay?
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 13, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Exactly how many times does someone need to tread the line between stating an opinion and acting like a bigot before a mod steps in to say that this kind of hateful speech is not okay?
Not sure.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 13, 2012, 05:49:17 PM
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 13, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Exactly how many times does someone need to tread the line between stating an opinion and acting like a bigot before a mod steps in to say that this kind of hateful speech is not okay?
Not sure.
Not a mod, so don't know, and they are all different. However, I see no problem with walking the line indefinitely as long as you do not cross it more than on rare occasion.
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 13, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 12, 2012, 05:06:30 AM
Don't mess with the jews. They pull the holocaust card as much as the blacks do with the slave one. ::)
Except Holocaust survivors, in some cases, are still living in today's society. And remarkably, having two Jewish best friends neither one of them has ever brought up the Holocaust in a 'woe is me' context. As it is though, this is another racially insensitive non-sequitor from you. Quelle Surprise!
Exactly how many times does someone need to tread the line between stating an opinion and acting like a bigot before a mod steps in to say that this kind of hateful speech is not okay?
Moding is a fine line. It is always a great help if members use the report button. Sweetdeath is thoughtless and immature at times. I think your illustration of your friends is better than a straight warning. Having worked at the Holocaust centre I felt her comments were mostly thoughtless and ignorant.
I think that if some people didn't insist on using holocaust as their martyr card, other people would be less inclined to mock it and them for using it in that manner.
Personally, I wouldn't take the experiences of a concentration camp survivor too lightly in a conversation, but when people start playing the victim card because a great grandfather they never knew died in the name of a popularly disliked cause, they are fair game in my book.
Let the survivors and those close to them who might be interested keep the memory alive - let the rest of us put it in a history book and move on.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 07:38:50 PM
I think that if some people didn't insist on using holocaust as their martyr card, other people would be less inclined to mock it and them for using it in that manner.
Personally, I wouldn't take the experiences of a concentration camp survivor too lightly in a conversation, but when people start playing the victim card because a great grandfather they never knew died in the name of a popularly disliked cause, they are fair game in my book.
Let the survivors and those close to them who might be interested keep the memory alive - let the rest of us put it in a history book and move on.
Wow.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 07:38:50 PM
I think that if some people didn't insist on using holocaust as their martyr card, other people would be less inclined to mock it and them for using it in that manner.
Personally, I wouldn't take the experiences of a concentration camp survivor too lightly in a conversation, but when people start playing the victim card because a great grandfather they never knew died in the name of a popularly disliked cause, they are fair game in my book.
Let the survivors and those close to them who might be interested keep the memory alive - let the rest of us put it in a history book and move on.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana) That's not to say there are not unscrupulous Jews who will play the 'Holocaust card', but to say 'all' or 'none' is equally disingenuous. However it is a fact that the Jewish people/race have been subject to continuous persecution for millennia.
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 07:55:55 PM
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana)
...while those who can are just likely to.
Quotebut to say 'all' or 'none' is equally disingenuous.
Of course. Those are loosely-defined amounts.
Quote
However it is a fact that the Jewish people/race have been subject to continuous persecution for millennia.
Yes, right behind gays and the deviant from whatever is the dominant religion in a given society on the persecution scale, I suspect.
I think it is well within my right not to give a damn about how jews - or any ethnic, religious or other groups have been treated in the past. My reality is today. Yes, it came from before and will disappear into after, but by virtue of immediacy, it is of highest priority. By virtue of past being past, it is of the lowest priority as we have yet to disover a way to bring back yesterday.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 08:07:41 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 07:55:55 PM
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" - George Santayana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Santayana)
...while those who can are just likely to.
Quotebut to say 'all' or 'none' is equally disingenuous.
Of course. Those are loosely-defined amounts.
Quote
However it is a fact that the Jewish people/race have been subject to continuous persecution for millennia.
Yes, right behind gays and the deviant from whatever is the dominant religion in a given society on the persecution scale, I suspect.
