I think you're wrong Arian, but welcome to the forum anyway. I'll look forward to reading your posts. As a slight detour, many biblical scholars would even question if there's a 'God of the Bible'. The earliest parts of the Bible were most probably written by people who worshipped El (the chief Canaanite god), who's a completely different god to Yahweh (the god most associated with the Bible). Yahweh was adopted into the Israelite pantheon at a later date. But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin. If you think he's 'God' and 'our creator' you're not an atheist, you're a Christian or a Jew.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:20:49 PM
LOL A Christian Atheist!
An Atheist is a person whom lacks a belief in any god.
If you don't classify YHWH as a god then I guess you can believe in YHWH and still be an atheist.
Good on ya!
I understand what you're saying, and it is a new look at GOD the great 'I Am', our Creator. Theism is what 'we' know of god and gods, and NOT as GOD (with no name) REVEALS Himself to us by. I have not yet heard any other Christian who understands this either.
As I said, 'Tillich' did a very good job in defining the true concept of GOD through his philosophy, but GOD is not revealed only through philosophy, but also through science, by watching and observing people and our understanding of the world around us. What and why people believe what they believe will reveal a lot about our Creator GOD YHWH as you said (not His name, but a reference to).
The word 'theism' was defined by the pagan-god worshiping people of that time, and was simply accepted in todays pagan version of (watered down) Christianity. Yes todays Christians are Theists, who believe in one or three, or one of them gods.
We cannot 'define God' or liken Him to something or someone 'we' are willing to accept, for we are the created. We are to search
'He who Is', or
'I Am' out, and He will reveal Himself to us. The only limits are our true desire to 'know' Him.
As soon as we define our beliefs as 'atheist/theist', we have closed the door to this knowledge of Truth.
Thanks.
(Edited only to change typo in thread title. OP remains as posted. -- Recusant)
Quote from: Crow on January 25, 2012, 09:51:15 PM
Welcome, hope you have some fun debating people on religion but I don't think I will be participating.
Hello Crow, and thank you.
You will not participate on religious debates? You have this quote in the bottom of your box:
quote"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- Siddhārtha GautamaI agree with this whole heartedly, but how do
you understand the bolded part my friend?
I've read your posts so far, arian, and they sound remarkably like preaching to me.
Paul Tillich was a Christian, by the way, and the god he wrote about was the Christian god.
Quote from: arian on January 25, 2012, 11:23:57 PM
Quote from: Crow on January 25, 2012, 09:51:15 PM
Welcome, hope you have some fun debating people on religion but I don't think I will be participating.
Hello Crow, and thank you.
You will not participate on religious debates? You have this quote in the bottom of your box:
quote
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions simply because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
- Siddhārtha Gautama
I agree with this whole heartedly, but how do you understand the bolded part my friend?
Nothing personal I could tell from your introduction you would be into that area of the forum. As of late talk about religion is starting to bore me senseless so I rarely participate in those discussions at the moment.
Arian, I don't entirely understand your argument. Are you saying that your God is not a "god"*, but something else, which is what makes you an atheist?
*For the sake of argument, we'll define "god" as some sort of Supreme Being.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 25, 2012, 10:16:10 PM
I think you're wrong Arian, but welcome to the forum anyway. I'll look forward to reading your posts. As a slight detour, many biblical scholars would even question if there's a 'God of the Bible'. The earliest parts of the Bible were most probably written by people who worshipped El (the chief Canaanite god), who's a completely different god to Yahweh (the god most associated with the Bible). Yahweh was adopted into the Israelite pantheon at a later date. But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin. If you think he's 'God' and 'our creator' you're not an atheist, you're a Christian or a Jew.
Hello 'Too Few Lions', and I agree, ... there are too few lions IMO also. :)
You actually agreed to my post on the term
'Theism' when you said:
"But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin." because our Creator is actually very different than those gods you mentioned, that is my whole point. Theism includes the 'Trinity gods, Zeus, Baal and Odin, Santa Claus', all made-up gods, but not
'I Am' as defined by the Prophets and Jesus in the Bible.
Saying
'I am an atheist', does not exclude us from learning and seeking the truth, or keeping some books and burning others, listening to some people and hating others, ... or does it? (referring to the person who left this forum, 'Lying For Jesus' ... I believe his name was) that's the 'Constantine Churches' job and those Christian religions who still follow in their footsteps. Have we not 'evolved' beyond such caveman like behaviors? Why, didn't believing in the Big-bang evolution theory, (modern science, quantum physics, rational thought, education) teach us anything?
If theist is believing in god or gods, then don't you think 'atheists' should know which god or gods they 'don't believe' in? Placing Bible-God into Theism does not make 'I Am' GOD to be one amongst them, no matter how the theistic/atheistic definition define Him. The Bible (Word of God) is the one who defines Bible-God, our Creator, don't you agree?
Shouldn't we all (man kind in general) identify GOD first before we choose to believe or not to believe in Him, or just throw Him amongst one of
'those theistic gods'?
Could be interesting. Waiting for something substantial before I post.
I propose naming this god "SAM"
By the way, are we now to capitalise all the letters, not just the first one?
Quote from: Recusant on January 25, 2012, 11:39:51 PM
I've read your posts so far, arian, and they sound remarkably like preaching to me.
Paul Tillich was a Christian, by the way.
Yes, Tillich was a Christian, but not understood by Christians because his philosophy did not coincide with todays version Christianity, especially their version of 'GOD'. If I say I do not believe in the Trinity Gods, I too am labeled as a 'heretic'.
The 'meaning'
Christ-like was changed into a name 'Christian' as defined by Constantine, which in its reality opposed those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings.
"You cannot serve two masters, ... you will cling to the one and despise the other" and Constantine is well documented in trying to serve both, the gods found in the term theism, and Christianity's One True God "I Am".
Sorry if my posts sound like preaching, rather than simply debating and hopefully 'teaching'. I have learned a great deal from 'atheists', they seem to have more of an open mind to new ideas, ... well not all of them of course, just as not ALL Christians have a closed mind either.
Oh, ... and I agree that defining 'atheism' does belong on the 'Religion' section,
thank you.
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 12:20:49 AM
You actually agreed to my post on the term 'Theism' when you said: "But either way, Yahweh's a god, no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin." because our Creator is actually very different than those gods you mentioned, that is my whole point. Theism includes the 'Trinity gods, Zeus, Baal and Odin, Santa Claus', all made-up gods, but not 'I Am' as defined by the Prophets and Jesus in the Bible.
Saying 'I am an atheist', does not exclude us from learning and seeking the truth, or keeping some books and burning others, listening to some people and hating others, ... or does it? (referring to the person who left this forum, 'Lying For Jesus' ... I believe his name was) that's the 'Constantine Churches' job and those Christian religions who still follow in their footsteps. Have we not 'evolved' beyond such caveman like behaviors? Why, didn't believing in the Big-bang evolution theory, (modern science, quantum physics, rational thought, education) teach us anything?
If theist is believing in god or gods, then don't you think 'atheists' should know which god or gods they 'don't believe' in? Placing Bible-God into Theism does not make 'I Am' GOD to be one amongst them, no matter how the theistic/atheistic definition define Him. The Bible (Word of God) is the one who defines Bible-God, our Creator, don't you agree?
Shouldn't we all (man kind in general) identify GOD first before we choose to believe or not to believe in Him, or just throw Him amongst one of 'those theistic gods'?
like it or not, the god referred to by the prophets and Jesus in the Bible is Yahweh. You may want to pretend it's a different god, but I don't think that's historically accurate. Admittedly the concept of 'God' or Yahweh in early Christianity and Hellenistic Judaism was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy, and markedly different from the all-too-human deity of early Israelite religion, but the idea of god was still exactly the same as that found in non-Christian religions at the time. You can call him 'I am', 'the Creator' or whatever else you fancy, it's still Yahweh, with a little bit of El, Baal and 'God' of the philosophers thrown in for good measure.
If you believe that the god of the Bible is 'our creator', do you believe in the Biblical creation myth and fables like Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden? what parts of the Bible do you believe refer to your god and which to Yahweh?
I see no more reason to separate the Biblical god(s) out from all the other deities than I do Zeus or Baal or Odin. That's just your personal choice based on your religious beliefs, I see no logic or reason behind it.
This just seems like an extension of the age old Christian practice of claiming their god is true and somehow different from all other deities, only you're also extending it to apparently include the god worshipped by more mainstream Christians too.
I like the colour purple, but to me your views are like me saying that purple isn't really a colour, because 'colour' is a word used to refer to all the other colours, but in reality they're not really colours, as purple is the only true colour, somehow different from all the others. But I can't use that name to describe it as it's used to describe all the false colours.
The truth is that purple is still a colour no matter how much I try and claim it isn't. I'll happily toss the biblical god away on the scrap heap with Odin and Baal and a thousand other nameless gods. You're not going to be able to convince me he's anything other than what he is, a 3000 year old western semitic deity, who was given a face lift 2000 years ago.
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
Yes, Tillich was a Christian, but not understood by Christians because his philosophy did not coincide with todays version Christianity, especially their version of 'GOD'.
So, you are the first person in history who understands Tillich? All those Christians who think they understand him are mistaken, because you say so?
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
If I say I do not believe in the Trinity Gods, I too am labeled as a 'heretic'.
There are certain varieties of Christian who relish the chance to throw around the word "heretic." Still, you aren't the only Christian who believes in the "Bible-God" but does not believe in the Trinitarian version, and just because some self-righteous Christians label you as a heretic, does not mean that you aren't a Christian. You do sincerely believe that Jesus is God, right?
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
The 'meaning' Christ-like was changed into a name 'Christian' as defined by Constantine, which in its reality opposed those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings. "You cannot serve two masters, ... you will cling to the one and despise the other" and Constantine is well documented in trying to serve both, the gods found in the term theism, and Christianity's One True God "I Am".
Interesting version of history. Would you mind:
1. Citing a source for the supposed original meaning of "Christian." (It's just that when the word "Χριστιανός" is used in the Bible, it seems to be pretty clear that it's intended to mean "follower of Christ," or "one who belongs/adheres to Christ.")
2. Clarifying who are "those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings" during the time of Constantine, who were opposed by Constantine?
Seeing as Constantine didn't bother to actually get baptized until he was dying, I think that one might legitimately question whether he was serving anything or anyone but his self-interest at any time in his life. That would be pure speculation though, just as your version of Constantine's inner life is.
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
Sorry if my posts sound like preaching, rather than simply debating and hopefully 'teaching'. I have learned a great deal from 'atheists', they seem to have more of an open mind to new ideas, ... well not all of them of course, just as not ALL Christians have a closed mind either.
Oh, ... and I agree that defining 'atheism' does belong on the 'Religion' section,
thank you.
Teaching involves (among other things) conveying information and providing resources for learning. So far you have been putting forward your opinion and asserting various things while providing zilch in the way of resources (citations from reputable sources) to support your assertions. We've learned about your opinions, and your fatuous definition of atheism (which seems to consist of "
arian's brand of Christianity"), but beyond that, we might as well have been watching "American Idol," for all we've learned that has any value.
Quote from: Gawen on January 26, 2012, 12:41:06 AM
Could be interesting. Waiting for something substantial before I post.
I did not get an e-mail notice that someone answered my post or not. How do I set the notice?
Hello Gawen, and a pleasure to meet you.
Well, ... help me out here, what would you consider 'substantial'?
Would the fact that the 'Christianity' that we know of today does NOT worship, nor even acknowledge the One True God of the Bible be considered 'substantial'?
Have you read or studied the Bible, that would help our discussion.
Thank you friend
Quote from: Ali on January 25, 2012, 11:43:58 PM
Arian, I don't entirely understand your argument. Are you saying that your God is not a "god"*, but something else, which is what makes you an atheist?
*For the sake of argument, we'll define "god" as some sort of Supreme Being.
