"God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him" 1 John 4:16
Love is extremely complex but how would you define love?
"If you love something let it go free. If it doesn't come back, you never had it. If it comes back, love it forever" seems to be a fantastic quote and expresses the freedom aspect of love that most of us hopefully understand.
Going by this quote above, Love does not mean captivity, Love does not mean coercion, Love does not mean conceited manipulation.
Would one consider an abusive relationship where the abuser demands obedience from the abused and delivers physical and mental abuse for disobedience, would one consider this love?
This human abuser can only abuse for a limited amount of time, can only abuse in limited terms, but God...
Those that believe and obey the god's law go to heaven for eternal happiness, those that do not believe or disobey the god's law go to hell for eternal torment.
Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).
Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16)
Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8)
he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10)
and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50)
And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever (Revelation 14:11)
If given the choice of either an abusive partner's love or god's love I would choose the abusive partner. At least that way I could potentially escape that predicament, but at worst, it will undoubtedly, one way or another, come to a desperately desired end.
Can someone please explain how God is Love?
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 10:59:33 PM
"God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him" 1 John 4:16
"If you love something let it go free. If it doesn't come back, you never had it. If it comes back, love it forever" seems to be a fantastic quote and expresses the freedom aspect of love that most of us hopefully understand.
Going by this quote above, Love does not mean captivity, Love does not mean coercion, Love does not mean conceited manipulation.
Can someone please explain how God is Love?
I think you already did above in your own words. And if you think about it, *YOU have been let go to do as you see as reasonable or more intelligent. If you haven't come back, you're not His...the fictional God, that is.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:32:29 PM
I think you already did above in your own words. And if you think about it, *YOU have been let go to do as you see as reasonable or more intelligent. If you haven't come back, you're not His...the fictional God, that is.
But then the fictional god presumably would then torture me in hell for my crimes against him. Are you able to explain how this is a display of love?
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 11:43:14 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:32:29 PM
I think you already did above in your own words. And if you think about it, *YOU have been let go to do as you see as reasonable or more intelligent. If you haven't come back, you're not His...the fictional God, that is.
But then the fictional god presumably would then torture me in hell for my crimes against him. Are you able to explain how this is a display of love?
Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child? You seem to know all the information, yet choose to disregard it. If you know the consequences, then what complaint have you?
Torture...no. Death...yes.
It didn't take you long to put out that fallacy, AD. When are you going to stop equating a supernatural entity with humans?
1 John 4:7-21 (ASV):
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is begotten of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9 Herein was the love of God manifested in us, that God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world that we might live through him.
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12 No man hath beheld God at any time: if we love one another, God abideth in us, and his love is perfected in us:
13 hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14 And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father hath sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God.
16 And we know and have believed the love which God hath in us. God is love; and he that abideth in love abideth in God, and God abideth in him.
17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love, because he first loved us.
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen.
21 And this commandment have we from him, that he who loveth God love his brother also.
_________________________________________________________
That is probably the quintessential Christian scripture pertaining to "God is love".
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:54:37 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 24, 2012, 11:43:14 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:32:29 PM
I think you already did above in your own words. And if you think about it, *YOU have been let go to do as you see as reasonable or more intelligent. If you haven't come back, you're not His...the fictional God, that is.
But then the fictional god presumably would then torture me in hell for my crimes against him. Are you able to explain how this is a display of love?
Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child? You seem to know all the information, yet choose to disregard it. If you know the consequences, then what complaint have you?
Torture...no. Death...yes.
What is meant by the following:
1. he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10)
2. and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50)
3. And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever (Revelation 14:11)
My parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:54:37 PM
Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child?
I would doubt a parent's love if they tortured their child, and I would doubt their sanity if they tortured their child with fire. I would also doubt both the love and the sanity of a parent who killed their child (no matter how "humanely") for disagreeing with them.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:56:05 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:54:37 PM
Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child?
I would doubt a parent's love if they tortured their child, and I would doubt their sanity if they tortured their child with fire. I would also doubt both the love and the sanity of a parent who killed their child (no matter how "humanely") for disagreeing with them.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:56:05 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:54:37 PM
Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child?
I would doubt a parent's love if they tortured their child, and I would doubt their sanity if they tortured their child with fire. I would also doubt both the love and the sanity of a parent who killed their child (no matter how "humanely") for disagreeing with them.
The scary bit is that this is not obvious to a lot of people.
That is why I am Dionysus incarnate
Quote from: Gawen on January 25, 2012, 01:12:25 AM
1 John 4:7-21 (ASV):
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is begotten of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Doth God hath a lithp?
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:19:17 AM
Quote from: Gawen on January 25, 2012, 01:12:25 AM
1 John 4:7-21 (ASV):
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is begotten of God, and knoweth God.
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Doth God hath a lithp?
I....don't think God doeth....but.....King Jameth muth have had.
God said, "Don't eat this", but they did anyway. Which of you would not punish your own children for eating something you told them not to? Some disgustingly lax parents would think that eating food with horrible effects would be its own punishment.
Me, I raised two kids; a son and daughter. When they were still young enough not to know right from wrong, not knowing what death is because they hadn't seen anything die, I put a plate of cookies in front of them and told them that they'd die if they ate it, and then I left and stayed away for a while.
When I came back, some of the cookies were gone. Well, they told me that the dog came along and ate one of the cookies. And the daughter (the oldest) claimed that the dog told her that it was OK, that I hadn't poisoned the cookies. So she ate one, and then talked her brother into eating another.
Now, what parent likes being disobeyed? For eating the cookies, I kicked them out into the woods, naked except for their underwear (because I couldn't find fig leaves) where they could have incest with each other, and posted a guard to shoot them if they came back. The dog? I cut off his legs.
My fundy neighbors tell me I showed Godly love.
Quote from: Gawen on January 25, 2012, 12:37:11 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:19:17 AM
Doth God hath a lithp?
I....don't think God doeth....but.....King Jameth muth have had.
Jesus may have, he had a scary father.
I think that can be an indicative thingy.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 25, 2012, 12:48:03 PM
Quote from: Gawen on January 25, 2012, 12:37:11 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:19:17 AM
Doth God hath a lithp?
I....don't think God doeth....but.....King Jameth muth have had.
Jesus may have, he had a scary father.
I think that can be an indicative thingy.
If Jesus had a scary father, I reckon he would st..st..stutter...*winkin with a grin*
And pee in his loin cloth a lot...
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:54:37 PMDo you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child? You seem to know all the information, yet choose to disregard it. If you know the consequences, then what complaint have you?
Torture...no. Death...yes.
There's a couple things here that bug me, that always have. I wish God would explain it better, yet he does not, Himself and through his follower.
One thing is mentioned in Stevil's post, If you love something, set it free. Letting us have Free Will on Earth, with the threat of violence if we don't do what He wants is not freedom. I've heard this one said many times, never seen anything that answers this reasonably.
