God is Love

[Stevil]

I hope that you can see I am presenting my disbelief in this stuff. I am not directing snide or sarcastic remarks towards you.

Then to who?  I'm the one you're speaking to.

If you feel that I am being snide to you personally then please comment at the time so that I can either explain or consider my own actions.
Also feel free to complain to the Moderators of this forum. If I am being personally untowards then they will give me warnings or ban me.

The question then is; are you also open to the possibility this interpretation of the reading of these things is wrong?  Apparently not that open...or so the snide and sarcasm suggests.

If I wasn't open then I wouldn't be asking questions.
For example can you please explain to me how a god that sets two she bears onto 42 children for the offense of calling a man "baldy" is not psychotic and overreacting, but is instead perfect love?

You might take my remarks against the classic Christian view of the bible as an attack on you, but it is not an attack on you.

Not really.  Again, this kind of reaction is par for the course...has been for the fictional thousands of years. 

I don't understand your comment. What reaction? yours? mine? ???

In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.

I would have taken this remark to be an insult as I am not a Christian, but maybe your friend politely accepted your gesture.

Why is faith important? ...

Faith is what drives us.  You may disagree, but your 'faith' drives you too.  Atheism is not a faith-based disbelief, but stems from a self-faith that you, yourself, understand everything better and thus you live (and will die) within this faith *you have in yourself.  Below you state that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice.  This is faith in your own thinking.

The thing about Atheism is that you can accept a position of not understanding, not knowing. We don't claim to have all the answers.
If you are able to show me how belief in the Christian god is more rational than belief in the Muslim god then I would like to hear it.

Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available. If you deny one religion with regards to leap of faith, you must deny them all based on this same premise.

I agree, Atheism is rational.  There is nothing rational about a God of love that cares for *you so much he's willing to wait, if it were possible, for *you to see this faith.  At what cost?  Well, you might find his love for *you irrational...who claimed love rational?

How does this address what I stated, that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available? Are you somehow telling me that you desire a non rational and non consistent choice?

The Christian belief that non believers go to hell is a croc. It has no rational to it, it is merely a coercive argument to get people to comply.

Is it a croc that people die?

You are twisting here. When I talk about death I talk about the animal stop breathing, blood stop flowing, brain stop functioning. Everyone dies. When you talk of death it is some mystical thing. We are debating two different things here, your response does not address my statements.

[DeterminedJuliet]

Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.

Do not all succumb to death at some point?  Hell is the place of death, not torture.

Okay, how many parents sentence their children to death?

Also, if that's your definition of Hell I don't see how Christians avoid this? Christians die. What's the difference between a Christian death and an Atheist death if there's no hell?

[MadBomr101]

I am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.

I'm sure of it.  I have a few Atheist friends.  We get along fine.  I don't know for sure if they feel I'm some kind of deluded person and/or have pity on me for being so easily deluded, but it seems to me we have a great relationship.  There's at least one friend that is an Atheist that I trust more than most of my Christian friends!  In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.

This is an interesting statement.  So, do you still believe that this very Christian-like atheist is still going to hell?

[Guardian85]

Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.

Do not all succumb to death at some point?  Hell is the place of death, not torture.

Don't start playing with the definitions of the word hell, please. If you mean death, simply call it that. When you call it hell you confuse the subject,since hell has a specific, and different, meaning to most people.

Really, though. Discipline is one thing, eternal hell-fire if they disobey is another.

Do not all succumb to death at some point?  Hell is the place of death, not torture.

Okay, how many parents sentence their children to death?

Also, if that's your definition of Hell I don't see how Christians avoid this? Christians die. What's the difference between a Christian death and an Atheist death if there's no hell?

This is interresting. I'd like to know as well.

[AnimatedDirt]

If you feel that I am being snide to you personally then please comment at the time so that I can either explain or consider my own actions.Also feel free to complain to the Moderators of this forum. If I am being personally untowards then they will give me warnings or ban me.

It is well accepted here at HAF.  I'm simply telling you how it makes me (or anyone I would guess in the same situation) feel.  I'm hardly looking to get any person banned. 

If I wasn't open then I wouldn't be asking questions.
For example can you please explain to me how a god that sets two she bears onto 42 children for the offense of calling a man "baldy" is not psychotic and overreacting, but is instead perfect love?

Lots of things in that piece of fiction, I'm unable to explain, however I have an idea that may fit to a degree.