Hello Ali
Well, we really have to start from scratch, because we have been indoctrinated by the ruling worldly Church for so long (from about 325 AD) that when we say 'God' we imagine some 'Deity in a supernatural realm' am I right? Or as you said, a "Supreme Being".
God is not a 'Being', but the source of 'being'.
It is really difficult to explain, because of our indoctrinations, which has influenced every dictionary and encyclopedias interpretation of God. The 'reformation' has refocused what Christ-like should really mean, but eventually the people once again named those ideas too, Lutheran, Calvin and so on.
Just like the word 'Christian', it is understood as one amongst all those other religions, right? Well, it is. Christian has become a name, not a 'walk'.
Jesus asked us to follow HIM, to be like Him, to act like Him and to walk in His footsteps... to be 'Christ-like', not to be called 'Christian'.
To know GOD, (I capitalize so we can visualize a seperate GOD from the God and gods we have burnt in our minds through indoctrination) is to LOVE our fellow man.
Now isn't that kind of foreign to our understanding? I mean, if we want to know someone on this earth, we want to get to know 'them' and show we love 'them' the person, not love a bunch of my neighbors, ... right?
But what if that person is far away somewhere where we cannot see him/her, and tells us that "I will know if you love me or not by how much love you show others. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, love others as you love yourself, ... and I will be watching, and will know if you love me or not by those actions you do unto others."
If we become Catholic, or Mormon, or Baptist, or Lutheran, ... we cannot be a part of that Church Jesus is the Head of. We cannot serve different Kings and be a member of one kingdom, we would be called traitors, am I right?
A Start.
I still don't understand what makes your version of god (GOD) different from everyone else's. But I do like the idea of loving others as a form of worship, if I were to worship (which I don't.) Sounds peaceful.
Quote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AM
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
Yes, Tillich was a Christian, but not understood by Christians because his philosophy did not coincide with todays version Christianity, especially their version of 'GOD'.
So, you are the first person in history who understands Tillich? All those Christians who think they understand him are mistaken, because you say so?
Oh no my friend, I am way too uneducated to understand Tilliches complete philosophy. I am more of a fisherman with a total of about 4 years of schooling. I speak 3 languages, almost forgot the first two, and English I have not yet grasped, I need my spelling chekerer which I can't find here.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
If I say I do not believe in the Trinity Gods, I too am labeled as a 'heretic'.
There are certain varieties of Christian who relish the chance to throw around the word "heretic." Still, you aren't the only Christian who believes in the "Bible-God" but does not believe in the Trinitarian version, and just because some self-righteous Christians label you as a heretic, does not mean that you aren't a Christian. You do sincerely believe that Jesus is God, right?
Of course not. Jesus is the Son of God, who repeatedly claimed His Father was greater than he. And those 'Christian religions' that don't believe in the trinity, made up their own versions of god, like Jehovah, the Sabbath, Allah, Joseph Smith and on and on.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
The 'meaning' Christ-like was changed into a name 'Christian' as defined by Constantine, which in its reality opposed those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings. "You cannot serve two masters, ... you will cling to the one and despise the other" and Constantine is well documented in trying to serve both, the gods found in the term theism, and Christianity's One True God "I Am".
Interesting version of history. Would you mind:
1. Citing a source for the supposed original meaning of "Christian." (It's just that when the word "Χριστιανός" is used in the Bible, it seems to be pretty clear that it's intended to mean "follower of Christ," or "one who belongs/adheres to Christ.")
I'll just site what you just said, 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like'. The word Christian became a name associated with all the theistic gods. The Gentile church fell back to their old pagan-gods worship and simply absorbed and reinterpreted the One True God "I Am that I Am" (not a name) into their temples.
Quote2. Clarifying who are "those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings" during the time of Constantine, who were opposed by Constantine?
Those that remained 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like' and refused Constantines definition of 'Christian'. The 'sword' that Jesus gave us is the 'Word of God', not some physical butchering knife.
QuoteSeeing as Constantine didn't bother to actually get baptized until he was dying, I think that one might legitimately question whether he was serving anything or anyone but his self-interest at any time in his life. That would be pure speculation though, just as your version of Constantine's inner life is.
We are to walk by faith, ... but our actions reveal that 'faith'. Jesus taught us to 'turn the other cheek, and not to 'chop the heads off those that merely threaten us.
Quote from: arian on January 26, 2012, 01:02:34 AM
Sorry if my posts sound like preaching, rather than simply debating and hopefully 'teaching'. I have learned a great deal from 'atheists', they seem to have more of an open mind to new ideas, ... well not all of them of course, just as not ALL Christians have a closed mind either.
Oh, ... and I agree that defining 'atheism' does belong on the 'Religion' section,
thank you.
Theism/atheism are two sides of the same coin. One cannot be a religion without the other.
QuoteTeaching involves (among other things) conveying information and providing resources for learning. So far you have been putting forward your opinion and asserting various things while providing zilch in the way of resources (citations from reputable sources) to support your assertions. We've learned about your opinions, and your fatuous definition of atheism (which seems to consist of "arian's brand of Christianity"), but beyond that, we might as well have been watching "American Idol," for all we've learned that has any value.
How well do you know the Bible? I can back everything I tell you from the Bible, the evidence of Gods awesome wisdom and ability to create through science, the people we observe around us and where we as man-kind are heading in this world.
You may present any and all resources at your disposal to refute what I say. Fair enough? If at any time you can find anything I say that contradicts the Bible, than what I say is not in accordance with the Word of God, and you may label me a 'liar'.
(Edited to fix quote. -- Recusant)
Quote from: Ali on January 31, 2012, 07:35:53 PM
I still don't understand what makes your version of god (GOD) different from everyone else's. But I do like the idea of loving others as a form of worship, if I were to worship (which I don't.) Sounds peaceful.
So you don't love others (type of worship)? I doubt that.
Version of God;
Well, just think about it, if someone goes around and gives you a bad name, people, your family, friends will all start to see you differently, right? Before you know it, some might even start hating you, or calling you , ... oh let's say a 'pervert', (depends what your back-stabber been saying about you) Now you move, and on your return after some time, you have a completely perverted view in peoples eyes.
This is somewhat what has happened a few years after Jesus left the earth. People associate the name 'Christian' with those proclaiming to be one and are not very Christ-like, like Constantine and his horde of murderers. Look at Christian hystory throughout the ages (after Christs assention) and who could blame people hating that precious name?
I am here to reasteblish, ... reestablish, .. (I need that spelling checkerer) that sweet name Jesus, and that righteous walk "Christ-like'.
I am a sinner who needs the blood of Christ to be clensed. If I said I do not sin, .. I would be a liar. So if you see me fall, help me up, if you see me sin, tell me so I can wash myself clean again. I'll lovingly try to do the same to everyone else here.
No, I do love others, I just don't consider it to be a form of worship because I don't believe there is anyone there to worship.
Not to keep on about it, but your version of God still sounds like a god.
Replied to here instead of the person's intro thread because I made the mistake of making an off topic reply in that thread in the first place.
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 09:43:05 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 31, 2012, 06:07:17 PMIt's rather simple:
If you believe in a god (any god, the ONE true I IS god or even Bob), then you're a theist. If you don't, then you're an atheist.
Can you define "I Am"?
Why do I need to? What purpose would this serve?
Quote from: arianGoing back to the Garden of Eden, the first man Adam. Now he knew GOD. We must define GOD as Adam knew God.
Jesus came and 'defined' GOD to us;
John 1:18
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
NKJV
1 John 4:12
No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
NKJV
Biblical citations have nothing at all to do with atheism and only have something to do with some types of theism.
Quote from: arianUnless we change the definition of 'theism' to "The belief in God" period, then God would remain the One true God in everyones minds.
Sorry, I'll try again: theism is the belief in a god or gods (any god or gods up to and including whichever one you believe in whether they were in the bible, Egyptian, Norse, Greek, made up after the bible or any other kind of god or gods), atheism is the lack of that.
First a little technical help:
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 05:42:04 PMI did not get an e-mail notice that someone answered my post or not. How do I set the notice?
To receive e-mail notification of replies to threads you've posted in, you will need to open your profile (see "Profile" in the menu bar below the banner at the top of the page). In your profile, look at "Modify Profile" on the left side of the page, and click "Notifications and Email." Tick the box for "Turn notification on when you post or reply to a topic," then click "Save Settings."
* * *
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PM
Quote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMSo, you are the first person in history who understands Tillich? All those Christians who think they understand him are mistaken, because you say so?
Oh no my friend, I am way too uneducated to understand Tilliches complete philosophy. I am more of a fisherman with a total of about 4 years of schooling. I speak 3 languages, almost forgot the first two, and English I have not yet grasped, I need my spelling chekerer which I can't find here.
So you say you don't understand Tillich's "complete philosophy," yet you feel qualified to tell us that other Christians don't understand him? That's funny stuff right there. If I want to learn about his philosophy or his theological musings, I'll read them for myself. I certainly don't have any use for your mangled version, and I see no reason to trust anything you say on the subject.
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMYou do sincerely believe that Jesus is God, right?
Of course not. Jesus is the Son of God, who repeatedly claimed His Father was greater than he. And those 'Christian religions' that don't believe in the trinity, made up their own versions of god, like Jehovah, the Sabbath, Allah, Joseph Smith and on and on.
So Islam is a version of Christianity now? (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rationalskepticism.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fscratch.gif&hash=6805acca0c46f92b5a1c6f83fa79b0805105b052)
We'll ignore the Biblical basis for the common Christian understanding that Jesus is the Christian god for the moment. Please explain what you think Jesus was. A prophet, maybe?
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMInteresting version of history. Would you mind:
1. Citing a source for the supposed original meaning of "Christian." (It's just that when the word "Χριστιανός" is used in the Bible, it seems to be pretty clear that it's intended to mean "follower of Christ," or "one who belongs/adheres to Christ.")
I'll just site what you just said, 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like'. The word Christian became a name associated with all the theistic gods. The Gentile church fell back to their old pagan-gods worship and simply absorbed and reinterpreted the One True God "I Am that I Am" (not a name) into their temples.
No, you're
not citing what I said. You've added your version of the translation of the Greek word
"Χριστιανός," which is not what I wrote. Please cite a reputable authority (i.e. an expert in the Greek language of the Bible, or a standard concordance (http://studybible.info/strongs/G5546); not some evangelist who's willing to play fast and loose with the truth) which says that the translation of
"Χριστιανός" is "Christ-like." That is what I asked you to do in the first place. It should be an easy thing to do, if your translation is correct. While you're at it, you might give a historic basis for your assertions regarding the theology of "the Gentile church."
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AM2. Clarifying who are "those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings" during the time of Constantine, who were opposed by Constantine?
Those that remained 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like' and refused Constantines definition of 'Christian'. The 'sword' that Jesus gave us is the 'Word of God', not some physical butchering knife.
What was Constantine's definition of "Christian"? (Again, I ask that you support this with a reputable source; I really am not interested in your personal version of history.) Who were those that
remained 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like,' and where are they mentioned in history? You of course are aware that Constantine reconciled with the Arians and was baptized by an Arian bishop.
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMSeeing as Constantine didn't bother to actually get baptized until he was dying, I think that one might legitimately question whether he was serving anything or anyone but his self-interest at any time in his life. That would be pure speculation though, just as your version of Constantine's inner life is.
We are to walk by faith, ... but our actions reveal that 'faith'. Jesus taught us to 'turn the other cheek, and not to 'chop the heads off those that merely threaten us.
Non sequitur. Your version of the meaning of Matthew 10:34-39 is dubious, and as I pointed out, you can not tell us what was in Constantine's heart, nor what his faith was or wasn't, whatever his actions were.
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMTheism/atheism are two sides of the same coin. One cannot be a religion without the other.
That's unadulterated hogwash. You remind me of other Christians who've trotted through here spouting their personal re-definitions of commonly understood terms and acting as if they're bestowing some profound wisdom on the benighted unbelievers. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMHow well do you know the Bible? I can back everything I tell you from the Bible, the evidence of Gods awesome wisdom and ability to create through science, the people we observe around us and where we as man-kind are heading in this world.