I think it is well within my right not to give a damn about how jews - or any ethnic, religious or other groups have been treated in the past. My reality is today. Yes, it came from before and will disappear into after, but by virtue of immediacy, it is of highest priority. By virtue of past being past, it is of the lowest priority as we have yet to disover a way to bring back yesterday.
What you choose to do, or not do, is up to you. But I have discovered that experience is usually very expensive while history is free. I personally think it's very useful to be able to learn from previous mistakes. Effectively history is recorded experience, an almost priceless commodity.
I'm not even remotely Jewish, but the holocaust is definitely something worth keeping in mind.
When I did my history undergrad I did a senior year seminar course on the Holocaust. Four solid months of studying the Holocaust from every angle. It honestly changed me and it is a large part of the reason that I became an atheist. Forgetting or belittling our ability as humans for true inhumanity doesn't do any of us any good, I don't think. I can definitely see why something of that magnitude can scar a collective identity.
I mean, Geez, Westerners starting taking over North America over 500 years ago, but if I was Aboriginal, I think I'd still be pissed. People care about who they are and where they came from (and what people did to their relatives).
Edit: I also agree, you aren't obligated to give a damn about anything. But I wouldn't chose to live my life as though the world started when I was born and will end when I die. But that's just me.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 13, 2012, 08:15:41 PM
I'm not even remotely Jewish, but the holocaust is definitely something worth keeping in mind.
When I did my history undergrad I did a senior year seminar course on the Holocaust. Four solid months of studying the Holocaust from every angle. It honestly changed me and it is a large part of the reason that I became an atheist. Forgetting or belittling our ability as humans for true inhumanity doesn't do any of us any good, I don't think. I can definitely see why something of that magnitude can scar a collective identity.
I mean, Geez, Westerners starting taking over North America over 500 years ago, but if I was Aboriginal, I think I'd still be pissed. People care about who they are and where they came from (and what people did to their relatives).
Because what can be done to ones relatives can possibly be done to one.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 08:07:41 PM
I think it is well within my right not to give a damn about how jews - or any ethnic, religious or other groups have been treated in the past.
Of course...unless it was your relatives or people of same thought.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 13, 2012, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 08:07:41 PM
I think it is well within my right not to give a damn about how jews - or any ethnic, religious or other groups have been treated in the past.
Of course...unless it was your relatives or people of same thought.
Why are you presuming Asmo's position? Why don't you ask him how he would feel?
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 08:32:08 PM
Why are you presuming Asmo's position? Why don't you ask him how he would feel?
I apologize for presuming a position, Tank.
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 08:21:53 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 13, 2012, 08:15:41 PM
I'm not even remotely Jewish, but the holocaust is definitely something worth keeping in mind.
When I did my history undergrad I did a senior year seminar course on the Holocaust. Four solid months of studying the Holocaust from every angle. It honestly changed me and it is a large part of the reason that I became an atheist. Forgetting or belittling our ability as humans for true inhumanity doesn't do any of us any good, I don't think. I can definitely see why something of that magnitude can scar a collective identity.
I mean, Geez, Westerners starting taking over North America over 500 years ago, but if I was Aboriginal, I think I'd still be pissed. People care about who they are and where they came from (and what people did to their relatives).
Because what can be done to ones relatives can possibly be done to one.
Exactly, Canada (and I'm sure the US, though I'm not as familiar) has a very ugly tradition of letting Native groups down. The Inuit have (I think) the highest suicide rates in the world and addiction in their communities runs rampant. They've been royally fucked over as a people and it continues to this day. Not to mention the countless other aboriginal groups across Canada.
But it's really, really easy to not care or not notice if you're white and have never looked into the history and have never set foot on a Reserve.
What would a Happy Atheist billboard look like? It would need to be civil and sensitive, and also convey some sense of contentment, I would think.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
What would a Happy Atheist billboard look like? It would need to be civil and sensitive, and also convey some sense of contentment, I would think.
Good question. I'd go for.
Tea, coffee or a beer with your crumpet?
Happy Atheists don't bite ;D
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 09:51:28 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
What would a Happy Atheist billboard look like? It would need to be civil and sensitive, and also convey some sense of contentment, I would think.