I don't know for sure.  What I do believe is that one day, if that is a concern to me, I will be able to ask and be given the answer.  For now, the better question is the lesson involved therein.  What study have you done on this or are you just picking and choosing something because it goes against what you perceive to be right?  What age do you think these "children" were?
Just a quick search, I found these points.  You are certainly free to disagree, but that's all I can give you.

I don't understand your comment. What reaction? yours? mine? ???

The general reaction to Christianity by those that oppose it.

In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.

I would have taken this remark to be an insult as I am not a Christian, but maybe your friend politely accepted your gesture.

I guess you would in your perception, but it was meant as a compliment...on what a Christian should be.

The thing about Atheism is that you can accept a position of not understanding, not knowing. We don't claim to have all the answers.
If you are able to show me how belief in the Christian god is more rational than belief in the Muslim god then I would like to hear it.

Again, I'm not here to convince you.  I can't do that.  I'm here to give you a different perspective and one more in line to what Christians DO believe vs what *YOU, the Atheist thinks we believe.  The above was about the 'faith' you have.  It is a faith that you have a better understanding of what is right and wrong.  So you live according to your faith...faith in your own self.  And from the Christian perspective, you will live and die by that faith.  I don't think you have any hope of living forever, well hope maybe, but realistic hope?

How does this address what I stated, that Atheism is the only rational and consistent choice available? Are you somehow telling me that you desire a non rational and non consistent choice?

If there is a diverse selection of religions, then one is able to rationally choose their preference.  Or is "rational" only objective?  I gather it would be more like morals...to each his own.  So I see the rational in Atheism, however that is based on a self-faith.  Its a faith that says, "I know better and count on my own intelligence..." whereas the Christian rational is based on something else knows better where that something else is that fictional biblical God.  So our faith is placed where our heart is. 

You are twisting here. When I talk about death I talk about the animal stop breathing, blood stop flowing, brain stop functioning. Everyone dies. When you talk of death it is some mystical thing. We are debating two different things here, your response does not address my statements.

No twist whatsoever.  There's nothing mystical about death.  It's exactly (I believe) as the piece of fiction states, "The dead know nothing."  There is no coersion.  One cannot be saved simply because he/she fears death...that's impossible.  So to think that anyone is saved through that is simply to misunderstand...which is why I'm here.  The typical Atheist THINKS they understand the way one is saved - out of fear or by following rules...?? not hardly  - but *you don't.

[AnimatedDirt]

Okay, how many parents sentence their children to death?

The fictional Adam and Eve were not children and were not sentenced to death in ignorance.  They were fully aware of what they were doing and knew the consequence.  It is these that doomed their offspring.

Is not every child born sentenced to death?
"The only two certainties in life are death and taxes."  This is a lie then?

Also, if that's your definition of Hell I don't see how Christians avoid this? Christians die. What's the difference between a Christian death and an Atheist death if there's no hell?

Good question.  While there may be people that never taste death as we know it, from age, disease, tragic, other...some will be living at the time of God's return.  The difference in death THIS side of that event is no different.  Dust we are and to dust we return.  However ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment.  Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.  Only one is claimed to be a saving faith.  Hell, then, is the place of complete death or anihilation of which there is no return.  Not unlike what the typical Atheist believes will become of them anyway.  Cease to exist forever.

[Davin]

However ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment.  Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.

What about those without faith in themselves or Christ? Or those with faith in Muhammed, Ra, etc.? Those without any kind of faith?

[AnimatedDirt]

I am sure outside of this forum, not discussing religion, we could get on very well and respect each other very much. I don't know if this is actually what would happen , but the potential is there.

I'm sure of it.  I have a few Atheist friends.  We get along fine.  I don't know for sure if they feel I'm some kind of deluded person and/or have pity on me for being so easily deluded, but it seems to me we have a great relationship.  There's at least one friend that is an Atheist that I trust more than most of my Christian friends!  In fact, I've told him he's a better Christian than I am.

This is an interesting statement.  So, do you still believe that this very Christian-like atheist is still going to hell?

According to the piece of fiction, one cannot be saved from "hell" by being good or following the rules.  These things are a by-product of our faith in Christ, the fictional Savior.  Much like you wouldn't believe a random person walking up to you and saying, "I love you." to really love you.  Infatuation, yes.  Lust, yes...but real love, the love one finds in a spouse/partner that is there regardless of our flaws...??