He also wants a love that is unhealthy; He wants us to be clingy to Him, without assurance that He's going to be consistent in helping us when we're in trouble. Because He is inconsistent, He is untrustworthy and we're really better off relying on ourselves. If He were going to encourage a more healthy love between Himself and Humans, I think He should encourage us to rely on ourselves; teach us the things we need to know and give us self reliance.
Finally, I know that punishment is brought in as part of the "Love" picture. Well, punishment best as instructive and corrective, and I don't think any of us here would have a problem if God's punishments seemed more carefully measured and reasonable, and He wasn't punishing over a fundamental disagreement about us wanting to have separation from Him. The idea of Hell is that it is punishment that cannot be learned from. It's punitive all the way, and that's not love. That just like the U.S. punitive system at it's worst, when it serves no purpose for society and the criminals other than to punish, for the sense of "satisfaction" that punishment is being dealt out, but doesn't fix the problem.
So God (and a fair chunk of his followers) have so bad a need to have satisfaction of justice, I guess? The thing is, there are some of us who know that in certain circumstances, there is no justice, and we just have to get over ourselves, for our own health so we can get on with getting along. Not all of us humans necessarily want punishment for the sake of punishment, for the sake of tormenting a person for doing wrong by us.
So, we humans can get over the need to punish. Yet God can't? Something we can do that He can't or won't? Who is really the lesser being in this circumstance, then? We can show compassion, where God cannot. Seems like He can't love better than us, that we are capable of giving a person more individual freedom than He can on an individual basis.
I've already said how I think He should experience love from me. I honestly wonder if, during the course of receiving the kind of love I've decided I would like to show, could He reasonably complain in the course of me giving Him a perfect duplication of my life. I'll bet there's someone out there with an even better life to test Him with His notions of what love is. What if we threw Him into Hell, and told Him we were doing it to love him? I think I could see Him complaining about fairness and justice and love, when the shoe is on the other foot. And I'll bet many humans would be willing to be more compassionate toward him in the end than what He shows us; that feels very believable. We might not be willing to let Him suffer eternally for a finite number of sins against us (the suffering a single person puts up with here in His creation), which suggests we are more capable of compassion than He is.
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 25, 2012, 01:23:40 PM
We might not be willing to let Him suffer eternally for a finite number of sins against us (the suffering a single person puts up with here in His creation), which suggests we are more capable of compassion than He is.
Suggests to me that not only was god created by human beings, but created to appeal to the lowest common denominator.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 01:13:47 AM
What is meant by the following:
1. he will be tortured with fire and sulfur in front of the holy angels and in front of the Lamb (Revelation 14:10)
2. and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:50)
3. And the smoke from their torture will go up forever and ever (Revelation 14:11)
The answer is the same as:
2 Peter 2:4-7
Jude 1:5-7
Quote from: StevilMy parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?
I'm sure they loved you. The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you. Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
Quote from: StevilMy parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?
I'm sure they loved you. The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you. Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)
So you've got a parent who says to their kid "if you stay out past 10 p.m. I'm going to beat you senseless". The kid stays out past 10 p.m., maybe for a good reason and maybe not, and the parent beats the kid senseless. You're saying this is OK behavior on the parent's part, and the kid should have no complaint with it?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 04:01:19 PM
So you've got a parent who says to their kid "if you stay out past 10 p.m. I'm going to beat you senseless". The kid stays out past 10 p.m., maybe for a good reason and maybe not, and the parent beats the kid senseless. You're saying this is OK behavior on the parent's part, and the kid should have no complaint with it?
Clearly you've interpreted the consequence as a beating when it is in fact (according to the piece of fiction) simply death. That death comes apparently by fire. Whether you or I agree to this method is not even up for debate...if this god is really God. Again, one would need to understand, or at least have the information through which to understand, the many points that relate to this death as a result of simply eating a fruit. If it were that simple, I'd be a militant (one who actively campaigns against God as opposed to one that simply doesn't believe in god(s)) Atheist.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 04:01:19 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
Quote from: StevilMy parents always kept me away from fire and sulfur, they never tortured me and never threw me into a fiery furnace. Does this mean they didn't love me?
I'm sure they loved you. The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you. Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)
So you've got a parent who says to their kid "if you stay out past 10 p.m. I'm going to beat you senseless". The kid stays out past 10 p.m., maybe for a good reason and maybe not, and the parent beats the kid senseless. You're saying this is OK behavior on the parent's part, and the kid should have no complaint with it?
...and of course, the child chose its fate. It was the child's fate, it wasn't the parent whom chose to beat the poor kid. The Christian god is one sick Mo Fo.
How Christians can believe in it and love the idea of it is beyond me, they seem like a bunch of desperate whipped puppies.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 03:48:35 PM
The point being that the fictional punishment is known...clearly...by *you. Yet you're able to intelligently choose your fictional fate...and it would seem, gladly. (according to the piece of fiction, of course.)
But clearly you keep getting confused. I am not a fictional character and I do not exist in this fictional hell hole that is described in the fictional bible. It would be like you telling me that I know that if I tap my shoes together then I (and Toto) will leave Oz and will be magically whisked off back to my home in Kansas.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
But clearly you keep getting confused. I am not a fictional character and I do not exist in this fictional hell hole that is described in the fictional bible. It would be like you telling me that I know that if I tap my shoes together then I (and Toto) will leave Oz and will be magically whisked off back to my home in Kansas.
I'm not certain YOU understand this yourself since I am simply replying to a thread you've started on this fairytale. The fact is we are not discussing the relevance of clicking one's shoes together are we? Why do you keep bringing up these topics if they are fiction? I'm not the one confused here.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 06:47:30 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 06:16:16 PM
But clearly you keep getting confused. I am not a fictional character and I do not exist in this fictional hell hole that is described in the fictional bible. It would be like you telling me that I know that if I tap my shoes together then I (and Toto) will leave Oz and will be magically whisked off back to my home in Kansas.
I'm not certain YOU understand this yourself since I am simply replying to a thread you've started on this fairytale. The fact is we are not discussing the relevance of clicking one's shoes together are we? Why do you keep bringing up these topics if they are fiction? I'm not the one confused here.
I am trying to understand Christians, they say some pretty bewildering stuff.
I am not of the position that they are all crazy, I am trying to respect them (believe it or not). I am just stunned how a person can believe this stuff given what is written in their scriptures. It makes no sense to me.
For example, You (AD) seem like an intelligent and reasonable man, but your beliefs just seem wacky, with no evidence, just faith, and you are happy to do the mental gymnastics required to twist your scripture in such a way that it somehow makes sense to you.
I don't know how this is possible. I don't think you are mentally deranged or that you lack the ability to apply reason, logic and deep thought into something, but somehow you have made a leap of faith towards the Christian faith. I can't understand it, and I am somewhat interested in human psychology.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:39:47 PM
I am trying to understand Christians, they say some pretty bewildering stuff.