Good question. I'd go for.
Tea, coffee or a beer with your crumpet?
Happy Atheists don't bite ;D
What about "It's OK to question your faith. Give us a call when you are ready to talk." A photo of Rodin's Thinker could be included.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2012, 09:55:54 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 09:51:28 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
What would a Happy Atheist billboard look like? It would need to be civil and sensitive, and also convey some sense of contentment, I would think.
Good question. I'd go for.
Tea, coffee or a beer with your crumpet?
Happy Atheists don't bite ;D
What about "It's OK to question your faith. Give us a call when you are ready to talk." A photo of Rodin's Thinker could be included.
Too challenging. In general people have to classify somebody as a friend (or at least neutral) before they will react positively to any message they may wish to transmit. The statement "question your faith" is pretty aggressive and adversarial to the majority of believers.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 13, 2012, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 08:07:41 PM
I think it is well within my right not to give a damn about how jews - or any ethnic, religious or other groups have been treated in the past.
Of course...unless it was your relatives or people of same thought.
I have some family who died in WW2 and other conflicts. I'm sure some people I would have liked met a less than pleasant demise in many different ways. But I didn't know those people, and I can not really know what I have "lost" in that conflict, because I have no way of knowing what the world today would be like if it never happened.
Are there lessons worth learning in events like wars, ethnic cleansing, crusades and the like? Sure. But am I going to join a pity party for the victims of a conflict decades since resolved..? No. Life goes on, and the past is in the past.
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2012, 09:55:54 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 09:51:28 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on March 13, 2012, 09:48:09 PM
What would a Happy Atheist billboard look like? It would need to be civil and sensitive, and also convey some sense of contentment, I would think.
Good question. I'd go for.
Tea, coffee or a beer with your crumpet?
Happy Atheists don't bite ;D
What about "It's OK to question your faith. Give us a call when you are ready to talk." A photo of Rodin's Thinker could be included.
Too challenging. In general people have to classify somebody as a friend (or at least neutral) before they will react positively to any message they may wish to transmit. The statement "question your faith" is pretty aggressive and adversarial to the majority of believers.
Man, it's hard to be a nice atheist. Putting on your hat for awhile, I find it quite challenging.
Quote from: Tank on March 13, 2012, 07:20:25 PM
Quote from: philosoraptor on March 13, 2012, 05:42:45 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 12, 2012, 05:06:30 AM
Don't mess with the jews. They pull the holocaust card as much as the blacks do with the slave one. ::)
Except Holocaust survivors, in some cases, are still living in today's society. And remarkably, having two Jewish best friends neither one of them has ever brought up the Holocaust in a 'woe is me' context. As it is though, this is another racially insensitive non-sequitor from you. Quelle Surprise!
Exactly how many times does someone need to tread the line between stating an opinion and acting like a bigot before a mod steps in to say that this kind of hateful speech is not okay?
Moding is a fine line. It is always a great help if members use the report button. Sweetdeath is thoughtless and immature at times. I think your illustration of your friends is better than a straight warning. Having worked at the Holocaust centre I felt her comments were mostly thoughtless and ignorant.
I know, and I don't envy you for doing it. My point though is that sweetdeath is pretty consistent with the nasty sentiments about people of other races (I'm still reeling over blacks and Hispanics being described as 'infestations'), sexual orientations, marital status, etc... and then conveniently has nothing to say when anyone brings up how offensive it is. If she isn't a racist, she does a damn good impression of one. On top of being a coward who can't own the things she says. :-\
I suppose I really should word things better. I don't come on HAF as much at the moment because i'm busy job hunting and such. I don't appreciate being called a coward. I'm not running from anything.
I apologize if you think my words are too harsh .
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 14, 2012, 03:16:57 AM
I suppose I really should word things better. I don't come on HAF as much at the moment because i'm busy job hunting and such. I don't appreciate being called a coward. I'm not running from anything.
I apologize if you think my words are too harsh .