[AnimatedDirt]

However ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment.  Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.

What about those without faith in themselves or Christ? Or those with faith in Muhammed, Ra, etc.? Those without any kind of faith?

Are you asking me?  A Christian?

If I haven't made it clear in 1000+ posts here at HAF, according to the piece of fiction, only true faith in Christ saves, there is no other that can.

[Davin]

However ALL will be raised again to life and ALL will face judgment.  Some will be judged according to their faith in Christ and others by their faith in themselves.

What about those without faith in themselves or Christ? Or those with faith in Muhammed, Ra, etc.? Those without any kind of faith?

Are you asking me?  A Christian?

If I haven't made it clear in 1000+ posts here at HAF, according to the piece of fiction, only true faith in Christ saves, there is no other that can.

Yes I was asking you, thank you for the answer.

[Stevil]

The above was about the 'faith' you have.  It is a faith that you have a better understanding of what is right and wrong.  So you live according to your faith...faith in your own self. 

As an amoral atheist I claim that morals are nonsensical, I claim that right and wrong is nonsensical. I do not have faith whatsoever with regards to what is right and what is wrong. I don't judge people by my standard of personal values.
This does not mean that I think society should operate in anarchy. We do need rules, rules that are aimed towards a functional, stable and safe society, certainly not someone's perception of a moral one.

And from the Christian perspective, you will live and die by that faith.

This is the annoying bit. Christians are judging me and applying their faith to me. Telling me what will happen to me...
I am not part of this mystical Christian world. It does not apply to me. I don't live by that faith, I am not working towards the Christian goal posts. I don't believe in the Christian god, I don't believe in Jesus or Satan or Adam or Eve or Mary or Moses, etc. I do not believe in Good, I do not believe in Evil. I do not believe in sin. I am without sin and find it ridiculous that Christians dare suggest to me that I am a sinner. Don't apply your faith to me, please.

No twist whatsoever.  There's nothing mystical about death.  It's exactly (I believe) as the piece of fiction states, "The dead know nothing."  There is no coersion.  One cannot be saved simply because he/she fears death...that's impossible.  So to think that anyone is saved through that is simply to misunderstand...which is why I'm here.  The typical Atheist THINKS they understand the way one is saved - out of fear or by following rules...?? not hardly  - but *you don't.

The Christian faith twists it as well. They make out that humans are at fault and that the god is saving humans. From what I see of this belief it is the god that is punishing people. The all powerful god is doing this to the people, not the other way around.

[AnimatedDirt]

The above was about the 'faith' you have.  It is a faith that you have a better understanding of what is right and wrong.  So you live according to your faith...faith in your own self.  

As an amoral atheist I claim that morals are nonsensical, I claim that right and wrong is nonsensical. I do not have faith whatsoever with regards to what is right and what is wrong. I don't judge people by my standard of personal values.
This does not mean that I think society should operate in anarchy. We do need rules, rules that are aimed towards a functional, stable and safe society, certainly not someone's perception of a moral one.

Uh...what?  You have no "faith" in what is right or wrong?  Do you not use your own brain to figure what is right or wrong for yourself? You don't judge people by your standard of personal values?....yet we find snark and snide comments at other people's beliefs?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying...it's quite possible.

And from the Christian perspective, you will live and die by that faith.

This is the annoying bit. Christians are judging me and applying their faith to me. Telling me what will happen to me...
I am not part of this mystical Christian world. It does not apply to me. I don't live by that faith, I am not working towards the Christian goal posts. I don't believe in the Christian god, I don't believe in Jesus or Satan or Adam or Eve or Mary or Moses, etc. I do not believe in Good, I do not believe in Evil. I do not believe in sin. I am without sin and find it ridiculous that Christians dare suggest to me that I am a sinner. Don't apply your faith to me, please.

THIS I don't get...seriously.  Who is applying their faith to you???  Do you deny that you will some day die?  Who claimed you're working towards some Christian goal posts?  If you believe to be without sin...I don't care one bit.  But if you're asking IN A RELIGIOUS SECTION OF A FORUM, ideas from a Christian...why are you surprised and better yet, why are you annoyed???

The Christian faith twists it as well. They make out that humans are at fault and that the god is saving humans. From what I see of this belief it is the god that is punishing people. The all powerful god is doing this to the people, not the other way around.