Honestly, sometimes I can see you really wanting to understand, but for the most part what I see in "understanding" is just the fun *you get by hurling snide remarks and sarcasm at the things we discuss. I understand your 'anger' at this fictional god...and as I've mentioned to another, it is not without merit, however with the caveat that it is understood THROUGH how you view/perceive/interpret the piece of fiction. I'm not so stupid not to see why you are Atheist. I find many valid 'complaints', if you will, from Atheism. These things are very difficult to understand if there even is a manner in which TO understand it.
Quote from: StevilI am not of the position that they are all crazy, I am trying to respect them (believe it or not). I am just stunned how a person can believe this stuff given what is written in their scriptures. It makes no sense to me.
While I don't doubt this is your intention as you state here, it is not really conveyed as such in your actions (manner of speaking to or at Christians and their beliefs) here that I've seen. I've tried to bend to your liking in speaking of the bible as 'the piece of fiction' so that you'll discuss it as such. But that even doesn't work so well with you and certainly not with others that would rather not speak of it as such.
Quote from: StevilFor example, You (AD) seem like an intelligent and reasonable man, but your beliefs just seem wacky, with no evidence, just faith,
If you really knew anything about the piece of fiction, you'd know that this is par for the course. Most Atheists have a fine way of quoting scripture...errr...from that piece of fiction to prove their point. Most anything can be 'proven' from that piece of fiction. It's all in there. Nothing hidden about the corruption of man...even God's men.
Quote from: Steviland you are happy to do the mental gymnastics required to twist your scripture in such a way that it somehow makes sense to you.
It already makes sense to me. I don't need to do any mental gymnastics. The reason I'm here (partially) is to try and convey the reasoning, be it mental gymnastics or just a differing perspective.
e.g. In this post (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9198.msg149265#msg149265), it seems
superfes is trying to say that even God says he creates darkness and evil. Of course that is what it says, but is that what it means? (He's not answered to this yet so I'm guessing)
Quote from: StevilI don't know how this is possible. I don't think you are mentally deranged or that you lack the ability to apply reason, logic and deep thought into something, but somehow you have made a leap of faith towards the Christian faith. I can't understand it, and I am somewhat interested in human psychology.
Again, you're just not seeing it. It is all about the belief being a leap of faith. It's not supposed to be based on empirical evidence. If it were, it wouldn't require faith. It's those small points that the typical Atheist says he/she doesn't get but misses completely that THAT is it. This fictional God wants only those that want him. There is enough evidence TO believe and there's enough evidence to disbelieve. Proof? Christians exist and Atheist's exist. There is no reason for this God to come and prove his existence to a person not wanting anything from their perception of this God. Is there?
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 25, 2012, 01:56:05 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 24, 2012, 11:54:37 PM
Do you doubt a parent's love because they punish their child?
I would doubt a parent's love if they tortured their child, and I would doubt their sanity if they tortured their child with fire. I would also doubt both the love and the sanity of a parent who killed their child (no matter how "humanely") for disagreeing with them.
Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 25, 2012, 10:43:32 PM
Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.
Do not all succumb to death at some point? Hell is the place of death, not torture.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:36:07 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 09:39:47 PM
I am trying to understand Christians, they say some pretty bewildering stuff.
Honestly, sometimes I can see you really wanting to understand, but for the most part what I see in "understanding" is just the fun *you get by hurling snide remarks and sarcasm at the things we discuss.
I hope that you can see I am presenting my disbelief in this stuff. I am not directing snide or sarcastic remarks towards you.
I am open to the possibility that if the god exists it is not perfect, it is not good, that it might take pleasure out of tormenting people. You aren't open to this idea. You might take my remarks against the classic Christian view of the bible as an attack on you, but it is not an attack on you. I am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.
I offer ideas, and make comments with regards to Christianity because I am trying to understand it. How can an atheist not see the horribleness in the Christian stories, the torture dished out by the Christian god? Why can't a Christian see this horribleness? There doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation. I certainly do not understand.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:36:07 PM
Again, you're just not seeing it. It is all about the belief being a leap of faith. It's not supposed to be based on empirical evidence. If it were, it wouldn't require faith.
Why is faith important? I don't understand this. With the requirement of faith a person has equal reason to leap towards any religion that humans have dreamed up. For the most part they conflict each other and sometimes the followers are compelled to kill each other. Many religious wars have been had and many are still happening, many people are dying, many people are oppressed in the name of such and such a god.
Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available. If you deny one religion with regards to leap of faith, you must deny them all based on this same premise.
The Christian belief that non believers go to hell is a croc. It has no rational to it, it is merely a coercive argument to get people to comply.
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 10:55:18 PM
I hope that you can see I am presenting my disbelief in this stuff. I am not directing snide or sarcastic remarks towards you.
Then to who? I'm the one you're speaking to.
Quote from: StevilI am open to the possibility that if the god exists it is not perfect, it is not good, that it might take pleasure out of tormenting people. You aren't open to this idea.
The question then is; are you also open to the possibility this interpretation of the reading of these things is wrong? Apparently not that open...or so the snide and sarcasm suggests.
Quote from: StevilYou might take my remarks against the classic Christian view of the bible as an attack on you, but it is not an attack on you.
Not really. Again, this kind of reaction is par for the course...has been for the fictional thousands of years.
Quote from: StevilI am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.
I'm sure of it. I have a few Atheist friends. We get along fine. I don't know for sure if they feel I'm some kind of deluded person and/or have pity on me for being so easily deluded, but it seems to me we have a great relationship. There's at least one friend that is an Atheist that I trust more than most of my Christian friends! In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.
Quote from: StevilI offer ideas, and make comments with regards to Christianity because I am trying to understand it. How can an atheist not see the horribleness in the Christian stories, the torture dished out by the Christian god? Why can't a Christian see this horribleness? There doesn't seem to be any reasonable explanation. I certainly do not understand.
Any Christian that denys the horribleness of the deaths of people, children...is more deluded than you may think.
Quote from: StevilWhy is faith important? I don't understand this. With the requirement of faith a person has equal reason to leap towards any religion that humans have dreamed up. For the most part they conflict each other and sometimes the followers are compelled to kill each other. Many religious wars have been had and many are still happening, many people are dying, many people are oppressed in the name of such and such a god.
Faith is what drives us. You may disagree, but your 'faith' drives you too. Atheism is not a faith-based disbelief, but stems from a self-faith that you, yourself, understand everything better and thus you live (and will die) within this faith *you have in yourself. Below you state that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice. This is faith in your own thinking.
Quote from: StevilAtheism is the only rational and consistent choice available. If you deny one religion with regards to leap of faith, you must deny them all based on this same premise.