You really crossed the line with the holocaust/slave comment. I may be atheist, but I'm also one of those jews who lost family in the holocaust, and I've never used that as an excuse for anything. How would you feel if I accused you, as a lesbian, of using the holocaust card? A lot of gay people were murdered then too, along with POW's, Romas, people who were disabled, etc... I am really disturbed by some of the stuff you've posted here and ask that you kindly keep such thoughts to yourself.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 11:36:42 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on March 13, 2012, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on March 13, 2012, 08:07:41 PM
I think it is well within my right not to give a damn about how jews - or any ethnic, religious or other groups have been treated in the past.
Of course...unless it was your relatives or people of same thought.
I have some family who died in WW2 and other conflicts. I'm sure some people I would have liked met a less than pleasant demise in many different ways. But I didn't know those people, and I can not really know what I have "lost" in that conflict, because I have no way of knowing what the world today would be like if it never happened.
Are there lessons worth learning in events like wars, ethnic cleansing, crusades and the like? Sure. But am I going to join a pity party for the victims of a conflict decades since resolved..? No. Life goes on, and the past is in the past.
I think this is a dangerous mentality too, frankly. While it may be unthinkable now, it's not impossible to imagine a society where our fellow atheists are persecuted for our beliefs. How would we recognize the signs without learning about the past and what happened then? It's not about a "pity party". It's honoring them, giving some meaning to their lives, learning about what they endured to ensure it does not happen again. Honoring those people and making sure they're not forgotten is extremely important if we're going to continue to improve and advance as a society.
Alright, I'm a little puzzled here. Where in my original statement did I saw the holocaust was not a big deal -- or slavery? I feel like you're taking what i said totally out of context.
I never said those events were not said. Every race and gender has been persecuted and enslaved at some point in history unfortunately. It's really sad.
I only have a problem with 20 something year olds using those cards as an excuse to act a certain way.
I actually took a field trip in 9th grade to the Jewish American museum and was quite touched at the end when I met an 80 something year old survivor.
I don't understand what disturbing things you think I am saying, but i am clarifying right now what i am trying to say. thanks. I don't appreciate getting ganged up on for something misunderstood entirely. :-\
Quote from: Firebird on March 14, 2012, 03:57:45 AM
I think this is a dangerous mentality too, frankly. While it may be unthinkable now, it's not impossible to imagine a society where our fellow atheists are persecuted for our beliefs.
No, it is not hard to imagine at all.
QuoteHow would we recognize the signs without learning about the past and what happened then?
By comparing treatment of different groups by said society. If one stands out as being treated differently to all the others, well, there's your first warning sign. That said, I am not saying we can not learn from the past - just that, in my very subjective opinion, far too many people should let it go and look forward, as opposed to dwell on it for fear of repeating it in terms of magnitude, not of polar opposites. It's not "fuck history", it's "prioritize now and tomorrow over yesterday".
QuoteIt's not about a "pity party"
...And when it is not, I am open to a serious discussion of the subject, kind of like the one we are having now. But if someone decides to compare something to the holocaust, that something has to be at least close to genocide - otherwise, my martyr-warning lights go off like popcorn in the microwave oven.
Quote
It's honoring them, giving some meaning to their lives, learning about what they endured to ensure it does not happen again. Honoring those people and making sure they're not forgotten is extremely important if we're going to continue to improve and advance as a society.
I'm sorry if it sounds brutal, but it's not my job to give someone's life - or death - a meaning. My job is giving my own life a meaning, so that perhaps others will find it meaningful as well. That said...
I've talked to holocaust survivors (Well... Drop the last s, really), and listened to the stories of it all with interest, without insulting the person in question even once or being incredibly insensitive towards her experiences. However, when someone born in the seventies - long after WW2 - starts using phrases like "It's like new holocaust" or in other ways using it to describe being wronged in a non-life, freedom and basic human dignity depriving way, especially if the action is aimed at everyone and not a single group within society (For instance, making infant circumision illegal here in Norway - in debates, the holocaust card was played several times, although every single person in the country would be equal under that law, be it the majority, jew, muslim or a resident Swede), then I think that individual is using the events of the past in all the wrong ways and for all the wrong reasons. In fact, were I a holocaust survivor, I'd probably be deeply offended by it, as when used enough in this fashion, the edge of the "real" holocaust card is inevitably dulled.