Says the "atheist." (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg826.imageshack.us%2Fimg826%2F4195%2Flolbymissbangles.gif&hash=a459a670b2fef67538964246ce892a4b5f7d96e2)
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMYou may present any and all resources at your disposal to refute what I say. Fair enough? If at any time you can find anything I say that contradicts the Bible, than what I say is not in accordance with the Word of God, and you may label me a 'liar'.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that a believer in the Bible-God is an atheist. While that isn't a contradiction of the Bible
per se, but it doesn't appear to be based on anything in the Bible, either. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rationalskepticism.org%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_ask.gif&hash=b6b9f0060ccfdb4d67bf004e850c291d1ce9490e)
In my opinion, you haven't done anything since you joined this site but preach, and I had my fill of that decades ago. I've read the Bible in its entirety a couple of times, and have studied some portions of it in depth. I'm not here to defend Christian orthodoxy, but I do find it amusing that somebody who says that he believes in the "Bible-God" and is here preaching his version of Christianity also insists that he's an atheist.
Arian, where exactly does this name (I am) that you're giving the biblical god come from? You claim that it is I am 'as defined by the Prophets and Jesus in the Bible'. Where does it appear in the Bible? Where do Jesus or the prophets use this name?
The name of the Jewish god Yahweh appears over 6500 times in the Jewish Bible, and is known from over 40 inscriptions from the 8th/9th century BCE onwards in ancient Israel. The phrase 'I am' appears once to my knowledge, in the myth of the Exodus, where Yahweh tells Moses 'I am who I am'. It all just sounds a bit Popeye to me, maybe this 'GOD' you believe in is a spinach-eating sailor...
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg571.imageshack.us%2Fimg571%2F1261%2Fpopeyespinach1.gif&hash=8bf2554e0730bfa83df7358cea3b5ccb7dd08318) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/571/popeyespinach1.gif/)
I would like to see a few words defined by Arian:
"God"
"god"
"Bible"
"deity"
"supernatural"
"I am"
"religion"
"theist"
"christian"
"atheist"
please define them all right next to each other as clearly as you can so we can figure out how you are using these words because you are very confusing for anyone who uses those words in a normal way.
Quote
Quote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMSo, you are the first person in history who understands Tillich? All those Christians who think they understand him are mistaken, because you say so?
Oh no my friend, I am way too uneducated to understand Tilliches complete philosophy. I am more of a fisherman with a total of about 4 years of schooling. I speak 3 languages, almost forgot the first two, and English I have not yet grasped, I need my spelling chekerer which I can't find here.
Quote from: Recusant on January 31, 2012, 11:15:41 PMSo you say you don't understand Tillich's "complete philosophy," yet you're going to tell us what you think he was saying? Not only that, but you feel qualified to tell us that other Christians don't understand him? That's funny stuff right there. If I want to learn about his philosophy or his theological musings, I'll read them for myself. I certainly don't have any use for your mangled version.
Thank you for that info sir on the e-mail notification.
I'm sure you believe in the Big-bang theory, right? How much of that theory do you understand, down to the quantum gravitation level? What was the
'point in space' that the universe at the 'Planck Epoch' resided in getting ready to create 'space/time' in?
Of the thousands upon thousands of books written on the Big-bang theory alone, how many have you read, how many have you studied? Have you weighed out all the hypothesis relating to the Gravitational singularity? What was before time/space was created by the big bang? There are a lot of ideas out there and some contradict the others, have you weight them all out? Which idea, or theory did you pick and why?
How many 'atheists' understand the big bang theory to the quantum level, and make up their own ideas as to what might of bring about the ... oh whatever was there first, maybe just 'energy' acting upon 'energy' or just some unknown 'information'? Do people who don't know everything there is to know about the theory of the Big bang have a right to believe in it? How about 'biological evolution'? How much of those that believe 'evolution' to be a fact know 'about' evolution? Generally people belive in a 'mangled version', I'm sure you must agree.
As I was reading up alittle on those in history that did not believe in the Trinity doctrine, the main points on Tillich was mentioned. But yes, it would be a good idea for those interested to read Tillich for themselves.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMYou do sincerely believe that Jesus is God, right?
Of course not. Jesus is the Son of God, who repeatedly claimed His Father was greater than he. And those 'Christian religions' that don't believe in the trinity, made up their own versions of god, like Jehovah, the Sabbath, Allah, Joseph Smith and on and on.
We'll ignore the Biblical basis for the common Christian understanding that Jesus is the Christian god for the moment. Please explain what you think Jesus was. A prophet, maybe?
He was the Messiah, as described in the Bible:
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJVIn the beginning was the Word, and we know God has no beginning, and we know Jesus is the Word of God. Before God sent His Son the Word into the world, He was 'with God' and before that, the 'Word' was God as Eve was Adam before God took her out of him.
John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
NKJVThe Word (the begotten Son of God) became flesh, implanted as a DNA into the egg of virgin girl named Mary by the Holy Spirit, and was born and named Jesus.
John 1:10
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
NKJVMan should have recognized the Son of God through his personality, his love, but man only looks upon the flesh and didn't recognize Him.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMInteresting version of history. Would you mind:
1. Citing a source for the supposed original meaning of "Christian." (It's just that when the word "Χριστιανός" is used in the Bible, it seems to be pretty clear that it's intended to mean "follower of Christ," or "one who belongs/adheres to Christ.")
I'll just site what you just said, 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like'. The word Christian became a name associated with all the theistic gods. The Gentile church fell back to their old pagan-gods worship and simply absorbed and reinterpreted the One True God "I Am that I Am" (not a name) into their temples.
No, you're not citing what I said. You've added your version of the translation of the Greek word "Χριστιανός," which is not what I wrote. Please cite a reputable authority who says that the translation of "Χριστιανός" is "Christ-like," which is what I asked you to do in the first place. While you're at it, you might give a historic basis for your assertions regarding the theology of "the Gentile church."
CHRISTIAN
CHRISTIAN. A Christian is a believer in and a follower of Jesus Christ the Messiah. This name is more widely employed than any other designation of those who believe unto salvation. However, it occurs in the Scriptures only three times: "And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" (Acts 11:26); "and Agrippa replied to Paul, 'In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian'" (26:28); "If anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed" (1 Peter 4:16).
The term Christian is clearly a Gentile designation for believers because the word Christ, upon which the term was constructed, suggests recognition of the Messiah, which no unbelieving Jew was prepared to do. Becoming a Christian, according to the NT, is a definite act with significant results. According to Lewis Sperry Chafer, no fewer than thirty-three simultaneous and instantaneous divine undertakings and transformations, which collectively constitute the salvation of a soul, take place the moment one exercises faith in Christ and is saved. Among these is that a believer in Christ has the guilt of his sins removed. Second, he is taken out of Adam, the sphere of condemnation, and placed in Christ, the sphere of righteousness and justification. Third, he is given a new standing by virtue of his being placed "in Christ" by the Spirit's baptizing work (1 Cor 12:13; Rom 6:3-4). A Christian then, as Chafer says, "Is not one who does certain things for God but . . . one for whom God has done certain things; he is not so much one who conforms to a certain manner of life as he is one who has received the gift of eternal life; he is not one who depends upon a hopelessly imperfect state but rather one who has reached a perfect standing before God as being in Christ" (Systematic Theology, 7:75).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AM2. Clarifying who are "those few that served and walked according to Jesus teachings" during the time of Constantine, who were opposed by Constantine?
Those that remained 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like' and refused Constantines definition of 'Christian'. The 'sword' that Jesus gave us is the 'Word of God', not some physical butchering knife.
What was Constantine's definition of "Christian"? (Preferably supported by a reputable source.) Who were those that remained 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like,' and where are they mentioned in history? You of course are aware that Constantine reconciled with the Arians and was baptized by an Arian bishop.
The Arians at the time were very influential, but when he opposed the Trinity Doctrine, I believe he was killed, and his books burnt, and those kept were reinterpreted.
Besides the point, I argued against the Trinity doctrine way before I learned of Arian. I was actually called an Arian-heretic, and so I looked him up.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMSeeing as Constantine didn't bother to actually get baptized until he was dying, I think that one might legitimately question whether he was serving anything or anyone but his self-interest at any time in his life. That would be pure speculation though, just as your version of Constantine's inner life is.
We are to walk by faith, ... but our actions reveal that 'faith'. Jesus taught us to 'turn the other cheek, and not to 'chop the heads off those that merely threaten us.
Non sequitur. Your version of the meaning of Matthew 10:34-39 is dubious, and as I pointed out, you can not tell us what was in Constantine's heart, nor what his faith was or wasn't, whatever his actions were.
But atheists are allowed to point out the contradicting actions of Christians? Our actions reveal a big part of who we are.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMTheism/atheism are two sides of the same coin. One cannot be a religion without the other.
That's unadulterated hogwash. You remind me of other Christians we've had trotting through here spouting their personal re-definitions of commonly understood terms and acting as if they're bestowing some profound wisdom on the benighted unbelievers. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
You do call yourselves 'atheists' am I right? You have a place to gather, those who you share yor testemonials with and so on, right? You have a 'belief sytem' of which theistic gods you don't believe in, right? Two sides of the same coin. You are actually closer to knowing Bible-God than the Theists. They are hopeless because they think they 'know' they are right
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMHow well do you know the Bible? I can back everything I tell you from the Bible, the evidence of Gods awesome wisdom and ability to create through science, the people we observe around us and where we as man-kind are heading in this world.
Says the "atheist." (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg826.imageshack.us%2Fimg826%2F4195%2Flolbymissbangles.gif&hash=a459a670b2fef67538964246ce892a4b5f7d96e2)
Yes, I don't believe in any of those 'theistic gods'. Theism 'does NOT necesseraly include the God of the Bible', and my GOD is very necesseraly the Bible God, and ONLY the Bible God. Not 'may, or may not' be.
QuoteQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMYou may present any and all resources at your disposal to refute what I say. Fair enough? If at any time you can find anything I say that contradicts the Bible, than what I say is not in accordance with the Word of God, and you may label me a 'liar'.
In my opinion, you haven't done anything since you joined this site but preach, and I had my fill of that decades ago. I've read the Bible in its entirety a couple of times, and have studied some portions of it in depth. I'm not here to defend Christian orthodoxy, but I do find it amusing that somebody who says that he believes in the "Bible-God" and is here preaching his version of Christianity insists that he's an atheist.
I'm very happy that you find it amuzing, because the Theist Christians sure don't. It frightens them something awful.
I enjoyed our debate, I thank you friend.
(Edited to fix quotes. -- Recusant)
Arian, if you are an atheist, then I am Napoleon. :-\
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
So you don't love others (type of worship)? I doubt that.
Personally, my love is conditional and depends on maintaining adequate returns, so I do not equate love to worship
QuoteI am a sinner who needs the blood of Christ to be clensed. If I said I do not sin, .. I would be a liar. So if you see me fall, help me up, if you see me sin, tell me so I can wash myself clean again. I'll lovingly try to do the same to everyone else here.
Why the need to be cleansed? Why can't you just be a sinner and proud of it?
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AM
Yes, I don't believe in any of those 'theistic gods'. Theism 'does NOT necesseraly include the God of the Bible', and my GOD is very necesseraly the Bible God, and ONLY the Bible God. Not 'may, or may not' be.
To an atheist, your Bible 'GOD' is no different from Zeus, Baal or Odin. All gods are theistic gods by definition (including yours), in fact the phrase 'theistic gods' is a pointless tautology. Theist derives from the Greek word for god,
theos, exactly the same word that's used to describe your 'GOD' in the New Testament!
Quote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 08:15:31 PM
I am here to reasteblish, ... reestablish, .. (I need that spelling checkerer) that sweet name Jesus, and that righteous walk "Christ-like'.
Oh, and unless you are the guy's official PR rep, re-arranging his balls is really not your job. Let your sweet Jesus fight his own battles.