I agree, Atheism is rational. There is nothing rational about a God of love that cares for *you so much he's willing to wait, if it were possible, for *you to see this faith. At what cost? Well, you might find his love for *you irrational...who claimed love rational?
Quote from: StevilThe Christian belief that non believers go to hell is a croc. It has no rational to it, it is merely a coercive argument to get people to comply.
Is it a croc that people die?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 25, 2012, 10:55:18 PM
I hope that you can see I am presenting my disbelief in this stuff. I am not directing snide or sarcastic remarks towards you.
Then to who? I'm the one you're speaking to.
If you feel that I am being snide to you personally then please comment at the time so that I can either explain or consider my own actions.
Also feel free to complain to the Moderators of this forum. If I am being personally untowards then they will give me warnings or ban me.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
The question then is; are you also open to the possibility this interpretation of the reading of these things is wrong? Apparently not that open...or so the snide and sarcasm suggests.
If I wasn't open then I wouldn't be asking questions.
For example can you please explain to me how a god that sets two she bears onto 42 children for the offense of calling a man "baldy" is not psychotic and overreacting, but is instead perfect love?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: StevilYou might take my remarks against the classic Christian view of the bible as an attack on you, but it is not an attack on you.
Not really. Again, this kind of reaction is par for the course...has been for the fictional thousands of years.
I don't understand your comment. What reaction? yours? mine? ???
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.
I would have taken this remark to be an insult as I am not a Christian, but maybe your friend politely accepted your gesture.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: StevilWhy is faith important? ...
Faith is what drives us. You may disagree, but your 'faith' drives you too. Atheism is not a faith-based disbelief, but stems from a self-faith that you, yourself, understand everything better and thus you live (and will die) within this faith *you have in yourself. Below you state that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice. This is faith in your own thinking.
The thing about Atheism is that you can accept a position of not understanding, not knowing. We don't claim to have all the answers.
If you are able to show me how belief in the Christian god is more rational than belief in the Muslim god then I would like to hear it.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: StevilAtheism is the only rational and consistent choice available. If you deny one religion with regards to leap of faith, you must deny them all based on this same premise.
I agree, Atheism is rational. There is nothing rational about a God of love that cares for *you so much he's willing to wait, if it were possible, for *you to see this faith. At what cost? Well, you might find his love for *you irrational...who claimed love rational?
How does this address what I stated, that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available? Are you somehow telling me that you desire a non rational and non consistent choice?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: StevilThe Christian belief that non believers go to hell is a croc. It has no rational to it, it is merely a coercive argument to get people to comply.
Is it a croc that people die?
You are twisting here. When I talk about death I talk about the animal stop breathing, blood stop flowing, brain stop functioning. Everyone dies. When you talk of death it is some mystical thing. We are debating two different things here, your response does not address my statements.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:52:45 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 25, 2012, 10:43:32 PM
Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.
Do not all succumb to death at some point? Hell is the place of death, not torture.
Okay, how many parents sentence their children to death?
Also, if that's your definition of Hell I don't see how Christians avoid this? Christians die. What's the difference between a Christian death and an Atheist death if there's no hell?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: StevilI am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.
I'm sure of it. I have a few Atheist friends. We get along fine. I don't know for sure if they feel I'm some kind of deluded person and/or have pity on me for being so easily deluded, but it seems to me we have a great relationship. There's at least one friend that is an Atheist that I trust more than most of my Christian friends! In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.
This is an interesting statement. So, do you still believe that this very Christian-like atheist is still going to hell?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:52:45 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 25, 2012, 10:43:32 PM
Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.
Do not all succumb to death at some point? Hell is the place of death, not torture.
Don't start playing with the definitions of the word hell, please. If you mean death, simply call it that. When you call it hell you confuse the subject,since hell has a specific, and different, meaning to most people.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 26, 2012, 02:00:22 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 10:52:45 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 25, 2012, 10:43:32 PM
Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.
Do not all succumb to death at some point? Hell is the place of death, not torture.
Okay, how many parents sentence their children to death?
Also, if that's your definition of Hell I don't see how Christians avoid this? Christians die. What's the difference between a Christian death and an Atheist death if there's no hell?
This is interresting. I'd like to know as well.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 12:51:02 AM
If you feel that I am being snide to you personally then please comment at the time so that I can either explain or consider my own actions.Also feel free to complain to the Moderators of this forum. If I am being personally untowards then they will give me warnings or ban me.
It is well accepted here at HAF. I'm simply telling you how it makes me (or anyone I would guess in the same situation) feel. I'm hardly looking to get any person banned.
Quote from: StevilIf I wasn't open then I wouldn't be asking questions.
For example can you please explain to me how a god that sets two she bears onto 42 children for the offense of calling a man "baldy" is not psychotic and overreacting, but is instead perfect love?
Lots of things in that piece of fiction, I'm unable to explain, however I have an idea that may fit to a degree.
I don't know for sure. What I do believe is that one day, if that is a concern to me, I will be able to ask and be given the answer. For now, the better question is the lesson involved therein. What study have you done on this or are you just picking and choosing something because it goes against what you perceive to be right? What age do you think these "children" were?
Just a quick search, I found these (http://www.gotquestions.org/Elisha-baldhead.html) points (http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/jamieson-fausset-brown/2-kings/2-kings-2.html). You are certainly free to disagree, but that's all I can give you.
Quote from: StevilI don't understand your comment. What reaction? yours? mine? ???
The general reaction to Christianity by those that oppose it.
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.
I would have taken this remark to be an insult as I am not a Christian, but maybe your friend politely accepted your gesture.
I guess you would in your perception, but it was meant as a compliment...on what a Christian should be.
Quote from: StevilThe thing about Atheism is that you can accept a position of not understanding, not knowing. We don't claim to have all the answers.
If you are able to show me how belief in the Christian god is more rational than belief in the Muslim god then I would like to hear it.
Again, I'm not here to convince you. I can't do that. I'm here to give you a different perspective and one more in line to what Christians DO believe vs what *YOU, the Atheist thinks we believe. The above was about the 'faith' you have. It is a faith that you have a better understanding of what is right and wrong. So you live according to your faith...faith in your own self. And from the Christian perspective, you will live and die by that faith. I don't think you have any hope of living forever, well hope maybe, but realistic hope?
Quote from: StevilHow does this address what I stated, that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available? Are you somehow telling me that you desire a non rational and non consistent choice?
If there is a diverse selection of religions, then one is able to rationally choose their preference. Or is "rational" only objective? I gather it would be more like morals...to each his own. So I see the rational in Atheism, however that is based on a self-faith. Its a faith that says, "I know better and count on my own intelligence..." whereas the Christian rational is based on something else knows better where that something else is that fictional biblical God. So our faith is placed where our heart is.
Quote from: StevilYou are twisting here. When I talk about death I talk about the animal stop breathing, blood stop flowing, brain stop functioning. Everyone dies. When you talk of death it is some mystical thing. We are debating two different things here, your response does not address my statements.