You continue to show you really don't understand what you are talking about in regard to the beliefs of Christians.  Our sinfulness is not "our own fault".  Yes, the fictional Adam and Eve doomed us, humanity, but they are are not the originator or the ones that empowered sin.  There is an originator to sin and that is the one that first sinned in the form of pride.

Sin, like darkness, existed...but was not yet empowered.

[Stevil]

As an amoral atheist I claim that morals are nonsensical, I claim that right and wrong is nonsensical. I do not have faith whatsoever with regards to what is right and what is wrong. I don't judge people by my standard of personal values.
This does not mean that I think society should operate in anarchy. We do need rules, rules that are aimed towards a functional, stable and safe society, certainly not someone's perception of a moral one.

Uh...what?  You have no "faith" in what is right or wrong?  Do you not use your own brain to figure what is right or wrong for yourself? You don't judge people by your standard of personal values?....yet we find snark and snide comments at other people's beliefs?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying...it's quite possible.

You most likely are misunderstanding. If you are not up with the concept, then it is something new to think about.
I don't term something as being right or wrong. Right and wrong are meaningless terms, these only serve to hide one's personal agenda. Using reason towards a goal a person can explain why an action is beneficial, detrimental or neutral.
My goal is that of a functional, stable and safe society. Why? Because I want to survive and I want my loved ones to survive as well.
If there was a god and it chooses to murder people via bears for simple verbal transgressions then I deem these activities as a personal threat to my survival and the survival of my loved ones. A society that I want to live within, (a functional, stable and safe society), must protect me and hence oppose this murderous god. The god, does what it does, I do not call it a sinner, but society must oppose it in whatever means is possible, otherwise society is not safe, I am not safe.

THIS I don't get...seriously.  Who is applying their faith to you???  Do you deny that you will some day die?  Who claimed you're working towards some Christian goal posts?  If you believe to be without sin...I don't care one bit.  But if you're asking IN A RELIGIOUS SECTION OF A FORUM, ideas from a Christian...why are you surprised and better yet, why are you annoyed???

Christians are applying their faith onto society, they create laws to stop society members doing things they deem immoral e.g. gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion etc. In some places they are trying to outlaw contraceptives, sex education etc. In the Bible belt atheists are often ostracised. Christianity being an exclusive group whom want to apply their faith onto all of society is a threat to me and my loved ones, no doubt.
When you AD tell me, that I will be judged by your god or say anything that ties me into your faith, I feel you are crossing boundaries. I would much more appreciate if you discussed stuff from a belief perspective and don't add me into this myth. It is not my myth, it doesn't apply to me. I don't think that I have ever told you that your god doesn't exist and that you won't have eternal happiness in heaven. I don't apply my non belief to you.

You continue to show you really don't understand what you are talking about in regard to the beliefs of Christians.

And you don't understand the atheist perspective, you seem incapable of looking at your belief with critical non belief eyes.
I only speak from the "I". I can only tell you about my perception of Christianity. My perception is correct in that it is my perception. I never claim to understand Christianity and to tell you what Christianity is all about. I do have an interest in understanding it because there are a lot of people in my society that are Christians and also I see it as a threat. So I explore, I ask questions, and I express my perception, this is the way I approach trying to understand something. If my perception is wrong I expect someone to correct me, or try to show me a different way to look at something. If they don't know what my perception is, how can they correct me, or explain something different to me?

[AnimatedDirt]

You most likely are misunderstanding. If you are not up with the concept, then it is something new to think about.
I don't term something as being right or wrong. Right and wrong are meaningless terms, these only serve to hide one's personal agenda. Using reason towards a goal a person can explain why an action is beneficial, detrimental or neutral.
My goal is that of a functional, stable and safe society. Why? Because I want to survive and I want my loved ones to survive as well.

So instead of telling your child they are doing something wrong, you instead say, "That action was not beneficial but detrimental and certainly not neutral to our goals."  Right and wrong are meaningless?  What about legal and illegal?  Left and Right?  Straight or curved?  These are all terms that certainly have meaning...the meaning we as a society put on them.  Sure one society's "right" may be "wrong" in another...that's not to say the terms are meaningless, it means their meaning derives from a alternate source.  Be that as it may, I'm not sure this has anything to do with the current discussion.  I respect that you feel this way and that your goal(s) is a functional, stable and safe society.

