I had initially posted this on that thread If when you die you meet God... (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9100.0), but then quickly removed it thinking this may be an interesting topic. Not sure.
So who would you pick (obviously anyone in history is available to you as a choice) to have a debate with the Christian God? Maybe you yourself think you have sufficient knowledge to take the debate?
Personally, since I don't know many of the staunch historical Atheists, I would have to pick either Hitchens or Dawkins. I wonder if Dawkins would make time for God given he doesn't waste time on such things...?
Thoughts?
Debate with god... Hitchens. Conversation with god, I think I would go with Hypatia.
Edit: I'm going to change my debat answer to Osiris. That way we can solve the horus/jesus issue once and for all.
Zippy from Rainbow
If there is a god Hitchens has already ripped him several new ones. ;)
Dawkins would work, too. Maybe a "good cop-bad cop" combo?
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 19, 2012, 08:10:13 PM
If there is a god Hitchens has already ripped him several new ones. ;)
Dawkins would work, too. Maybe a "good cop-bad cop" combo?
I would be sitting on the edge of my seat.
The Asmo. Would be... Unique. ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
The Asmo. Would be... Unique. ;D
One would hope that God is not present in the form of fire so as to not dryout the grumpy lump... :)
It would be a monologue given that even if a god exists, it doesn't interact with people, it certainly doesn't speak to people and it most certainly isn't open to debate with mere humans.
You disagree or question it, you end up smited (according to my perception of the bible). Not sure about other gods, they might be much more accommodating than the one described in the OT.
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 08:39:11 PM
It would be a monologue given that even if a god exists, it doesn't interact with people, it certainly doesn't speak to people and it most certainly isn't open to debate with mere humans.
You disagree or question it, you end up smited (according to my perception of the bible). Not sure about other gods, they might be much more accommodating than the one described in the OT.
I disagree. I think he'd be more than willing to allow a debate...if he existed.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
The Asmo. Would be... Unique. ;D
One would hope that God is not present in the form of fire so as to not dryout the grumpy lump... :)
Asmopottery, it is still deadly ferocious, yes. :D
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 08:44:17 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:38:36 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
The Asmo. Would be... Unique. ;D
One would hope that God is not present in the form of fire so as to not dryout the grumpy lump... :)
Asmopottery, it is still deadly ferocious, yes. :D
...and quite possibly aesthetically appealing too.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:43:22 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 08:39:11 PM
It would be a monologue given that even if a god exists, it doesn't interact with people, it certainly doesn't speak to people and it most certainly isn't open to debate with mere humans.
You disagree or question it, you end up smited (according to my perception of the bible). Not sure about other gods, they might be much more accommodating than the one described in the OT.
I disagree. I think he'd be more than willing to allow a debate...if he existed.
Well, that should be rock solid proof to you then that there is no god in existence.
Unless of course you rationalise that noone has attempted to engage your god in debate or that the endless silence offered by your god in response is the perfect response.
Depends on what the debate would be about.
If the debate is about the pros/cons of drug use, I nominate pytheas or Crow
Anything to do with horses or lizards or taxidermied animals - Budhorse
Books - BooksCatsEtc
Morality and Why We Don't Need It - Stevil
Pottery and Other Plans for World Domination - Asmo
Nat King Cole songs and/or Dancing Cats - Amicale
Hats - Pudding
Dogs and Assorted Swear Words - Tank
Can You Be a Ninja and a Sniper At the Same Time - Guardian
Looking Cool - Sweet D
Why Bad Puns Are the Best - Me
I'm sure there are tons of other subject matter experts on here.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:46:38 PM
...and quite possibly aesthetically appealing too.
Ooh! Quite irresistable when decorated with some bloodied thornbush patterns. ;D
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
Well, that should be rock solid proof to you then that there is no god in existence.
No real sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that me thinking the Christian God would be open to a debate is proof that this God doesn't exist? First of all, the premise, which I obviously didn't make clear but alluded to by where I initially was going to post, is that the debate is at the fictional end of time. Obviously this would be the time when ANYONE is available to debate.
Quote from: StevilUnless of course you rationalise that noone has attempted to engage your god in debate or that the endless silence offered by your god in response is the perfect response.
Rationalize... I wont get into it here.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:46:38 PM
...and quite possibly aesthetically appealing too.
Ooh! Quite irresistable when decorated with some bloodied thornbush patterns. ;D
...and nails to hold you in place?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:57:45 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 08:47:46 PM
Well, that should be rock solid proof to you then that there is no god in existence.
No real sure what you're getting at. Are you saying that me thinking the Christian God would be open to a debate is proof that this God doesn't exist? First of all, the premise, which I obviously didn't make clear but alluded to by where I initially was going to post, is that the debate is at the fictional end of time. Obviously this would be the time when ANYONE is available to debate.
End of time, nice excuse for rationalisation.
The god will debate, but only at the end of times - stay tuned.
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 09:02:38 PM
End of time, nice excuse for rationalisation.
The god will debate, but only at the end of times - stay tuned.
That is the premise of the thread. You don't like it?
The only way I could answer this question is by imagining it in the laid back lounge. Why not just move it there?
Quote from: Genericguy on January 19, 2012, 09:13:33 PM
The only way I could answer this question is by imagining it in the laid back lounge. Why not just move it there?
I don't make those decisions...nor would it bother me if it was. I just figured it was a "God" topic...best put it in Religion.
Quote from: Ali on January 19, 2012, 08:51:01 PM
Depends on what the debate would be about.
If the debate is about the pros/cons of drug use, I nominate pytheas or Crow
I think Pytheas would be a far better choice for that than me. I have a basic understanding but pytheas takes it to a whole other level.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 09:12:23 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 09:02:38 PM
End of time, nice excuse for rationalisation.