Quote from: Whitney on February 01, 2012, 01:08:27 AM
I would like to see a few words defined by Arian:
"God"
"god"
"Bible"
"deity"
"supernatural"
"I am"
"religion"
"theist"
"christian"
"atheist"
please define them all right next to each other as clearly as you can so we can figure out how you are using these words because you are very confusing for anyone who uses those words in a normal way.
QuoteI would like to see a few words defined by Arian:
THIS is why I love you guys. No Christian has EVER asked me this before, only critiqued my different understanding from theirs, and when I proved myself, they would shun me as if I was the devil himself. True believers don't hide, nor would they ever burn another Believer at the stake, but try to reason as you are doing. I am not saying you are a Christian, never. I thank you Whitney.
"God" - Creator of man, Adam. No other gods present in the mind of Adam, Eve or any other siblings within the Garden.
"god" – Man kicked out of the Garden. Over time men decide and say: "Who needs God, I will create a god to my likening, who will serve and fill all my desires." So came the birth of many-gods. Bad crops, boom and there is the 'harvest god', poor bedroom activity, boom and you have the 'fertility god' and so on, thousands of them.
"Bible" – Old Testament is the History of Creation. Then the laws are given to man through Moses to hopefully reveal how wicked men have become and that even the punishment of death will not deter their wicked ways. Man is revealed as if looking in a mirror (laws) in hope he realizes that he's just evil. All his ways are up to no good.
- New Testament – The Saviour. Those that are sick and tired of reaping the result of their iniquity, like the pain and suffering, all the diseases, the hard life, oppression, finally bow in humility and accept Him as their King and their spiritual minds are awakened, overcome their 'self', that 'I' and are set free.
But who are these ones that can follow a King who walks amongst the poor and the worst of sinners, in simple apparel, born in a manger and who washes his Apostles feet, .. a servant himself? Few, very few indeed who are sick and tired of deceiving and being deceived.
The Bible is a window to unimaginable wisdom, power, and peace beyond understanding. But the wicked use it to gain wealth, to control the minds of the multitudes. It gave them power over sin-loving man and forced them to worship man and idols as gods.
"deity" – As defined in the dictionary, with added note:
DEITY:
1. god or goddess: a god, goddess, or other divine being
2. somebody or something like god: somebody or something that is treated like a god
3. divine state: the condition or status of a god or goddess
Divine;
1. religion; having godlike nature: being God or a god or goddess
2. religion; relating to God, gods, or goddesses: connected with, coming from, or caused by God or a god or goddess
3. religion; connected with worship: connected with the worship or service of God or a god or goddessNote; At Creation, and after man was created, Adam did not know of any God but ONE. As wickedness grew, man distanced himself from God and over time filled that void of his Creator with lies and self deception, creating gods out of wood and stone. These were revered and called 'deities', and worshipped to such extent, that Satan and his angels were invited to come and reside within these worshippers (not the actual idols), and these demonic spirits possessed their bodies and minds. Through divination Satan was able to convince man that those gods were real. We see this in many pagan religious worship, especially in Catholism today. The worship of Mary who is created to be the 'mother of God' is an excellent example.
The definition of 'deities', 'Devine' are all relating to 'Gentile Theism', where sometimes one god would be held above all the others (like the King and his golden image in Daniels time) while the rest of the gods remain in their appointed positions and were continued to be worshipped.
God of Adam, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was NEVER considered as a part of any of them theistic gods, the gentile world didn't even know their Creator God.
"supernatural" – Again look at its definition;
1. not of natural world: relating or attributed to phenomena that cannot be explained by natural laws
2. relating to a deity: relating or attributed to a deity
3. magical: relating or attributed to magic or the occultDemonic possession is not of the natural world, but are from man worshiping deities like Satan and his angels. These are still practiced by the occult through magic and spells. I know, I have seen them with witnesses, they have attacked me on several occasions.
Of course our Creator is NOT amongst these definitions either, for all things are in 'I Am' including the supernatural realm where Satan and his angels are kept, out of Heaven, roaming this realm that is between earth and Heaven.
Rev 12:12
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
KJV"I am" – Existence, a conscious source of being who is the sum total of all that was, is and ever will be, the only indefinable, un-seeable God. All things that are created like Heaven where the Son resides and where the Angels of God are, this physical universe, and a place called hell that is prepared for Satan and his angels, everything is IN Him. There is no one, not even a single atom besides Him. He is not IN creation, but creation is IN Him.
"religion" – As defined in the dictionary, with note:
1. religion beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by - The danger is that you start to make fitness a religionAs we can see, it is all related to the Theistic gods brought alive by personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine. A perfect example is in:
Acts 17:22-25
Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
NKJVThis shows that the pagan Gentiles did not 'know' our GOD, only worshipped all their theistic gods religiously, until Paul introduced our Creator to them who, as he said;
the One whom you worship without knowing, and who ... does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.This is why people today understand the Creator God within the definition of 'theism', because today's Gentile Christians continue their pagan worship in temples and humongous churches made with hands calling it
'the house of God', and the tithing's, the offerings to God as if He needed anything. They are no different than those back in the time of Paul in Athens.
"theist" – as defined in the dictionaries, the worship of God and gods (one god being the greatest over those other gods, not our Creator), They worship devine beings in the supernatural realm, where Satan and his angels reside for the time being.
"Christian" – a religion as defined by the Pagan Gentiles (see my other post) those that worship the theistic gods. The eternal Church, the body of true Believers in the only True God who 'Is' is not a part of this pagan version of Christianity.
"atheist" – Those that got tired of, or refuse to worship one or any of them theistic deities, god and gods. Atheists are sometimes confused with Satanic worshipers by Theists, and in the same way, Satanic worshipers confuse themselves as being Atheists, but nothing could further from the truth. Satanic worshipers are Theists themselves, like Christians who can go and convert others to Christianity in different countries, and then turn on them and slaughter them in the name of the god they worship. Theists against theists, burning and killing one another, which has nothing to do with the Living Church whose head is Jesus Christ, who taught us to "love one another, to turn the other cheek".
Quote from: Whitneyplease define them all right next to each other as clearly as you can so we can figure out how you are using these words because you are very confusing for anyone who uses those words in a normal way.
The Pagan theistic Gentile definition of 'Christian' has remained a theistic 'religion' that worship a perverted idolized version of god and gods with Biblical names, idolized by hand made wood and plastic images, idols that cannot hear nor speak. They are the false apostles preparing their doom;
2 Cor 11:13-15
13 Those men are not true apostles — they are false apostles, who lie about their work and disguise themselves to look like real apostles of Christ. 14 Well, no wonder! Even Satan can disguise himself to look like an angel of light! 15 So it is no great thing if his servants disguise themselves to look like servants of righteousness. In the end they will get exactly what their actions deserve.
TEVThe Lord has chosen the 'time' to reveal this truth to whoever has an ear and is willing to hear, and that TIME is NOW.
Gal 6:2-5
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 5 For each one shall bear his own load.NKJV
I am NOT preaching, I am revealing the truth. You asked, I through the help of GOD have provided the answers. If you believe this is debatable, fine, .. let's debate.
ok...still confused on how you came to view yourself as not a theist.
Where did you get your understanding of the word theist and how did you cram the concept of angels and demons into it?
To be completely blunt, I think you have to be trolling the forum because you are pulling your definitions of theist and atheist out of left field. I was hoping that you defining all of those words would help to show you that you are really still a theist but your understanding of the word theist is fundamentally flawed as you are arbitrarily considering what you believe to be "the creator" as being God that somehow isn't a god. Philosophically you appear to be all over the place.
What argument do you have for ignoring these basic (and widely accepted) definitions?
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/t.htm#theism
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/a9.htm#athe
QuoteI am NOT preaching, I am revealing the truth.
Actually you were just throwing out bible verses that have no apparent application given the context in which they were provided. Much closer to preaching than providing rational arguments or proof.
Maybe I'm just not high enough yet...
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMI'm sure you believe in the Big-bang theory, right?
As a short-hand description of my view of the consensus in current cosmology, that is not inaccurate. :P
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMHow much of that theory do you understand, down to the quantum gravitation level?
Quantum gravitation? There are people trying to develop models of quantum gravity, but
no one "understands" the "quantum gravitation level," whatever that is. To answer your question, I try to keep up with developments in the field of cosmology, and like to think that I have a reasonably accurate layman's understanding of the basic concepts in modern cosmology.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMWhat was the 'point in space' that the universe at the 'Planck Epoch' resided in getting ready to create 'space/time' in?
Why do you say "point in space"? There is no evidence that "space" as we know it even existed in the Planck era. If you know anything about cosmology, you know that current science says nothing at all about the singularity which is thought to have existed in the Planck era, nor about a continuum in which it might have existed, let alone whether such a concept is applicable to that era. There is no answer to your question, and it's possible that there never will be an answer in which we could place any confidence.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMOf the thousands upon thousands of books written on the Big-bang theory alone, how many have you read, how many have you studied? Have you weighed out all the hypothesis relating to the Gravitational singularity? What was before time/space was created by the big bang? There are a lot of ideas out there and some contradict the others, have you weight them all out? Which idea, or theory did you pick and why?
I'm not going to bother to recite for you what books I have and haven't read on the topic of cosmology, and in fact most of my recent reading on it comes from such publications as
Sky and Telescope and
Astronomy, as well as from places like ScienceDaily.com and any papers published online that I get access to.
Your questions above reveal a striking ignorance of the topic. There is no one "Gravitational singularity," for instance. That term is used to describe various possible phenomena. Cosmologists might speculate on "what was before time/space was created by the big bang," but no reputable cosmologist will tell you that they have anything approaching a solid hypothesis on it.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMHow many 'atheists' understand the big bang theory to the quantum level, and make up their own ideas as to what might of bring about the ... oh whatever was there first, maybe just 'energy' acting upon 'energy' or just some unknown 'information'?
I don't know the answer to that question. Why do you consider it relevant? Atheism is not predicated on an understanding of modern cosmology; it is merely a position on the existence of gods: Some atheists believe that gods do not exist, while others merely believe that they are extremely unlikely to exist. I think many atheists are probably aware of the fact that cosmologists unequivocally state that nothing is known about what might have occurred in the Planck era. This admission by no means suggests that the late Bronze Age mythology found in the Bible, or the similarly uninformed mythology found in the Quran, contain valid insights into cosmology.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMDo people who don't know everything there is to know about the theory of the Big bang have a right to believe in it? How about 'biological evolution'? How much of those that believe 'evolution' to be a fact know 'about' evolution? Generally people belive in a 'mangled version', I'm sure you must agree.
Your point? If I were involved in a discussion and read a statement which presented cosmology or evolutionary biology in what I knew or thought to be an inaccurate manner, I would point out the inaccuracies and/or request supporting information from reputable sources. If somebody started presenting their thoughts on one of these topics and then admitted they didn't really understand it, I would question the value of their opinions, and most likely dismiss them. The ignorance of the general public on these topics doesn't seem relevant to this discussion.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMAs I was reading up alittle on those in history that did not believe in the Trinity doctrine, the main points on Tillich was mentioned. But yes, it would be a good idea for those interested to read Tillich for themselves.
I have read some of his thoughts on "god above God" and interestingly, he uses the Christian trinity in his description of his god, so I'm not sure why you think that he agrees with your unitarian position. Perhaps you might tell me where you read about Tillich's writings, so that I might try to understand why you think his theological ideas support your position.
Quote from: Recusant on January 31, 2012, 11:15:41 PMQuote from: arian on January 31, 2012, 07:47:17 PMQuote from: Recusant on January 26, 2012, 02:16:24 AMYou do sincerely believe that Jesus is God, right?
Of course not. Jesus is the Son of God, who repeatedly claimed His Father was greater than he. And those 'Christian religions' that don't believe in the trinity, made up their own versions of god, like Jehovah, the Sabbath, Allah, Joseph Smith and on and on.