That was a mother of a sentence up there... Hope it's coherent.
It was quite coherent, and in my opinion spot on.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 14, 2012, 07:23:21 AM
Alright, I'm a little puzzled here. Where in my original statement did I saw the holocaust was not a big deal -- or slavery? I feel like you're taking what i said totally out of context.
I never said those events were not said. Every race and gender has been persecuted and enslaved at some point in history unfortunately. It's really sad.
I only have a problem with 20 something year olds using those cards as an excuse to act a certain way.
I actually took a field trip in 9th grade to the Jewish American museum and was quite touched at the end when I met an 80 something year old survivor.
I don't understand what disturbing things you think I am saying, but i am clarifying right now what i am trying to say. thanks. I don't appreciate getting ganged up on for something misunderstood entirely. :-\
Sweetdeath
When communicating the obligation of accuracy starts with the person who starts a comment; in this case you. You made some statements that were blatantly racist. It is quite unreasonable of you not to expect these to be commented on. You can't make a blatantly racist statement and then expect no comment. So then you say 'that's no what I meant' and get the hump about people getting pissed off with what you
did write. People read what you write, they don't know what you're thinking. You really do need to be more careful what you write in the first place if you are to avoid being misunderstood.
Chris
The lessons that need to be learned from the holocaust have nothing to do with Jews per se. To learn from the horrific events we need to study the actions of the Nazi command. It was no more atrocious than what is happening in may places today - it was just much more successful.
Seems to me like it's not the Jews themselves that are playing 'the holocaust card' - more that it is used as a political weapon by the militant (and not so militant) left.
Mourn, remember and move on.
Once again, Asmos approach is characteristically unPC but nonetheless to the point.
I feel a bit frustrated. What Asmo says makes a lot of sense.
I suppose I have a hard time conveying my exact feelings onto words in this forum. It seems to get jumbled. I usually reply from my smartphone around friends, and even when I am alone, i have a hard time writing a lot because i can't think of exactly how to do it. The way i speak and am irl are different almost than how i reply in this forum. Not that i not being, but i almost feel nervous replying in some threads.
I have been misunderstood before. It's no one's fault really but my own, but i really want to state that just because i wrote that sentence doesn't mean i was saying "ah bleh, the holocaust wasn't a big deal, whatever."
In the future, i will think harder before pressing submit, or just try to elaborate more. I kind of feel like Asmo sometimes where i just 'don't care' but i am not even a cold person irl, I am just me. I have always had a hard time exactly expressing what my mind is thinking.
I have been on this forum for a while now, and i really haven't felt this way til now. I can be called silly and even immature.. Sure--- but racist or heartless or cold-- I am not those things. I understand my opinion can differ a lot from others and even seem like i seriously make posts because i don't give a shit, but it's not the case.
I almost feel as if i am not expected to make such weird statements. I don't mind trying harder to get my point across, i just honestly feel my original post wouldn't cause such a stir. I certainly wasn't intending to offend anyone.
It's also just easier to say things a loud or in my head. The way i say them seem less harsh and more joking than reading emotionless sounding words on a forum thread.
Anyway, I am seriously trying to explain myself. I don't want to have a reputation...
I don't mind being someone i am, but being cold and racist isn't me. I will try harder, Tank. Even if that means i'll post a lot less from now on.
Thing is, when you make short and highly insensitive replies about what many people cconsider a touchy subject, you sort of have to be prepared to engage those who take offence and defend your views, which usually means presenting them more fully and explaining what drives you to think the way you do.
Pretty muh everything can be misinterpreted, especially when people, consciously or otherwise, look for the worst of meanings your words can have. That is part of the reason why I prefer not to write between the lines more than I have to when discussing volatile issues and as a result of that, political correctness usually goes out of the window.