No twist whatsoever. There's nothing mystical about death. It's exactly (I believe) as the piece of fiction states, "The dead know nothing." There is no coersion. One cannot be saved simply because he/she fears death...that's impossible. So to think that anyone is saved through that is simply to misunderstand...which is why I'm here. The typical Atheist THINKS they understand the way one is saved - out of fear or by following rules...?? not hardly - but *you don't.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 26, 2012, 02:00:22 AM
Okay, how many parents sentence their children to death?
The fictional Adam and Eve were not children and were not sentenced to death in ignorance. They were fully aware of what they were doing and knew the consequence. It is these that doomed their offspring.
Is not every child born sentenced to death?
"The only two certainties in life are death and taxes." This is a lie then?
Quote from: DeterminedJulietAlso, if that's your definition of Hell I don't see how Christians avoid this? Christians die. What's the difference between a Christian death and an Atheist death if there's no hell?
Good question. While there may be people that never taste death as we know it, from age, disease, tragic, other...some will be living at the time of God's return. The difference in death THIS side of that event is no different. Dust we are and to dust we return. However ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment. Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves. Only one is claimed to be a saving faith. Hell, then, is the place of complete death or anihilation of which there is no return. Not unlike what the typical Atheist believes will become of them anyway. Cease to exist forever.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 06:01:02 PMHowever ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment. Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.
What about those without faith in themselves or Christ? Or those with faith in Muhammed, Ra, etc.? Those without any kind of faith?
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 26, 2012, 05:15:46 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 25, 2012, 11:44:48 PM
Quote from: StevilI am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.
I'm sure of it. I have a few Atheist friends. We get along fine. I don't know for sure if they feel I'm some kind of deluded person and/or have pity on me for being so easily deluded, but it seems to me we have a great relationship. There's at least one friend that is an Atheist that I trust more than most of my Christian friends! In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.
This is an interesting statement. So, do you still believe that this very Christian-like atheist is still going to hell?
According to the piece of fiction, one cannot be saved from "hell" by being good or following the rules. These things are a by-product of our faith in Christ, the fictional Savior. Much like you wouldn't believe a random person walking up to you and saying, "I love you." to really love you. Infatuation, yes. Lust, yes...but real love, the love one finds in a spouse/partner that is there regardless of our flaws...??
Quote from: Davin on January 26, 2012, 06:04:33 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 06:01:02 PMHowever ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment. Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.
What about those without faith in themselves or Christ? Or those with faith in Muhammed, Ra, etc.? Those without any kind of faith?
Are you asking me? A Christian?
If I haven't made it clear in 1000+ posts here at HAF, according to the piece of fiction, only true faith in Christ saves, there is no other that can.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 06:13:40 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 26, 2012, 06:04:33 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 06:01:02 PMHowever ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment. Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.
What about those without faith in themselves or Christ? Or those with faith in Muhammed, Ra, etc.? Those without any kind of faith?
Are you asking me? A Christian?
If I haven't made it clear in 1000+ posts here at HAF, according to the piece of fiction, only true faith in Christ saves, there is no other that can.
Yes I was asking you, thank you for the answer.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 05:44:27 PM
The above was about the 'faith' you have. It is a faith that you have a better understanding of what is right and wrong. So you live according to your faith...faith in your own self.
As an amoral atheist I claim that morals are nonsensical, I claim that right and wrong is nonsensical. I do not have faith whatsoever with regards to what is right and what is wrong. I don't judge people by my standard of personal values.
This does not mean that I think society should operate in anarchy. We do need rules, rules that are aimed towards a functional, stable and safe society, certainly not someone's perception of a moral one.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 05:44:27 PM
And from the Christian perspective, you will live and die by that faith.
This is the annoying bit. Christians are judging me and applying their faith to me. Telling me what will happen to me...
I am not part of this mystical Christian world. It does not apply to me. I don't live by that faith, I am not working towards the Christian goal posts. I don't believe in the Christian god, I don't believe in Jesus or Satan or Adam or Eve or Mary or Moses, etc. I do not believe in Good, I do not believe in Evil. I do not believe in sin. I am without sin and find it ridiculous that Christians dare suggest to me that I am a sinner. Don't apply your faith to me, please.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 05:44:27 PM
No twist whatsoever. There's nothing mystical about death. It's exactly (I believe) as the piece of fiction states, "The dead know nothing." There is no coersion. One cannot be saved simply because he/she fears death...that's impossible. So to think that anyone is saved through that is simply to misunderstand...which is why I'm here. The typical Atheist THINKS they understand the way one is saved - out of fear or by following rules...?? not hardly - but *you don't.
The Christian faith twists it as well. They make out that humans are at fault and that the god is saving humans. From what I see of this belief it is the god that is punishing people. The all powerful god is doing this to the people, not the other way around.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 06:44:30 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 05:44:27 PM
The above was about the 'faith' you have. It is a faith that you have a better understanding of what is right and wrong. So you live according to your faith...faith in your own self.
As an amoral atheist I claim that morals are nonsensical, I claim that right and wrong is nonsensical. I do not have faith whatsoever with regards to what is right and what is wrong. I don't judge people by my standard of personal values.
This does not mean that I think society should operate in anarchy. We do need rules, rules that are aimed towards a functional, stable and safe society, certainly not someone's perception of a moral one.
Uh...what? You have no "faith" in what is right or wrong? Do you not use your own brain to figure what is right or wrong for yourself? You don't judge people by your standard of personal values?....yet we find snark and snide comments at other people's beliefs? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying...it's quite possible.
Quote from: Stevil
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 05:44:27 PM
And from the Christian perspective, you will live and die by that faith.
This is the annoying bit. Christians are judging me and applying their faith to me. Telling me what will happen to me...
I am not part of this mystical Christian world. It does not apply to me. I don't live by that faith, I am not working towards the Christian goal posts. I don't believe in the Christian god, I don't believe in Jesus or Satan or Adam or Eve or Mary or Moses, etc. I do not believe in Good, I do not believe in Evil. I do not believe in sin. I am without sin and find it ridiculous that Christians dare suggest to me that I am a sinner. Don't apply your faith to me, please.
THIS I don't get...seriously. Who is applying their faith to you??? Do you deny that you will some day die? Who claimed you're working towards some Christian goal posts? If you believe to be without sin...I don't care one bit. But if you're asking
IN A RELIGIOUS SECTION OF A FORUM, ideas from a Christian...why are you surprised and better yet, why are you annoyed???
Quote from: StevilThe Christian faith twists it as well. They make out that humans are at fault and that the god is saving humans. From what I see of this belief it is the god that is punishing people. The all powerful god is doing this to the people, not the other way around.
You continue to show you really don't understand what you are talking about in regard to the beliefs of Christians. Our sinfulness is not "our own fault". Yes, the fictional Adam and Eve doomed us, humanity, but they are are not the originator or the ones that empowered sin. There is an originator to sin and that is the one that first sinned in the form of pride.