We'll ignore the Biblical basis for the common Christian understanding that Jesus is the Christian god for the moment. Please explain what you think Jesus was. A prophet, maybe?
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMHe was the Messiah, as described in the Bible:
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
NKJV
In the beginning was the Word, and we know God has no beginning, and we know Jesus is the Word of God. Before God sent His Son the Word into the world, He was 'with God' and before that, the 'Word' was God as Eve was Adam before God took her out of him.
This passage says that, "the Word was God," and you say that "the Word" is Jesus. Yet you also say that Jesus is not God. I look forward to your explanation of why this isn't the glaring contradiction that it appears to be.
Your analogy with Eve and Adam appears to be a fabrication; nowhere in the Bible does it say that Eve was "with Adam" before God supposedly created her from Adam's rib.
There is also an unwarranted assumption in your formulation. Something that exists "in the beginning" may have existed before the beginning. There is nothing in the Bible which says that "the Word" only began to exist "in the beginning."
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMJohn 1:14
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
NKJV
The Word (the begotten Son of God) became flesh, implanted as a DNA into the egg of virgin girl named Mary by the Holy Spirit, and was born and named Jesus.
Why is "His" capitalized in this passage, if Jesus is not God? Is the "Son of God" merely human, in your opinion? If he is not merely human, is he some sort of god/human hybrid? Where is DNA mentioned in the Bible?
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMQuote from: Recusant on January 31, 2012, 11:15:41 PMPlease cite a reputable authority who says that the translation of "Χριστιανός" is "Christ-like," which is what I asked you to do in the first place. While you're at it, you might give a historic basis for your assertions regarding the theology of "the Gentile church."
CHRISTIAN
CHRISTIAN. A Christian is a believer in and a follower of Jesus Christ the Messiah. This name is more widely employed than any other designation of those who believe unto salvation. However, it occurs in the Scriptures only three times: "And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch" (Acts 11:26); "and Agrippa replied to Paul, 'In a short time you will persuade me to become a Christian'" (26:28); "If anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed" (1 Peter 4:16). The term Christian is clearly a Gentile designation for believers because the word Christ, upon which the term was constructed, suggests recognition of the Messiah, which no unbelieving Jew was prepared to do. Becoming a Christian, according to the NT, is a definite act with significant results. According to Lewis Sperry Chafer, no fewer than thirty-three simultaneous and instantaneous divine undertakings and transformations, which collectively constitute the salvation of a soul, take place the moment one exercises faith in Christ and is saved. Among these is that a believer in Christ has the guilt of his sins removed. Second, he is taken out of Adam, the sphere of condemnation, and placed in Christ, the sphere of righteousness and justification. Third, he is given a new standing by virtue of his being placed "in Christ" by the Spirit's baptizing work (1 Cor 12:13; Rom 6:3-4). A Christian then, as Chafer says, "Is not one who does certain things for God but . . . one for whom God has done certain things; he is not so much one who conforms to a certain manner of life as he is one who has received the gift of eternal life; he is not one who depends upon a hopelessly imperfect state but rather one who has reached a perfect standing before God as being in Christ" (Systematic Theology, 7:75).
(from The New Unger's Bible Dictionary. Originally published by Moody Press of Chicago, Illinois. Copyright (c) 1988.)
Thank you. Nowhere in that quote from the
New Unger's (including the section you bolded) does it say that
"Χριστιανός" is correctly translated as "Christ-like." If this is the best you can do, I think it is reasonable to retire that particular assertion as unsupported and apparently unsupportable, thus invalid.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMQuote from: Recusant on January 31, 2012, 11:15:41 PMWhat was Constantine's definition of "Christian"? (Preferably supported by a reputable source.) Who were those that remained 'followers of Christ, or Christ-like,' and where are they mentioned in history? You of course are aware that Constantine reconciled with the Arians and was baptized by an Arian bishop.
The Arians at the time were very influential, but when he opposed the Trinity Doctrine, I believe he was killed, and his books burnt, and those kept were reinterpreted.
Besides the point, I argued against the Trinity doctrine way before I learned of Arian. I was actually called an Arian-heretic, and so I looked him up.
Are you unable to give Constantine's definition of "Christian," despite the fact that you specifically said that the contemporary true followers of Christ rejected that definition? If we don't know what these people rejected, how are we to distinguish them from (presumably) false Christians of that era?
It seems that you are saying that the Arians were the true followers of Christ; at least we've established that.
The man's name was Arius, by the way, not "Arian," and the story of his death does not mention anybody killing him. There was later conjecture that he may have been poisoned, but it remains a conjecture, not a historical fact.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMQuote from: Recusant on January 31, 2012, 11:15:41 PM. . .as I pointed out, you can not tell us what was in Constantine's heart, nor what his faith was or wasn't, whatever his actions were.
But atheists are allowed to point out the contradicting actions of Christians? Our actions reveal a big part of who we are.
Our actions
may reveal a big part of who we are, depending on how closely those actions actually reflect who we are, and depending on how others interpret them. Your first sentence seems to be another non sequitur.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMQuote from: Recusant on January 31, 2012, 11:15:41 PMYou remind me of other Christians we've had trotting through here spouting their personal re-definitions of commonly understood terms and acting as if they're bestowing some profound wisdom on the benighted unbelievers. Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
You do call yourselves 'atheists' am I right? You have a place to gather, those who you share yor testemonials with and so on, right? You have a 'belief sytem' of which theistic gods you don't believe in, right? Two sides of the same coin. You are actually closer to knowing Bible-God than the Theists. They are hopeless because they think they 'know' they are right.
Yes, many here call themselves atheists, but we have Christian members and Muslim members as well. We've had members who believe in Sikhism, and pagans, etc.
Atheism is not a "belief system,"
arian. It is a (negative) position regarding the existence of gods. Atheists can (and do) believe any number of things aside from their lack of belief in gods. You betray a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "atheist" here, and I suspect you will refuse to acknowledge that you are repeating a common canard which has been parroted by religious people for years.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 03:22:51 AMYes, I don't believe in any of those 'theistic gods'. Theism 'does NOT necesseraly include the God of the Bible', and my GOD is very necesseraly the Bible God, and ONLY the Bible God. Not 'may, or may not' be.
You can redefine "theism" to your heart's content, but there's no reason why anybody should give serious consideration to the products of your peculiar predilection for willful inaccuracy.
Quote from: Whitney on February 01, 2012, 07:24:41 PM
ok...still confused on how you came to view yourself as not a theist.
Where did you get your understanding of the word theist and how did you cram the concept of angels and demons into it?
To be completely blunt, I think you have to be trolling the forum because you are pulling your definitions of theist and atheist out of left field. I was hoping that you defining all of those words would help to show you that you are really still a theist but your understanding of the word theist is fundamentally flawed as you are arbitrarily considering what you believe to be "the creator" as being God that somehow isn't a god. Philosophically you appear to be all over the place.
What argument do you have for ignoring these basic (and widely accepted) definitions?
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/t.htm#theism
http://www.philosophypages.com/dy/a9.htm#athe
QuoteI am NOT preaching, I am revealing the truth.
Actually you were just throwing out bible verses that have no apparent application given the context in which they were provided. Much closer to preaching than providing rational arguments or proof.
God, as with Adam and Eve, no theism yet, no god or gods yet, but only ONE God who Is. Creator and Father of all created, including the begotten Son.
Please point out my missuse of Scripture, I will gladly retract it.
A 'common' definition of Jesus is that He is God, .. right? That is not true of Bible Jesus, but it is very true in Christianity today. I do not 'follow' a Christin religious version of Jesus, but a Bible version/definition One. So tell me, what should I do?
Have I fallen? Help me up.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 09:06:43 PM
God, as with Adam and Eve, no theism yet, no god or gods yet, but only ONE God who Is. Creator and Father of all created, including the begotten Son.
If we entertain Adam and Eve as actual people and not just mythical beings...they were theists because they believed God was/is real. It's really that simple.
QuotePlease point out my missuse of Scripture, I will gladly retract it.
you quoted it for no practical reason in the context of your 'argument'...aka preaching.
QuoteA 'common' definition of Jesus is that He is God, .. right? That is not true of Bible Jesus, but it is very true in Christianity today. I do not 'follow' a Christin religious version of Jesus, but a Bible version/definition One. So tell me, what should I do?
I think you should quit butchering the English language in an attempt to disassociate yourself from mainstream Christianity. For the record, most christian churches accept the trinity even if their followers suck at understanding it. Not to mention that the bible doesn't actually mention the trinity the idea of it was developed in order to reconcile there being only one God with the idea of Jesus as the son without having to make Jesus into a minor God and change the religion into polytheism.
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 09:06:43 PM
Have I fallen? Help me up.
Sorry, what?!
Have you fallen? Get up, brush off the dust and move on. Don't wait for a stranger to assist you.
Arian, if you believe Jesus is your saviour and the son of your god you're a Christian, plain and simple. That's what defines a Christian, and just about the only thing that has defined all Christians throughout history.
You're not the first Christian I've seen on this forum claiming that they're not a Christian. We had a guy who called himself 'Earthling' doing the same thing last year. He believed the Bible was the 'Word of God' and that Jesus was the 'Son of God', but got quite angry if he was called a Christian. Thankfully, you're a lot better natured than he was, but I'd still define you as a Christian, and definitely not an atheist. If you were an atheist, you wouldn't believe in your fairy tale Bible god.
Given that you believe in the god of the Bible, and believe that Jesus is your saviour and the son of your god, in what way do your beliefs differ from those of Christians? (given that there are and have been many different types of Christians).
I guess I just don't understand why you are clinging to the label "atheist" when every conventional definition of the word would be directly opposite of what you believe. I'm starting to think that you're just trying to whip us into some sort of atheist "Well Actually"* frenzy.
*My husband's cousin once pointed out that that entire side of the family constantly uses the phrase "well actually" to correct each other because they can't stand to let an inaccuracy pass, uncommented upon. That's exactly how I'm starting to feel about this thread.
Sorry Arian, but you've lost this person too. Speaking just for myself (though I suspect others may agree with me), when you start citing the bible and passages in it to support your argument, I can't take you seriously. As far as I'm concerned, the bible is a collection of stories from people, not the word of god or any other mystical being. It means just as much to me as it does the koran or any other religious text; interesting historical documents, but not to be taken literally.
This does not mean I am close-minded, as you have implied that people who call themselves "atheists" or "theists" are. I am simply declaring that I am skeptical of anything without evidence. You have not cited any real evidence to support your position, which can barely be defined anymore anyway. You call yourself atheist, yet you speak of higher beings by citing a religious text that contains fantastic stories that have never been proven.
As far as I'm concerned, you're a theist, and probably Christian. I wouldn't normally have an issue with that, except that you're trying to deny it using long, circular arguments that ultimately say nothing.
Quote from: Whitney on February 01, 2012, 09:21:37 PM
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 09:06:43 PM
God, as with Adam and Eve, no theism yet, no god or gods yet, but only ONE God who Is. Creator and Father of all created, including the begotten Son.
If we entertain Adam and Eve as actual people and not just mythical beings...they were theists because they believed God was/is real. It's really that simple.
Adam and Eve mythical beings? Does Galileo, Abraham Lincoln and all them others in history fall into that same category? I have seen pictures/paintings of them, oh yea, a bunch of books too, so what separates them from Adam and Eve?
What gives 'cave-paintings', you know those that supposedly contribute to the 'proof' that evolution is a 'fact', have any more credibility then the stories in the Bible?
"Theism is the belief in God or gods, the capital G God is 'not necessarily of the Bible'." What good would such word do for Adam and Eve?
Gods command: "You shall have no other gods before Me" came long 'after', when the world was already full of theistic gods.
Quote from: WhitneyQuote from: arianPlease point out my misuse of Scripture, I will gladly retract it.
you quoted it for no practical reason in the context of your 'argument'...aka preaching.
Oh, ... I guess that was pointing my error out, because 'you' found no particular reason for 'me' using it?!? Could you tell me 'when you' believe would be a good reason 'for me' to quote Scripture?