I sort of came to the rescue when you got attacked by implication for the comment that sparked the current debate because I did not interprete your comment as necessarilly racist, anti-semite or whatever some might call it, so I continued what I assumed to be your line of thought by equating it to my own and defending it with what appears to be a moderate to good degree of success.
And therein lies today's lesson: If you hold a controversial opinion and want to share it with others, you have to be prepared to constructively defend it.
Thanks Asmo. I really do appreciate it. You coming to my rescue? Now you're going to make a lot of people jealous! I don't want to get death threats! :(
But you're absolutely right. I can't make such short statements like those. I will think more clearly about what I write and be prepared to defend my position if I have to. I don't mind doing such things. It's all about being fair to everyone on this forum. I'll try harder from now on. I'm at a friend's at the moment, so i have access to a laptop, there for i can type at least four to five times faster than on my little android phone. (seriously, it hurts my fingers after a while.)
Anyway, i will definitely take everyone's words to heart and become better at expressing myself in a way that can be understood a lot more clearly. Thanks! :D
And with that the storm in this particular glass of water has abbated.
So hebrew atheistic billboard? How about that!
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 14, 2012, 11:32:49 AM
And with that the storm in this particular glass of water has abbated.
So hebrew atheistic billboard? How about that!
I actually do think the billboard is really cool! I don't go into brooklyn often, but i wouldn't mind seeing that while walking about.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 14, 2012, 08:24:32 AM
Quote from: Firebird on March 14, 2012, 03:57:45 AM
I think this is a dangerous mentality too, frankly. While it may be unthinkable now, it's not impossible to imagine a society where our fellow atheists are persecuted for our beliefs.
No, it is not hard to imagine at all.
QuoteHow would we recognize the signs without learning about the past and what happened then?
By comparing treatment of different groups by said society. If one stands out as being treated differently to all the others, well, there's your first warning sign. That said, I am not saying we can not learn from the past - just that, in my very subjective opinion, far too many people should let it go and look forward, as opposed to dwell on it for fear of repeating it in terms of magnitude, not of polar opposites. It's not "fuck history", it's "prioritize now and tomorrow over yesterday".
QuoteIt's not about a "pity party"
...And when it is not, I am open to a serious discussion of the subject, kind of like the one we are having now. But if someone decides to compare something to the holocaust, that something has to be at least close to genocide - otherwise, my martyr-warning lights go off like popcorn in the microwave oven.
Quote
It's honoring them, giving some meaning to their lives, learning about what they endured to ensure it does not happen again. Honoring those people and making sure they're not forgotten is extremely important if we're going to continue to improve and advance as a society.
I'm sorry if it sounds brutal, but it's not my job to give someone's life - or death - a meaning. My job is giving my own life a meaning, so that perhaps others will find it meaningful as well. That said...
I've talked to holocaust survivors (Well... Drop the last s, really), and listened to the stories of it all with interest, without insulting the person in question even once or being incredibly insensitive towards her experiences. However, when someone born in the seventies - long after WW2 - starts using phrases like "It's like new holocaust" or in other ways using it to describe being wronged in a non-life, freedom and basic human dignity depriving way, especially if the action is aimed at everyone and not a single group within society (For instance, making infant circumision illegal here in Norway - in debates, the holocaust card was played several times, although every single person in the country would be equal under that law, be it the majority, jew, muslim or a resident Swede), then I think that individual is using the events of the past in all the wrong ways and for all the wrong reasons. In fact, were I a holocaust survivor, I'd probably be deeply offended by it, as when used enough in this fashion, the edge of the "real" holocaust card is inevitably dulled.
That was a mother of a sentence up there... Hope it's coherent.
That makes sense. I do agree that we should not trivialize such things, which I believe is what you were saying. A good analogy is all the people who say "Obama is Hitler", or comparing a tax plan to Nazi Germany's plan to wipe out a populace. It's often a false analogy. So I agree with you there.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 14, 2012, 11:09:02 AM
And therein lies today's lesson: If you hold a controversial opinion and want to share it with others, you have to be prepared to constructively defend it.