Sin, like darkness, existed...but was not yet empowered.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 08:11:47 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 06:44:30 PM
As an amoral atheist I claim that morals are nonsensical, I claim that right and wrong is nonsensical. I do not have faith whatsoever with regards to what is right and what is wrong. I don't judge people by my standard of personal values.
This does not mean that I think society should operate in anarchy. We do need rules, rules that are aimed towards a functional, stable and safe society, certainly not someone's perception of a moral one.
Uh...what? You have no "faith" in what is right or wrong? Do you not use your own brain to figure what is right or wrong for yourself? You don't judge people by your standard of personal values?....yet we find snark and snide comments at other people's beliefs? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying...it's quite possible.
You most likely are misunderstanding. If you are not up with the concept, then it is something new to think about.
I don't term something as being right or wrong. Right and wrong are meaningless terms, these only serve to hide one's personal agenda. Using reason towards a goal a person can explain why an action is beneficial, detrimental or neutral.
My goal is that of a functional, stable and safe society. Why? Because I want to survive and I want my loved ones to survive as well.
If there was a god and it chooses to murder people via bears for simple verbal transgressions then I deem these activities as a personal threat to my survival and the survival of my loved ones. A society that I want to live within, (a functional, stable and safe society), must protect me and hence oppose this murderous god. The god, does what it does, I do not call it a sinner, but society must oppose it in whatever means is possible, otherwise society is not safe, I am not safe.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 08:11:47 PM
THIS I don't get...seriously. Who is applying their faith to you??? Do you deny that you will some day die? Who claimed you're working towards some Christian goal posts? If you believe to be without sin...I don't care one bit. But if you're asking IN A RELIGIOUS SECTION OF A FORUM, ideas from a Christian...why are you surprised and better yet, why are you annoyed???
Christians are applying their faith onto society, they create laws to stop society members doing things they deem immoral e.g. gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion etc. In some places they are trying to outlaw contraceptives, sex education etc. In the Bible belt atheists are often ostracised. Christianity being an exclusive group whom want to apply their faith onto all of society is a threat to me and my loved ones, no doubt.
When you AD tell me, that I will be judged by your god or say anything that ties me into your faith, I feel you are crossing boundaries. I would much more appreciate if you discussed stuff from a belief perspective and don't add me into this myth. It is not my myth, it doesn't apply to me. I don't think that I have ever told you that your god doesn't exist and that you won't have eternal happiness in heaven. I don't apply my non belief to you.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 08:11:47 PM
You continue to show you really don't understand what you are talking about in regard to the beliefs of Christians.
And you don't understand the atheist perspective, you seem incapable of looking at your belief with critical non belief eyes.
I only speak from the "I". I can only tell you about my perception of Christianity. My perception is correct in that it is my perception. I never claim to understand Christianity and to tell you what Christianity is all about. I do have an interest in understanding it because there are a lot of people in my society that are Christians and also I see it as a threat. So I explore, I ask questions, and I express my perception, this is the way I approach trying to understand something. If my perception is wrong I expect someone to correct me, or try to show me a different way to look at something. If they don't know what my perception is, how can they correct me, or explain something different to me?
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 08:52:39 PM
You most likely are misunderstanding. If you are not up with the concept, then it is something new to think about.
I don't term something as being right or wrong. Right and wrong are meaningless terms, these only serve to hide one's personal agenda. Using reason towards a goal a person can explain why an action is beneficial, detrimental or neutral.
My goal is that of a functional, stable and safe society. Why? Because I want to survive and I want my loved ones to survive as well.
So instead of telling your child they are doing something wrong, you instead say, "That action was not beneficial but detrimental and certainly not neutral to our goals." Right and wrong are meaningless? What about legal and illegal? Left and Right? Straight or curved? These are all terms that certainly have meaning...the meaning we as a society put on them. Sure one society's "right" may be "wrong" in another...that's not to say the terms are meaningless, it means their meaning derives from a alternate source. Be that as it may, I'm not sure this has anything to do with the current discussion. I respect that you feel this way and that your goal(s) is a functional, stable and safe society.
Quote from: StevilIf there was a god and it chooses to murder people via bears for simple verbal transgressions then I deem these activities as a personal threat to my survival and the survival of my loved ones. A society that I want to live within, (a functional, stable and safe society), must protect me and hence oppose this murderous god. The god, does what it does, I do not call it a sinner, but society must oppose it in whatever means is possible, otherwise society is not safe, I am not safe.
The 'you', in this sense, is safe unless you show contempt for this God that claims to sustain life. Or has this 'you' found the fountain of youth?
Quote from: StevilChristians are applying their faith onto society, they create laws to stop society members doing things they deem immoral e.g. gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion etc. In some places they are trying to outlaw contraceptives, sex education etc. In the Bible belt atheists are often ostracised. Christianity being an exclusive group whom want to apply their faith onto all of society is a threat to me and my loved ones, no doubt.
When you AD tell me, that I will be judged by your god or say anything that ties me into your faith, I feel you are crossing boundaries. I would much more appreciate if you discussed stuff from a belief perspective and don't add me into this myth. It is not my myth, it doesn't apply to me. I don't think that I have ever told you that your god doesn't exist and that you won't have eternal happiness in heaven. I don't apply my non belief to you.
It may be true of Christians at large, but I've not said you specifically (specifically respecting this point that you have brought up before). What I did say is that YOU will die...and still clinging to your OWN faith...that is a faith that YOU know better. I have tried to make the distiction of saying, "According to the piece of fiction" (we are in the Religious section of this forum, correct?), ALL will be raised from death to face judgment. Are you apart of the piece of fiction? I'm really trying to discuss under your terms...it's getting more and more difficult as you keep accusing me of including you. If it slips, I apologize, but ever since the thread where you wanted me to call the bible, the piece of fiction, I've endeavored to do just that.
Quote from: StevilAnd you don't understand the atheist perspective, you seem incapable of looking at your belief with critical non belief eyes.
I only speak from the "I". I can only tell you about my perception of Christianity. My perception is correct in that it is my perception. I never claim to understand Christianity and to tell you what Christianity is all about. I do have an interest in understanding it because there are a lot of people in my society that are Christians and also I see it as a threat. So I explore, I ask questions, and I express my perception, this is the way I approach trying to understand something. If my perception is wrong I expect someone to correct me, or try to show me a different way to look at something. If they don't know what my perception is, how can they correct me, or explain something different to me?