Quote from: WhitneyQuote from: arianA 'common' definition of Jesus is that He is God, .. right? That is not true of Bible Jesus, but it is very true in Christianity today. I do not 'follow' a Christian religious version of Jesus, but a Bible version/definition One. So tell me, what should I do?
I think you should quit butchering the English language in an attempt to disassociate yourself from mainstream Christianity.
So I guess that the word 'bitch' now relates to all women who experience agitation during their monthly period? If I should use it in its original meaning, I would be 'butchering the English language'?
Quote from: WhitneyFor the record, most Christian churches accept the trinity even if their followers suck at understanding it.
Not just the followers, but the Ministers, the leaders themselves are lost in the concept of it. I once heard Adrian Rogers on TV to his millions of audiences explain the trinity doctrine like this:
"Humpty dumpty sat on a wall, humpty dumpty had a great fall, all the kings horses and all the kings men, could not put humpty back together again, ... now that speaks to me!"The crowd roared in applause.
Quote from: WhitneyNot to mention that the bible doesn't actually mention the trinity the idea of it was developed in order to reconcile there being only one God with the idea of Jesus as the son without having to make Jesus into a minor God and change the religion into polytheism.
The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus IS the Son, so there was never a need for this doctrine. The Trinity clearly defines 3 gods, as on a triangle; Top is 'Father-god', then 'Son-god', and finally 'Spirit-god', with clear explanation that the Father-god is NOT the Son-god, who's not the 'Spirit-god' who is NOT the 'Father-god'. These three-gods (who), make up God the(what), that is the 'idea' of God, or the Churches idea of God.
It is this Trinity Doctrine that split our Creator into three (plural) so the Pagan Christian church could accept Him into their 'poly-Theistic religion'.
Maybe it is not I who butchers the English language, or any language?
Quote from: Asmodean on February 01, 2012, 09:22:03 PM
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 09:06:43 PM
Have I fallen? Help me up.
Sorry, what?!
Have you fallen? Get up, brush off the dust and move on. Don't wait for a stranger to assist you.
LOL, ... boy you sure are a 'Happy Atheist' Asmodean.
Yes, ... I do get up, .. pop my joints back in place and I go onward. Asking someone to help me just made it worse, even slowed me down ... especially that :o look on their faces when they heard the 'pop' noise.
Thank you.
If you can't figure out where the line is between using scripture to support the statements you are making and just quoting it because you think it is "the truth" then you can be banned along with all the other preachers who have come by here. Consider this fair warning.
As for everything else, it's completely pointless trying to reason with you because you are not trying at all and are wrong on so many things I don't even know where to begin.
Your posts are a bit confusing, I specially don't see why you don't consider yourself to be just as Christian as the rest who call themselves that and believe that Jesus is the son of god.
You mentioned Adam and Eve. Are you a literalist? ???
You also keep quoting bible parts. Maybe it would be simpler if you mentioned which parts you don't agree with, since it really does look like you are a bible-believing Christian. ???
As was mentioned before, 'atheism' is just an umbrella statement for a diverse group of people who don't believe in the existence of gods. You keep mentioning that you believe in a god or the "source of all being" and you call that a 'god'.
What exactly is this "source of all being". Some sort of pantheistic god? Looks a bit like Brahman... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman)
And just a tip: ease up on the bible versus, they don't really hold any argumentative value for atheists, unless you can substantiate them with evidence or arguments that are not linked to the bible. Circular reasoning can get a bit boring after a while...
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on February 02, 2012, 02:00:44 AM
Your posts are a bit confusing, I specially don't see why you don't consider yourself to be just as Christian as the rest who call themselves that and believe that Jesus is the son of god.
You mentioned Adam and Eve. Are you a literalist? ???
May I ask if you litterally believe Darwins books? How about Stephen Hawkings, .. which book or books do you take litterally?
QuoteYou also keep quoting bible parts. Maybe it would be simpler if you mentioned which parts you don't agree with, since it really does look like you are a bible-believing Christian. ???
I believe in the Bible because it answered everything that happened in my life, and helped me ask the right questions. But I have been warned over and over not to quote the Bible, ... I guess any other religious book is OK.
I am not to call myself an atheist, but it is OK for atheists to go on Christian forums and bash Jesus, God, the Bible and the concept of Jesus teachings., ... but I am not allowed to quote the Bible here... poor, very poor.
QuoteAs was mentioned before, 'atheism' is just an umbrella statement for a diverse group of people who don't believe in the existence of gods. You keep mentioning that you believe in a god or the "source of all being" and you call that a 'god'.
What exactly is this "source of all being". Some sort of pantheistic god? Looks a bit like Brahman... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman)
Do you believe in any gods? No, .. right? And that's OK. I am introducing you to the God of the Bible, only I am asked not to quote the Bible anymore. Hmm...
Is an atheist allowed to call himself a Christian on this forum, (other than me) without getting kicked off? I'm sure it would be fine, right?
QuoteAnd just a tip: ease up on the bible versus, they don't really hold any argumentative value for atheists, unless you can substantiate them with evidence or arguments that are not linked to the bible. Circular reasoning can get a bit boring after a while...
Funny, ... only the Bible cant hold up an argument on an atheist forum, but any other book may be used. ???
arian, why are you being so obtuse?
You are allowed to quote the bible IF doing so as part of an overall argument...like if you are trying to defend what the bible says. Just quoting the bible because you like it is preaching and you are not allowed to do that. If you don't like it, well, that's your problem.
What some atheists do on other forums is not in our control.
And no...an atheist would not be allowed to call themselves a Christian on this forum....and as long as this forum has been around none have tried other than a few obvious trolls who were pretending to be Christian just to make fun; the trolls were banned.
To make it perfectly clear:
THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR PREACHING OR OTHERWISE SPREADING YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS IN AN EVANGELICAL MANNER.
it is a forum for DISCUSSING various viewpoints in a REASONED and LOGICAL manner that is supported by EVIDENCE.
Some theists are intelligent enough to hang around and discuss their views without breaking the rules; others are, well, not.
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 02:58:01 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on February 02, 2012, 02:00:44 AM
Your posts are a bit confusing, I specially don't see why you don't consider yourself to be just as Christian as the rest who call themselves that and believe that Jesus is the son of god.
You mentioned Adam and Eve. Are you a literalist? ???
May I ask if you litterally believe Darwins books? How about Stephen Hawkings, .. which book or books do you take litterally?
Are Darwin's book metaphorical or written in symbolic language? ???
Just so you know, Darwin's Origin of Species contains a huge amount of observed data which he collected to support his hypothesis. Besides that, there are "extra-biological" evidence to support evolution that he had access to and made use of in his observations (Darwin didn't know about genes, though he predicted that something like them existed from which characteristics were inherited) such as geology.
I've read some criticism of Hawking's latest book that said that it gets a bit philosophical in some places, but where it's scientific, it's scientific. Facts speak for themselves. Biblical scripture, involving Adam and Eve do not, and you really can't call them Genesis 'fact' without a lot of support from extra-biblical sources. ::)
QuoteQuoteYou also keep quoting bible parts. Maybe it would be simpler if you mentioned which parts you don't agree with, since it really does look like you are a bible-believing Christian. ???
I believe in the Bible because it answered everything that happened in my life, and helped me ask the right questions. But I have been warned over and over not to quote the Bible, ... I guess any other religious book is OK.
I am not to call myself an atheist, but it is OK for atheists to go on Christian forums and bash Jesus, God, the Bible and the concept of Jesus teachings., ... but I am not allowed to quote the Bible here... poor, very poor.
You miss the point entirely. ::) Circular reasoning isn't taken very seriously here, for the simple reason that atheists don't believe the bible to be true. Also, if there was any other person of any other religion quoting any other scripture to support their own scripture (circular reasoning), then they would receive just as many eye rolls as you are now. ::)
The whole persecution complex thing is
so last two millenia. ::)
QuoteQuoteAs was mentioned before, 'atheism' is just an umbrella statement for a diverse group of people who don't believe in the existence of gods. You keep mentioning that you believe in a god or the "source of all being" and you call that a 'god'.
What exactly is this "source of all being". Some sort of pantheistic god? Looks a bit like Brahman... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman)
Do you believe in any gods? No, .. right? And that's OK. I am introducing you to the God of the Bible, only I am asked not to quote the Bible anymore. Hmm...
Is an atheist allowed to call himself a Christian on this forum, (other than me) without getting kicked off? I'm sure it would be fine, right?
Is that why you called yourself an atheist (one that claims to believe in the god of the bible)? ??? Because you're afraid that you'll get kicked off if you mentioned that you were a Christian?
QuoteQuoteAnd just a tip: ease up on the bible versus, they don't really hold any argumentative value for atheists, unless you can substantiate them with evidence or arguments that are not linked to the bible. Circular reasoning can get a bit boring after a while...
Funny, ... only the Bible cant hold up an argument on an atheist forum, but any other book may be used. ???
See above.
Quote from: Whitney on February 02, 2012, 03:18:01 AM
arian, why are you being so obtuse?
You are allowed to quote the bible IF doing so as part of an overall argument...like if you are trying to defend what the bible says. Just quoting the bible because you like it is preaching and you are not allowed to do that. If you don't like it, well, that's your problem.
May I ask which part of the Bible that I could defend that you do not consider preaching? If you can point even to one Scripture I used as a tool for preaching, I'll get out of your hair and leave the forum.
QuoteWhat some atheists do on other forums is not in our control.
Agreed.
QuoteAnd no...an atheist would not be allowed to call themselves a Christian on this forum....and as long as this forum has been around none have tried other than a few obvious trolls who were pretending to be Christian just to make fun; the trolls were banned.
Do I sound like I'm making fun of Atheists? I like fun as much as the next guy, and know the place and time for it. I make my stand of what I meant by being an atheist clear, my God of the Bible is NOT amongst the theistic religions and their gods. If this is a cause for debate, .. well I thought I was on the right forum for that. But if I'm to be silenced, shoot, .. I might as well go to the Jehovah Witnesses and let them try to excommunicate me.
QuoteTo make it perfectly clear:
THIS IS NOT A FORUM FOR PREACHING OR OTHERWISE SPREADING YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS IN AN EVANGELICAL MANNER.
it is a forum for DISCUSSING various viewpoints in a REASONED and LOGICAL manner that is supported by EVIDENCE.
Are you saying that you are no different than the other Christian denominations where only the 'like-minded' are allowed in? WHAT religious beliefs? I thought you don't believe in god or gods? Without the belief in gods, what religion are you talking about? Hey, let a Christian come on this forum and try to convince me about some Christian denomination, I welcome the challenge. I would not discriminate or put any 'handycap' on them, they could use whatever version of the Bible they want, or whatever book they wish, the TRUTH ALWAY PREVAILS.
QuoteSome theists are intelligent enough to hang around and discuss their views without breaking the rules; others are, well, not.
red flag; "theists here discussing their views". What about, their god or gods? Thats automaticly preaching.
And that without breaking the rules, ... now that I want to stick around to see?
I did not come here to preach about some god or gods, that would be preaching. I was hoping to reveal the so far puzling scientific question, where is the universe residing in. Where was the tiny universe the size of a pin-head residing in at the moment of the bang? Or was there a big-bang? I know and can prove it.
I can also prove that 'nothing' exists, and many other things that theists can never explain, nor can science. Why, are you afraid to see the truth?
Then you are not real Atheists, not the open minded, non religious ones I was hoping to find.
But I still love you all, and that my friend is as real as the ground you're standing on.
(I know, .. I know, 'Im not standing on the ground. What ground, we are nothing but energy, we are simply information acting on information' etc.. I heard it all)
Arian, certain aspects of your posts sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW, or do you have any affiliation with them?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 02, 2012, 04:36:09 AM
Arian, certain aspects of your posts sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW, or do you have any affiliation with them?