This, pretty much. Even if someone admitted to being blatantly racist/bigoted, I'd still be interested in hearing their input so long as they could construct an argument that wasn't just a string of spammy racist words. I know that's not really the policy here, as I think there are rules on the forum against hate speech and that kind of thing, but that'd be my feelings on it. I'm pretty pro-free speech.
Quote from: Firebird on March 14, 2012, 02:39:08 PM
That makes sense. I do agree that we should not trivialize such things, which I believe is what you were saying. A good analogy is all the people who say "Obama is Hitler", or comparing a tax plan to Nazi Germany's plan to wipe out a populace. It's often a false analogy. So I agree with you there.
Yes, it is what I am saying.
Both Hitler and holoaust are valid cards to play - when they are called for. It's not that they ARE being used, it's HOW.
In fact, when the president of Iran goes out and denies that holocaust took place in the first place, he is doing a biger service to keeping the right memories alive (By unintentionally raising awareness) than some people who try to use it to their advantage (By re-defining the meaning of the word in what usually is a highly trivializing way)
Quote from: Asmodean on March 14, 2012, 08:16:11 PM
Yes, it is what I am saying.
Both Hitler and holoaust are valid cards to play - when they are called for. It's not that they ARE being used, it's HOW.
In fact, when the president of Iran goes out and denies that holocaust took place in the first place, he is doing a biger service to keeping the right memories alive (By unintentionally raising awareness) than some people who try to use it to their advantage (By re-defining the meaning of the word in what usually is a highly trivializing way)
Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?
Quote from: Tom62 on March 15, 2012, 05:27:46 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on March 14, 2012, 08:16:11 PM
Yes, it is what I am saying.
Both Hitler and holoaust are valid cards to play - when they are called for. It's not that they ARE being used, it's HOW.
In fact, when the president of Iran goes out and denies that holocaust took place in the first place, he is doing a biger service to keeping the right memories alive (By unintentionally raising awareness) than some people who try to use it to their advantage (By re-defining the meaning of the word in what usually is a highly trivializing way)
Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?
That's an interesting point. But one has to consider that Holocaust denial is a political position itself, it's not a valid reflection of the 'truth' and if people can be allowed to create their own truth, irrespective of reality, then people can justify anything they want.
Quote from: Tank on March 15, 2012, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 15, 2012, 05:27:46 AM
Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?
That's an interesting point. But one has to consider that Holocaust denial is a political position itself, it's not a valid reflection of the 'truth' and if people can be allowed to create their own truth, irrespective of reality, then people can justify anything they want.
I fully agree with you. But, it is very hard to get to know the "real" truth, when facts are obscured, hidden or denied by "the powers that be". It also raises the big question in how far we are willing to protect the freedom of speech.
Quote from: Tom62 on March 15, 2012, 09:28:45 PM
Quote from: Tank on March 15, 2012, 07:47:18 AM
Quote from: Tom62 on March 15, 2012, 05:27:46 AM
Interesting thoughts. I guess that the opposite is also true. By forbidding the denial of the holocaust, one creates a kind of dogma, that causes people to think that the holocaust didn't happen. Why would you believe that something must be true or false, when this is forced upon you by politicians who are known to be flexible with the truth anyway?
That's an interesting point. But one has to consider that Holocaust denial is a political position itself, it's not a valid reflection of the 'truth' and if people can be allowed to create their own truth, irrespective of reality, then people can justify anything they want.
I fully agree with you. But, it is very hard to get to know the "real" truth, when facts are obscured, hidden or denied by "the powers that be". It also raises the big question in how far we are willing to protect the freedom of speech.
Yeah, that's the major difference with the US and Europe as far as speech goes. Holocaust denial is not a crime here, nor is saying someone is a "slut" like Rush Limbaugh recently did, or most other speech, no matter how distasteful or obviously untrue. The only exceptions include yelling "fire" in a theater (ie, endangering the public through your speech) or making any kind of threat against the president, even a BS one online.
And frankly, I'm ok with that. It's tough to tolerate at times, but I think it does make us a stronger country overall.