And I'm telling you that your perception is one that is taken from surface value. I dont' believe you REALLY do have an interest, as you say, in understanding it because it is evident in the manner in which you spout off all the "wrong, disguting, vile, slavery, murder, rape..." things in the piece of fiction without one ounce of knowledge of a possible interpretation. Not one. You just say, "God sent bears in to kill 42 children...how is that love?" You conveniently avoid searching the original text in Hebrew (readily available online) different translations, and differning views of interpretation. You miss that they were not "children" chanting from a merry-go-round, but were youths...at least teenagers...more along the lines of a gang...if you will. A brood of troublemakers. What the term meant in those days...who they had been taunting and who he was in this fictional God's eyes. The lesson to the masses this sent... But that escapes you.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
The 'you', in this sense, is safe unless you show contempt for this God that claims to sustain life. Or has this 'you' found the fountain of youth?
I have challenged it many times. I have called it "evil", murderous, unloving... (you name it, I've probably called it that). And yet, I still live.
Not sure what you mean by the fountain of youth comment.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
that is a faith that YOU know better.
I am trying hard not to get frustrated here. I have stated I have no faith, no belief in wrong and right. I have stated that there are many unknowns, I don't claim to know everything. For what is it that you are accusing me of stating that I know better?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
I dont' believe you REALLY do have an interest, as you say, in understanding it because it is evident in the manner in which you spout off all the "wrong, disguting, vile, slavery, murder, rape..." things in the piece of fiction without one ounce of knowledge of a possible interpretation. Not one. You just say, "God sent bears in to kill 42 children...how is that love?" You conveniently avoid searching the original text in Hebrew (readily available online) different translations, and differning views of interpretation. You miss that they were not "children" chanting from a merry-go-round, but were youths...at least teenagers...more along the lines of a gang...if you will. A brood of troublemakers. What the term meant in those days...who they had been taunting and who he was in this fictional God's eyes. The lesson to the masses this sent... But that escapes you.
To me it is beside the point if they were children or in their Twenties. To me it is beside the point who it was that they were calling names. The crime is the same, the Christian god is behaving dangerously towards humans, almost at random. These excuses doesn't make the situation look any less murderous.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
I apologize, but ever since the thread where you wanted me to call the bible, the piece of fiction, I've endeavored to do just that.
This is misleading. You were calling it a fairy tale, I stated that it would be better for you to simply call it fiction if you must try and put words into our mouths. But really it would look much better if you speak from the "I". When a Christian calls the bible fictional or a fairy tale then something smells very fishy. I don't know how the conversation can go well from there onwards.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
I dont' believe you REALLY do have an interest, as you say, in understanding it because it is evident in the manner in which you spout off all the "wrong, disguting, vile, slavery, murder, rape..." things in the piece of fiction without one ounce of knowledge of a possible interpretation. Not one. You just say, "God sent bears in to kill 42 children...how is that love?" You conveniently avoid searching the original text in Hebrew (readily available online) different translations, and differning views of interpretation. You miss that they were not "children" chanting from a merry-go-round, but were youths...at least teenagers...more along the lines of a gang...if you will. A brood of troublemakers. What the term meant in those days...who they had been taunting and who he was in this fictional God's eyes. The lesson to the masses this sent... But that escapes you.
It still does beg the question "Do you think mauling by a bear is just punishment for verbal abuse?" I sure as hell don't, and I have taken a lot of verbal abuse.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 10:22:49 PM
I have challenged it many times. I have called it "evil", murderous, unloving... (you name it, I've probably called it that). And yet, I still live.
In context, some might call that mercy...or allowing free will...even free speech. But once again, not only do you miss the point of the "story", you miss (one of the) whole point of the OT, per se. God's people were being "raised" and shown right from wrong. They were being taught the price of sin (blood from innocent life, and death) as a lesson. They were children, almost literally, in this sense that they were mere children learning. This gang of young teens, even 20 somethings (as you mentioned) were poking fun at God's man. Have you read the previous chapter(s) to know who they were teasing? At least get the whole story. Also, have you ever heard a person say,
"Say anything you will to me or hurt me, but touch my family and I will not stop..." This Elisha, was God's man on earth at this point. This gang had no respect for this. They were dealt with quickly and efficiently with righteous judgment. So the lesson is, at the expense of a gang of hoodlums, death is the consequence of those that mock this God.
You say you've done this and yet you live? But you don't deny you haven't found the Fountain of Youth. Your death then, if it relates at all to this piece of fiction, when it comes, is well deserved. Don't take offense again, because you're asking and saying you've mocked this fictional God.
Quote from: StevilNot sure what you mean by the fountain of youth comment.
The fact that you (surely) acknowledge you will not live forever, is a testament that you will suffer the same consequence, but by a different, possibly a more merciful means...if your life relates to this piece of fiction.
Quote from: StevilI am trying hard not to get frustrated here. I have stated I have no faith, no belief in wrong and right. I have stated that there are many unknowns, I don't claim to know everything. For what is it that you are accusing me of stating that I know better?
This is on one hand funny and on another sad. Is it really that you cannot see you have "faith" in your own knowledge and therefore base your beliefs or disbeliefs on this knowledge? Do you not claim that Christians are deluded for our beliefs in this piece of fiction? Then is it not logical that in this sense you claim to know "better" than those of this delusion? If I'm wrong (which is another up in the air concept for you apparently) then forgive me for having such twisted logic.
Quote from: StevilTo me it is beside the point if they were children or in their Twenties. To me it is beside the point who it was that they were calling names. The crime is the same, the Christian god is behaving dangerously towards humans, almost at random. These excuses doesn't make the situation look any less murderous.
I know, the details and context bothers you.
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 10:27:51 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
I apologize, but ever since the thread where you wanted me to call the bible, the piece of fiction, I've endeavored to do just that.
This is misleading. You were calling it a fairy tale, I stated that it would be better for you to simply call it fiction if you must try and put words into our mouths. But really it would look much better if you speak from the "I". When a Christian calls the bible fictional or a fairy tale then something smells very fishy. I don't know how the conversation can go well from there onwards.
So is what you are telling me here is that you wouldn't mind if I start using the term 'Bible' when referencing it? You won't be offended when in discussion about it? Basically I can stop qualifying it with
'that piece of fiction' (which it seemed made you feel better) and simply refer to it as 'the bible'?
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 10:22:49 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 26, 2012, 09:49:06 PM
I dont' believe you REALLY do have an interest, as you say, in understanding it because it is evident in the manner in which you spout off all the "wrong, disguting, vile, slavery, murder, rape..." things in the piece of fiction without one ounce of knowledge of a possible interpretation. Not one. You just say, "God sent bears in to kill 42 children...how is that love?" You conveniently avoid searching the original text in Hebrew (readily available online) different translations, and differning views of interpretation. You miss that they were not "children" chanting from a merry-go-round, but were youths...at least teenagers...more along the lines of a gang...if you will. A brood of troublemakers. What the term meant in those days...who they had been taunting and who he was in this fictional God's eyes. The lesson to the masses this sent... But that escapes you.