No my friend, but I do agree with about 75% of what they believe from the Bible, as I do with the Seventh Day Adventists. A lot of good messages can be found in the Baptist religion also.
It is too bad that they all have accepted a theistic god or gods, and allow some self proclaimed Prophet of theirs reinterpret the rest of the 25% of the Bible for them.
Kind of 'so close, yet still so far'. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and they all blindly follow him. Sad.
Nope, ... I'm an atheist, I don't believe in their god or gods, nor their religions. HE is all I need, and Jesus is the only way. The Bible explains it all.
Why, were you one of them?
You intrigue me. So you call yourself a bible believing atheist because you don't believe that Jesus was a god? ???
arian, I don't see a point in trying to clear anything up for you because no matter what I say you are going to twist it into me persecuting your in some way. It's not like you are the only theist (no, I don't care what you think you are) on these boards; one just addressed you in this thread....ask one of them to explain the rules to you. You'll have to actually read through the forum to figure out who some of the theists are (unless they choose to approach you).
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 02, 2012, 04:36:09 AM
Arian, certain aspects of your posts sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW, or do you have any affiliation with them?
Nope, ... I'm an atheist, I don't believe in their god or gods, nor their religions. HE is all I need, and Jesus is the only way.
No, you're a theist. You refer to a higher being, and then you refer to Jesus as a higher being of some sort too. Either you know this, which is offensive, or you really believe in your flawed logic, which is scary.
You are not discussing, you are preaching. We have pointed out to you multiple times why we disagree, and you fall back to bible verse. Bible verse is not a valid argument. There is no empirical evidence behind what you say. Your circular reasoning of "because the bible says so" is a weak one.
I hope someday you get it. Please open your eyes a bit and think before you speak again
Quote from: Whitney on February 02, 2012, 05:06:18 AM
arian, I don't see a point in trying to clear anything up for you because no matter what I say you are going to twist it into me persecuting your in some way. It's not like you are the only theist (no, I don't care what you think, you are) on these boards; one just addressed you in this thread....ask one of them to explain the rules to you. You'll have to actually read through the forum to figure out who some of the theists are (unless they choose to approach you).
Quote: "It's not like you are the only theist (no, I don't care what you think, you are"Yes maam, anything you say maam.
May I join your 'freethinkers' society? Maybe there you will allow me to express myself and let 'me' be 'me'?
Quote from: Firebird on February 02, 2012, 05:26:16 AM
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 02, 2012, 04:36:09 AM
Arian, certain aspects of your posts sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW, or do you have any affiliation with them?
Nope, ... I'm an atheist, I don't believe in their god or gods, nor their religions. HE is all I need, and Jesus is the only way.
No, you're a theist. You refer to a higher being, and then you refer to Jesus as a higher being of some sort too. Either you know this, which is offensive, or you really believe in your flawed logic, which is scary.
Bible-God, or 'He that Is' is not a being, but a 'source of being'. The Son of God is a begotten being, superior to all other beings.
The theistic gods are 'supernatural beings', who are actually demonic spirits, it is Satan and his angels. The dieties created by religions are real demonic beings, which the religious form idols of and think they are real gods. Our Creator is not jelous of those idols, no, He is jelous of our belief in such nonesence. If youyou provided for your kids all their lives and they went in the back yard every time you gave them something, and they bowed down before a pine-tree and and start thanking it for all you have done for them, you'd get jelous too.
QuoteYou are not discussing, you are preaching. We have pointed out to you multiple times why we disagree, and you fall back to bible verse. Bible verse is not a valid argument. There is no empirical evidence behind what you say. Your circular reasoning of "because the bible says so" is a weak one.
I hope someday you get it. Please open your eyes a bit and think before you speak again
But you are not preaching?
Not only that, but you are trying to 'indoctrinate me' with your beliefs that the Bible might not be real, and even useless as far as information value. You are trying to make me 'believe' that all books are OK, except the Bible, yet there are more Bibles out there than any other book??? Please, ... I will NOT obey your trickery. I have left religion behind me and not you or anyone here will force me back into it again. I am an atheist and I refuse to listen to some divination of lies. You may believe' what you want and follow that 'belief' religiously for all I care, just don't try to indoctrinate me with it.
Please, this is what I ran away from, those so called Christians trying to indoctrinate me, .. and now see here, it's getting worse than there!
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here? ... any, ... oh yea, ... I was told to help myself. Thanks.
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 01:10:47 AM
Quote from: Asmodean on February 01, 2012, 09:22:03 PM
Quote from: arian on February 01, 2012, 09:06:43 PM
Have I fallen? Help me up.
Sorry, what?!
Have you fallen? Get up, brush off the dust and move on. Don't wait for a stranger to assist you.
LOL, ... boy you sure are a 'Happy Atheist' Asmodean.
Yes, ... I do get up, .. pop my joints back in place and I go onward. Asking someone to help me just made it worse, even slowed me down ... especially that :o look on their faces when they heard the 'pop' noise.
Thank you.
Happy? Me? I sure as shit aint sad at the moment, although happy might be pushing it. ;D
Knowing when to ask for help is useful - vital even; but asking for help with every scrape and bruise... Why?
That's my point.
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 06:45:35 AM
The theistic gods are 'supernatural beings', who are actually demonic spirits, it is Satan and his angels.
Arian, you clearly have no idea what atheism is. You're not an atheist, as every atheist on this forum is telling you. To me, you're clearly a Christian, prove to me you're not. I asked you before and you declined to answer, please answer me now.
In what way do your beliefs differ from those of Christians? I see
no difference.
You appear to hold the same ridiculous intolerant beliefs that led to the brutal suppression and persecution of non-Christians in Europe from the fourth century onwards, that all the other gods apart from yours are 'actually demonic spirits, it is Satan and his angels'. That's a very unpleasant and dangerous mindset that has led to countless thousands being murdered and forcibly converted to Christianity in the past.
The fact that you also seem to believe that myths like Adam and Eve represent historical reality suggest to me that your kind of Christianity is the sort that prevailed in the Dark Ages. Thankfully, the rest of the world has moved on from those ignorant times.
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 06:45:35 AMAny real Atheists out there who could help me here? ... any, ... oh yea, ... I was told to help myself. Thanks.
Though I call myself an infidel, as you will note on the left of this post, I qualify as an atheist as well, due to my lack of belief in a god or gods of any kind.
I won't hold my breath waiting for a reply to
my latest post addressed to you (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9225.msg150948#msg150948) in this thread. (It's conveniently linked, in case you happened to miss it,
arian.)
I will however offer you a little help with a simple and easy to understand logical sequence. It won't hurt my feelings if you ignore both the post referred to above, and the following piece of logic. I understand that sometimes when people face something that they can't cope with, they simply choose to ignore it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. Atheists do not believe in the existence of a god or gods
of any kind; no exceptions.
2. A certain person believes in the existence of what he chooses to call a "non-theistic God."
3. That certain person is not an atheist, despite his repeated insistence that he is.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Is that the sort of help you were looking for,
arian? Do you understand the logical sequence above? If not, please clarify for me what help you are looking for, or what you don't understand in the sequence. I'd hate for an honest and sincere person such as yourself to think that he couldn't get any help here.
Maybe you will have to invent a new term to describe yourself accurately. One suggestion: "Non-religious believer in the Bible God."
I have not yet completely discounted the possibility that you are sincerely trying to communicate your ideas,
arian. The thing is, communication entails both parties understanding and agreeing on the terms being used. If I were to describe for you a technique in carpentry, and began by telling you, "First, measure the length of the zucchini and cut it precisely in half," you might question whether I were talking about carpentry at all. If I am talking about carpentry, when I say "zucchini," am I talking about a 2x4 or a sheet of plywood? Do you see what the problem is,
arian? You're trying to tell us about your thoughts, and have said that you're trying to teach. Yet you start by (in figurative terms) calling a piece of wood a vegetable. If I were trying to tell a group of people about carpentry, yet insisted that wood is actually an edible vegetable, they would be justified in questioning my intent, my definition, and the reliability of my information, no matter how skilled in carpentry I happen to be.
You call yourself an atheist. You don't consider yourself a christian, but you do believe in the god of the bible. :-\
It is quite possible that you don't conform with any of the presently existing christian sects, which is fine, but since you do believe that there is a god (any version of a god) you are certainly NOT an atheist.
Understand this: If you believe in the existence of a deiety of any kind or form, you are a theist. Perhaps not a christian or a Jehowas Witness, or a jew, or any other lable of religion, but certainly a theist.
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 06:12:06 AM
May I join your 'freethinkers' society?
you are not a freethinker either.
You've ignored my last posts as well, which just leaves me fired up to keep pushing. ;D
I'm still confused as to why you keep calling yourself an atheist, though your description of your beliefs do not fit that label. ??? As has been said repeatedly, 'atheism' is an umbrella statement for people who hold no beliefs in any gods whatsoever (not just atheistic gods), not even any god not yet thought up by people. Though most of us are open to evidence, no evidence has ever been put forth. It's pure skepticism, not close-mindeness.
Ecurb posted a link some time ago about a guy named Marcion who said that the god of the OT was different from the god of the NT. Are you thinking about something along those lines, but pertaining to the entire bible?
You're an odd one, that's for sure...
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 06:45:35 AM
Quote from: Firebird on February 02, 2012, 05:26:16 AM
Quote from: arian on February 02, 2012, 04:49:42 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on February 02, 2012, 04:36:09 AM
Arian, certain aspects of your posts sound like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Are you a JW, or do you have any affiliation with them?
Nope, ... I'm an atheist, I don't believe in their god or gods, nor their religions. HE is all I need, and Jesus is the only way.
No, you're a theist. You refer to a higher being, and then you refer to Jesus as a higher being of some sort too. Either you know this, which is offensive, or you really believe in your flawed logic, which is scary.
Bible-God, or 'He that Is' is not a being, but a 'source of being'. The Son of God is a begotten being, superior to all other beings.
The theistic gods are 'supernatural beings', who are actually demonic spirits, it is Satan and his angels. The dieties created by religions are real demonic beings, which the religious form idols of and think they are real gods. Our Creator is not jelous of those idols, no, He is jelous of our belief in such nonesence. If youyou provided for your kids all their lives and they went in the back yard every time you gave them something, and they bowed down before a pine-tree and and start thanking it for all you have done for them, you'd get jelous too.
QuoteYou are not discussing, you are preaching. We have pointed out to you multiple times why we disagree, and you fall back to bible verse. Bible verse is not a valid argument. There is no empirical evidence behind what you say. Your circular reasoning of "because the bible says so" is a weak one.
I hope someday you get it. Please open your eyes a bit and think before you speak again
But you are not preaching?
Not only that, but you are trying to 'indoctrinate me' with your beliefs that the Bible might not be real, and even useless as far as information value. You are trying to make me 'believe' that all books are OK, except the Bible, yet there are more Bibles out there than any other book??? Please, ... I will NOT obey your trickery. I have left religion behind me and not you or anyone here will force me back into it again. I am an atheist and I refuse to listen to some divination of lies. You may believe' what you want and follow that 'belief' religiously for all I care, just don't try to indoctrinate me with it.
You are twisting my words, as usual. Nowhere did I say "all book are OK except the Bible". There are plenty of other books I disagree with (the Koran, Dianetics, anything by Sarah Palin, etc). I said the bible has no empirical evidence behind it. If I'm wrong, show me where. If you can't, then I say it's not a basis for fact. I apply that standard to anything I read. You apparently do not.
Crying "indoctrination!" is a cop-out. You are the one who put forth an argument (that you are an atheist and there's really some form of "god" or higher being based on stories from the bible) and I am arguing that you are wrong. Instead of debating why you think I'm wrong, you accuse me of indoctrination to try and distract from the fact that you have no counter-argument.
Anyway, this has been fun, but I've had enough. Come back when you have some evidence to back up your claims.