If there was a god and it chooses to murder people via bears for simple verbal transgressions then I deem these activities as a personal threat to my survival and the survival of my loved ones. A society that I want to live within, (a functional, stable and safe society), must protect me and hence oppose this murderous god. The god, does what it does, I do not call it a sinner, but society must oppose it in whatever means is possible, otherwise society is not safe, I am not safe.

The 'you', in this sense, is safe unless you show contempt for this God that claims to sustain life.  Or has this 'you' found the fountain of youth?

Christians are applying their faith onto society, they create laws to stop society members doing things they deem immoral e.g. gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion etc. In some places they are trying to outlaw contraceptives, sex education etc. In the Bible belt atheists are often ostracised. Christianity being an exclusive group whom want to apply their faith onto all of society is a threat to me and my loved ones, no doubt.
When you AD tell me, that I will be judged by your god or say anything that ties me into your faith, I feel you are crossing boundaries. I would much more appreciate if you discussed stuff from a belief perspective and don't add me into this myth. It is not my myth, it doesn't apply to me. I don't think that I have ever told you that your god doesn't exist and that you won't have eternal happiness in heaven. I don't apply my non belief to you.

It may be true of Christians at large, but I've not said you specifically (specifically respecting this point that you have brought up before).  What I did say is that YOU will die...and still clinging to your OWN faith...that is a faith that YOU know better.  I have tried to make the distiction of saying, "According to the piece of fiction" (we are in the Religious section of this forum, correct?), ALL will be raised from death to face judgment.  Are you apart of the piece of fiction?  I'm really trying to discuss under your terms...it's getting more and more difficult as you keep accusing me of including you.  If it slips, I apologize, but ever since the thread where you wanted me to call the bible, the piece of fiction, I've endeavored to do just that.

And you don't understand the atheist perspective, you seem incapable of looking at your belief with critical non belief eyes.
I only speak from the "I". I can only tell you about my perception of Christianity. My perception is correct in that it is my perception. I never claim to understand Christianity and to tell you what Christianity is all about. I do have an interest in understanding it because there are a lot of people in my society that are Christians and also I see it as a threat. So I explore, I ask questions, and I express my perception, this is the way I approach trying to understand something. If my perception is wrong I expect someone to correct me, or try to show me a different way to look at something. If they don't know what my perception is, how can they correct me, or explain something different to me?

And I'm telling you that your perception is one that is taken from surface value.  I dont' believe you REALLY do have an interest, as you say, in understanding it because it is evident in the manner in which you spout off all the "wrong, disguting, vile, slavery, murder, rape..." things in the piece of fiction without one ounce of knowledge of a possible interpretation.  Not one.  You just say, "God sent bears in to kill 42 children...how is that love?"  You conveniently avoid searching the original text in Hebrew (readily available online) different translations, and differning views of interpretation.  You miss that they were not "children" chanting from a merry-go-round, but were youths...at least teenagers...more along the lines of a gang...if you will.  A brood of troublemakers.  What the term meant in those days...who they had been taunting and who he was in this fictional God's eyes.  The lesson to the masses this sent... But that escapes you.

[Stevil]

The 'you', in this sense, is safe unless you show contempt for this God that claims to sustain life.  Or has this 'you' found the fountain of youth?

I have challenged it many times. I have called it "evil", murderous, unloving... (you name it, I've probably called it that). And yet, I still live.
Not sure what you mean by the fountain of youth comment.

that is a faith that YOU know better. 

I am trying hard not to get frustrated here. I have stated I have no faith, no belief in wrong and right. I have stated that there are many unknowns, I don't claim to know everything. For what is it that you are accusing me of stating that I know better?

I dont' believe you REALLY do have an interest, as you say, in understanding it because it is evident in the manner in which you spout off all the "wrong, disguting, vile, slavery, murder, rape..." things in the piece of fiction without one ounce of knowledge of a possible interpretation.  Not one.  You just say, "God sent bears in to kill 42 children...how is that love?"  You conveniently avoid searching the original text in Hebrew (readily available online) different translations, and differning views of interpretation.  You miss that they were not "children" chanting from a merry-go-round, but were youths...at least teenagers...more along the lines of a gang...if you will.  A brood of troublemakers.  What the term meant in those days...who they had been taunting and who he was in this fictional God's eyes.  The lesson to the masses this sent... But that escapes you.

To me it is beside the point if they were children or in their Twenties. To me it is beside the point who it was that they were calling names. The crime is the same, the Christian god is behaving dangerously towards humans, almost at random. These excuses doesn't make the situation look any less murderous.