To me it is beside the point if they were children or in their Twenties. To me it is beside the point who it was that they were calling names. The crime is the same, the Christian god is behaving dangerously towards humans, almost at random. These excuses doesn't make the situation look any less murderous.
They were children, the people saying the original Hebrew didn't say that they were little boys is bullshit. This video covers it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZQ-FrsO0GY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZQ-FrsO0GY)
Many people use the "that's not what it says in the original Hebrew" bullshit too much because they know that most of the people they're talking to don't know Hebrew. It's dishonest at worst and an appeal to authority at best.
Quote from: Davin on January 27, 2012, 04:28:22 PM
Many people use the "that's not what it says in the original Hebrew" bullshit too much because they know that most of the people they're talking to don't know Hebrew. It's dishonest at worst and an appeal to authority at best.
Yes...looking at it's origin is BS. Thank you Davin.
Moving on.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:31:14 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 27, 2012, 04:28:22 PM
Many people use the "that's not what it says in the original Hebrew" bullshit too much because they know that most of the people they're talking to don't know Hebrew. It's dishonest at worst and an appeal to authority at best.
Yes...looking at it's origin is BS. Thank you Davin.
Moving on.
Davin was pointing out that the 'read it in the original Hebrew' defence is really no defence at all, and you can't do it either so why say it? It's a get out for you to close down a debate. Effectively cheating your way out of having to answer a question, another example of what you did on the irreducible complexity thread and the structure of the eye. If you can't answer a question you obfuscate and 'bait and switch' a very disingenuous behaviour; but one that allows you to hold onto your faith.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:31:14 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 27, 2012, 04:28:22 PM
Many people use the "that's not what it says in the original Hebrew" bullshit too much because they know that most of the people they're talking to don't know Hebrew. It's dishonest at worst and an appeal to authority at best.
Yes...looking at it's origin is BS. Thank you Davin.
Moving on.
Wow, never have I said such a thing. Do you really have no other defense than to misrepresent what I said? You should move on when you can no longer have an honest discussion.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 26, 2012, 10:22:49 PM
I have challenged it many times. I have called it "evil", murderous, unloving... (you name it, I've probably called it that). And yet, I still live.
Also, have you ever heard a person say, "Say anything you will to me or hurt me, but touch my family and I will not stop..." This Elisha, was God's man on earth at this point. This gang had no respect for this.
Have you ever heard the saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me"?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
They were dealt with quickly and efficiently with righteous judgment.
Your death then, if it relates at all to this piece of fiction, when it comes, is well deserved.
And now it seems AD is qualified as God's judge on the people of the earth.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: StevilNot sure what you mean by the fountain of youth comment.
The fact that you (surely) acknowledge you will not live forever, is a testament that you will suffer the same consequence, but by a different, possibly a more merciful means...if your life relates to this piece of fiction.
OK, lets play this annoying game of "if your life relates to my belief"
If your life relates to the qu'ran then you shall surely be tortured for all eternity given your false belief in Jesus being god and not adhering to the true prophet Muhammad.
If your life relates to the reality where no god exists then you too have not found the fountain of youth, imagining up a god friend and imagining an acceptance of a god/man half breed called Jesus has been a waste of time, when really you ought to have gone to school, got qualified as a mad scientist and created the elixir of life.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
This is on one hand funny and on another sad. Is it really that you cannot see you have "faith" in your own knowledge and therefore base your beliefs or disbeliefs on this knowledge? Do you not claim that Christians are deluded for our beliefs in this piece of fiction? Then is it not logical that in this sense you claim to know "better" than those of this delusion? If I'm wrong (which is another up in the air concept for you apparently) then forgive me for having such twisted logic.
I do not claim that Christians are deluded. I claim that there is no evidence to substantiate the Christian belief, I claim that the leap of faith required to believe the Christian faith is exactly the same leap of faith required to believe the Muslim faith, the Jewish faith, the Hindu faith, the Maori faith, etc.
I claim that a position of accepting that we have no knowledge and hence not accepting any faith until reasonable evidence is presented, this position is the only rational and consistent position. I call it consistent and any religion position as inconsistent because your rational for accepting Christian faith applies equally to pretty much all other faiths, if you accept one and deny the others then you are inconsistent. But you claim to know better, which, if I were a snarky and sarcastic person, I would state is funny and sad.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:14:37 PM
Quote from: StevilTo me it is beside the point if they were children or in their Twenties. To me it is beside the point who it was that they were calling names. The crime is the same, the Christian god is behaving dangerously towards humans, almost at random. These excuses doesn't make the situation look any less murderous.
I know, the details and context bothers you.
...and yet strangely the details and context does not bother you. You have clearly stated that it is justified to kill adults for calling names at a prophet, that this is a great example to show the people of the world god's righteous judgment
Can you not imagine the possibility of meeting your god (after death), you are at the pearly gates and he is standing in the way.
You explain that you are a Good Christian and accept Jesus' death as payment for your sins.
He states that when you were in your twenties you said "god damn it!" in your sleep and you never confessed this, you never prayed for forgiveness.
You say, please forgive me all mighty god, I am scum, I know not what I do.
He says, it is too late AD, you need to beg forgiveness during life.
He then burns you to death, righteously, of course.
Quote from: Stevil on January 27, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
I do not claim that Christians are deluded. I claim that there is no evidence to substantiate the Christian belief, I claim that the leap of faith required to believe the Christian faith is exactly the same leap of faith required to believe the Muslim faith, the Jewish faith, the Hindu faith, the Maori faith, etc.
Some people can look at a chasm and feel uncomfortable about trying to jump over it. Others can look at the same chasm and feel confident the leap can be made. If they do leap, and it works for them, then their judgment was reasonable.
Quote from: Stevil on January 27, 2012, 07:18:23 PM
I claim that a position of accepting that we have no knowledge and hence not accepting any faith until reasonable evidence is presented, this position is the only rational and consistent position. I call it consistent and any religion position as inconsistent because your rational for accepting Christian faith applies equally to pretty much all other faiths, if you accept one and deny the others then you are inconsistent.
Knowledge and faith are not the same thing. Knowledge can take us to the edge of the chasm, but then it is up to the individual whether or not to take the leap of faith. He doesn't
know he can make it, but
believes that he can. To me, that's an important distinction in what is being claimed by faith.
For me, I've been to the edge of my knowledge and looked at the chasm separating me from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam. The chasm leading to Christianity is the only one I feel that I can span. The others appear too far from my knowledge base to making jumping reasonable. So, I've made my leap, and feel that I have landed safely on the only faith base that my reason can support.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 27, 2012, 04:18:38 PM
So is what you are telling me here is that you wouldn't mind if I start using the term 'Bible' when referencing it? You won't be offended when in discussion about it? Basically I can stop qualifying it with 'that piece of fiction' (which it seemed made you feel better) and simply refer to it as 'the bible'?
Why not? Other Xtians on the board do.