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
Quote from: pytheas on February 02, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
That's the sort of comment one may think, but is advised not to type. ;)
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 07:35:52 PM
Quote from: pytheas on February 02, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
That's the sort of comment one may think, but is advised not to type. ;)
Ah, but he could have meant The Dawkins, for example, as "professional help"
Quote from: Asmodean on February 02, 2012, 07:41:02 PM
Quote from: Tank on February 02, 2012, 07:35:52 PM
Quote from: pytheas on February 02, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
That's the sort of comment one may think, but is advised not to type. ;)
Ah, but he could have meant The Dawkins, for example, as "professional help"
True! I stand corrected!
Just going with the original quote and doing some honest not-reading-between-the-lines.
Quote from: pytheas on February 02, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
Nice to post something I'm not allowed to isn't it?
I have explained pretty clearly why I say most here are NOT atheists, just read your posts on your 'religious' forums, and you will see. Atheists don't have those issues with God or gods as you all here seem to have.
'God is this and god is that. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent he would never do this or that. Look at Gods version of love and point to children starving in Africa and so on, ... That is not atheism.
Atheists listen to what I have to say with great interest because they really don't know the real meaning of God, .. or gods. Then they eveluate everything I say by the sources I use, the understanding I came to from experiences I claim, and so on. What you have created here is a religion no different than the Christians and all those other religions.
As for the others who responded, I ask that you re-read my posts and try debating that, not generalize;
'you need proffecional help arian, you are ignorant of our language, your trolling, stop quoting Scripture and prove your point on the Bible, etc.' does not show an honest intent to debate, but a clear message; "get off of here, Just ignore him etc." but it does seem like a common practice here to keep the conversation to mockery of, and not to even try to understand the other poster regarding God or gods.
1 Cor 13:11-12
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
NKJV
Quote from: arian on February 05, 2012, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: pytheas on February 02, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
Nice to post something I'm not allowed to isn't it?
I have explained pretty clearly why I say most here are NOT atheists, just read your posts on your 'religious' forums, and you will see. Atheists don't have those issues with God or gods as you all here seem to have.
'God is this and god is that. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent he would never do this or that. Look at Gods version of love and point to children starving in Africa and so on, ... That is not atheism.
Atheists listen to what I have to say with great interest because they really don't know the real meaning of God, .. or gods. Then they eveluate everything I say by the sources I use, the understanding I came to from experiences I claim, and so on. What you have created here is a religion no different than the Christians and all those other religions.
As for the others who responded, I ask that you re-read my posts and try debating that, not generalize; 'you need proffecional help arian, you are ignorant of our language, your trolling, stop quoting Scripture and prove your point on the Bible, etc.' does not show an honest intent to debate, but a clear message; "get off of here, Just ignore him etc." but it does seem like a common practice here to keep the conversation to mockery of, and not to even try to understand the other poster regarding God or gods.
1 Cor 13:11-12
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
NKJV
I think it's about time you took some of your own advice,
Coming to an atheist forum and spouting an inaccurate definition of atheism and then telling atheists they are not atheists is Trolling. You are behaving like a troll and as such I am suspending your ability to post for 7 days to allow you to consider your behaviour. If you choose to return you will need to stop trolling or the next suspension will be a permaban. Tank.
Quote from: arian on February 05, 2012, 09:32:03 PM
Quote from: pytheas on February 02, 2012, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: arian
Any real Atheists out there who could help me here?
Arian
I recommend you seek professional help
Nice to post something I'm not allowed to isn't it?
I have explained pretty clearly why I say most here are NOT atheists, just read your posts on your 'religious' forums, and you will see. Atheists don't have those issues with God or gods as you all here seem to have.
'God is this and god is that. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent he would never do this or that. Look at Gods version of love and point to children starving in Africa and so on, ... That is not atheism.
Atheists listen to what I have to say with great interest because they really don't know the real meaning of God, .. or gods. Then they eveluate everything I say by the sources I use, the understanding I came to from experiences I claim, and so on. What you have created here is a religion no different than the Christians and all those other religions.
As for the others who responded, I ask that you re-read my posts and try debating that, not generalize; 'you need proffecional help arian, you are ignorant of our language, your trolling, stop quoting Scripture and prove your point on the Bible, etc.' does not show an honest intent to debate, but a clear message; "get off of here, Just ignore him etc." but it does seem like a common practice here to keep the conversation to mockery of, and not to even try to understand the other poster regarding God or gods.
1 Cor 13:11-12
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
NKJV
Arian is now banned for 7 days.
Arian...you had been warned for everything you said in the above post that violated forum rules.
The quote you decided to jump on about your needing professional help was already hand slapped by tank...so, yet again, you were wrong in pretending like you are persecuted here.
Yet again, you posted a bible verse for no purpose other than to preach.
That was impressive! While I was noting the ban somebody else gave arian a 7 day ban without knowing what I was writing! Great minds think alike!
I think we both banned him at the same time..oh well, they'll both expire at about the same time too. I called it "!arian" you probably just called the ban "arian"
I didn't creat a ban you'd got there already. Obviously you banned than commented while I commented and then went to raise a ban!
I don't care who was first. Well deserved hitting with the ban stick.
Quote from: Guardian85 on February 05, 2012, 10:01:25 PM
I don't care who was first. Well deserved hitting with the ban stick.
Well he gets one more chance when he gets back, if he chooses to come back.
Quote from: arian on February 05, 2012, 09:32:03 PM
I have explained pretty clearly why I say most here are NOT atheists, just read your posts on your 'religious' forums, and you will see. Atheists don't have those issues with God or gods as you all here seem to have.
'God is this and god is that. If God is omnipotent, omnipresent he would never do this or that. Look at Gods version of love and point to children starving in Africa and so on, ... That is not atheism.
(As usual, I'm a dollar short and a ban late. Since Arian can read the posts however, I'll still bring up the questions I have.)
Why not? Why wouldn't we have opinions about something that affects our lives, on a daily basis depending on where we live? Why wouldn't we have an opinion on something many of us grew up being taught to believe, and sometimes gave up under gut-wrenching circumstances? That sort of thing creates issues.
QuoteAtheists listen to what I have to say with great interest because they really don't know the real meaning of God, .. or gods. Then they eveluate everything I say by the sources I use, the understanding I came to from experiences I claim, and so on.
This sounds to me like an ignorance that is incredible in modern Western society. In other words, extremely hard to believe.
QuoteWhat you have created here is a religion no different than the Christians and all those other religions.
Having no belief in god is a religion? So many of the religious claim this and it's such a silly thing to say, it seems like a way of saying "oh yeah, well you do it too!" Bill Maher explains this better than I do: Atheism not a religion (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8U_JveHS8E)
I've read your posts, at least as much as I was able to, and they didn't really explain anything. To start off with there's your position that you're a god-believing atheist, which is like saying there's an egg-laying species that gives live birth (nobody bring up those snakes that give live birth to snaklings in a leather-like sack, you know what I mean).
Atheism means literally, and very simply, "no god" or "without god". You keep talking about the bible-god which is by definition a god whether you think it's a theistic god or not. And if it isn't a theistic god, what kind of god is it? If it's a non-god, why do you refer to it as a god? If it's the bible god it's not a deistic one and theist and deist are the only two options I'm aware of that cover god-belief.
Are you saying there's some other form of god-believer than theists and deists? Can you explain in a simple and sensible fashion how it is a god and not covered by the word "theistic"?
Lasted longer than I thought before the first ban.
Since I didn't want to mention it as part of my admin red message I figured I'd mention it now.
In response to Arian claiming that none of us are atheists. Does that actually bother anyone? I know I don't care if someone else thinks I'm an atheist or not; I have no emotional connection to the label itself. The only time it's actually annoying is when Christians (usually it's chrsitians, but also others) use the "you're not an atheist you are just backslidden" or "atheists worship satan" line or similar phrases because then they are trying to tell me what the feel I am thinking rather than listening and that's where I start to care as it breeds bigotry.
Arian obviously lacks the ability, for whatever reason, to properly define a number of words that are essential to understanding key terms that relate to discussing positions on the existence of god....that's his problem; not mine. I do find it sad that instead of just wanting to discuss that he has found the need to take an abrasive tone, claim persecution that's not there, and troll just to make himself feel special/smart or whatever it is that it does for him when he acts that way.
Arian, I strongly suggest that YOU re-read what you have posted here and pay careful attention to how others have responded to you and why they responded they way they did. Think about how you could have better approached us. Think about how very odd it is that you feel you are apparently the only person in the world that understands god...just think about it and honestly reflect. I don't care if you believe in god, I don't care if you believe in the bible, I don't even care if you don't want to be called a Christian even though you technically could be labeled as one. And I don't think many other HAF members care about all that either. What most of us DO care about is how believers conduct themselves towards those who have differing views. What do you think it is about what and how you have posted here that is getting poor responses and causing moderators to have to warn/ban you? If it helps, imagine that HAF is a home and we are throwing an open casual debate party; how would you conduct yourself in that setting? How long do you think you would have been welcome at the party if you acted the way you have here online?
Quote from: Whitney on February 06, 2012, 02:32:55 AM
In response to Arian claiming that none of us are atheists. Does that actually bother anyone?
It bothers me to a certain degree, like his claim of being a god-believing atheist, because I don't understand it. Things I don't understand always bug me until I decide it's simply beyond me and I give up on it. Pretty much the story of me and religion.
No, it doesn't bother me. I know what I am and I'm pretty sure I know what an atheist is much better than he does. What bothered me was when he was acting persecuted when we pointed out the holes in his argument. Having a back and forth conversation with him might have been interesting if not for that. But he reminds me too much of the bible thumpers instead of someone interested in a legitimate discussion/argument.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on February 06, 2012, 03:33:34 AM
like his claim of being a god-believing atheist
Now...that one does bother me. Not because it doesn't make sense, though not making sense is in general annoying on a pet peeve level, but him presenting that view to other theists would only further confuse them on what an atheist is or isn't.
I also use bother in the sense that it's emotionally bothering and annoy when something just irks me a bit. Perhaps they are actually more interchangeable than that.
Yeah, the absolute refusal to use normal definitions of words (like atheist) was bothersome to me. It doesn't bother me that he doesn't think I'm an atheist, because he doesn't even acknowledge what an atheist actually is.
Quote "I don't know what you mean by 'glory,' " Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't—till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "
"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master that's all."
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"
I couldn't decide on a humpty, the first one is good, the second one is falling, the third is firmly seated and not likeable. The third is probably most appropriate.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRyqGD6rwMR49NfJcZxODzH87J3DXO-a978Ha8NNGuu0yAUzt_0H_fOh5g&hash=ff925fbe1020deb942cf40db9abcda869a76b87c) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcTm_EMxX9Khn5kYJuteCK9vF2XOJ6hwjwqezH2Fox_8OXqPxS4ZrxvnQw&hash=78f612e67618b7c483e6ebdad6882653e2afc73c) (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcRUw8U5TdqOQqdAaLExOc7A3ZfTM3gKOCvyHS05BOabVrU2tzXr_Qy_iw&hash=e8ee7a22abb2c66341b9032e8b85101950589790)
Brilliant MagicPud. If only misguided religious folk were as harmless as Humpty Dumpty, the world would be a far better place.
I like the idea of verbs having a temper and being unruly.
I love both the Alice books, they're wonderful. I've got a nice acid blotter on my mantlepiece based on 'Alice through the Looking Glass' (http://www.blotterart.net/gallery/album22/bluealice)
Wow . . . just read through the whole thread. Does this sort of thing happen often? :o
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 07, 2012, 06:37:14 AM
Wow . . . just read through the whole thread. Does this sort of thing happen often? :o
No. arian holds a unique world view in my experience.
Quote from: Dobermonster on February 07, 2012, 06:37:14 AM
Wow . . . just read through the whole thread. Does this sort of thing happen often? :o
This specifically does not happen a lot, but there are some theists who like to play the victim everytime they dig themselves into the proverbial hole and we come and say: "Hey, you in a hoe!"
Spilled coffee in the keyboard. The damn L is a little slow.
Same story with my c on this machine.