The god will debate, but only at the end of times - stay tuned.
That is the premise of the thread. You don't like it?
It is extremely convenient for the believer and quite a source of frustration for the non believer who is trying to take other people's beliefs seriously.
It wasn't stated as a premise of this thread but thanks for adding it.
I think a great person to debate would be Kevin Crady. Here is a tread of interesting posts by this person
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18666.0.html
And two examples
Quote
For you Christians posting here, I would like you to take a moment to consider exactly what it is you're doing with the arguments you're offering, i.e. what, exactly those arguments are designed to do.
They are all answers to one question: Why is it that Universe looks so much like one in which my all-powerful, prayer-answering, miracle-working God doesn't exist? A Universe in which amputees were magically healed as a result of prayer would look very different from one in which they're not. We all agree that they're not healed as a result of prayer. We've got that in common.
We agree that we live in a Universe that is, for all practical intents and purposes, miracle-free. We all agree that Christian property developers can't ask God to lift mountains out of their way. People who make earth-moving equipment are in no danger of losing their jobs. We agree that doctors, the makers of prosthetic limbs, etc. all have job security that no Christian or group of Christians will ever threaten to render obsolete with the power of faith. Period.
We agree that even the most devout Christians, if they want to feed starving children in Africa, have to get on TV and raise money, instead of just handing out the loaves and fishes. Period. We both agree that even the most devout Christian, if he or she wants to pay the bills or the taxes, has to get a job, send in checks, fill out 1040's, etc. You can't expect to go catch a fish and have a gold coin fall out of its mouth. Period.
We agree that Christians and Atheists (as well as Hindus, Buddhists, etc.) are all subject to the same generalized operational principles of physics. In your day-to-day life, out here in gritty ol' reality, you have to live exactly the same way we do. Period.
The only difference between us is that you profess to believe in the existence of an entity that can and will suspend those generalized operational principles of physics in response to prayer...but he never ever does (for many perfectly good reasons, of course) except in the legendary past.
In other words, the Universe you live in is every bit as atheistic as ours is. You just have to go to a great deal of theological rationalization, Bible interpretation, and so forth, to explain why the world we live in is so completely misleading that it looks exactly as it would if your God did not exist. If it were otherwise, "faith" would be unnecessary.
An atheist doesn't have to learn the kind of linguistic and scientific Matrix-dodging you have to master to be a Christian. We can just accept Universe as it is. If we want to restore amputated limbs, then it's up to us to develop robotic prosthesis technology or the ability to clone, grow, and attach replacements. And that's exactly what you have to do, too.
The difference between us is that this inescapable fact fits naturally with our worldview. To make it fit with yours, you have to go to great pains to explain why and how Jesus didn't mean what he said without saying he was lying. The hypothesis of the miracle-working-God-who-never-does can be sliced away with a simple application of Occam's Razor.
Quote
Now, turn in your Bible with me please, to Numbers 31:17 and read along with me:
"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves".
Now, if you note the context of the above passage (and we know you Christians love context), you will see that the man issuing the above command was Moses, and he really wanted to murder the little girls too. One more thing you should note is that Moses was forbidden to enter the Promised Land...because he ordered genocide followed by mass child molestation? Nope. Because he hit a rock with a stick when God didn't want him to.
Now, I want you to take a moment to go on a little imaginary journey with me.
You are an 11-year-old Midianite girl. You've heard about this new tribe that's passing through. A woman from your village married one of their men some time ago, but they killed her and her husband. You don't know why, because nobody talks to you about these things. You're just a kid. But you've also heard that the new tribe's leader stayed with another Midianite tribe for 40 years and married a Midianite himself, so they can't be all that bad.
But then one day there's a war! The other tribe wins, and their army herds you, your mother, and your two little brothers, along with everyone else you know, and takes you back to your camp. You're lost in the crowd and never catch a glimpse of the new leader, but then people start screaming, and soon you find out why. The enemy warriors are killing everybody!
One of them cuts your mother down with a sword as she tries to shield you and the boys with her body. Your little brothers are taken one by one and killed before your eyes. You close your eyes in terror, waiting for the sword to hit, but it doesn't. Instead, the man throws you down, lifts your skirt, pries open your labia and checks to make sure you're still a virgin. His fingers are sticky with the blood of your family.
Then, he drags you to his tent to make you his...
Quote from: Stevil on January 19, 2012, 09:30:12 PM
It wasn't stated as a premise of this thread but thanks for adding it.
I can see that. It wasn't clear but in my own head, that premise. Acknowledged.
What makes this premise interesting (to me) is that the whole of Mankind is present to hear.
Edit: The above line added.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:59:03 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 08:54:17 PM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:46:38 PM
...and quite possibly aesthetically appealing too.
Ooh! Quite irresistable when decorated with some bloodied thornbush patterns. ;D
...and nails to hold you in place?
Wouldn't work. Asmos, they eat nails. And babies. The combination of the two, called a
porcubaby is particularly nice.
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 10:01:07 PM
Wouldn't work. Asmos, they eat nails. And babies. The combination of the two, called a porcubaby is particularly nice.
Nails...as used for nailing something up? It sounds as though you may be referring to finger nails here...?? I could be wrong. If so, you missed the "funny".
I guess the problem that I have with answering this question seriously is, if God revealed himself at the end of the world, what would be the point in debating? Obviously I'm not going to debate whether or not he exists if he's standing in front of me. I could debate why it was a major mindfuck for him to not give any evidence of his existence, but assuming that he's actually all knowing, he knows that it was a mindfuck and did it anyway.
Me: All you had to do is actually make yourself known and we would have believed in you.
Him: I didn't because I wanted to test your faith.
Me: Test? Aren't you all knowing? Didn't you know ahead of time that all of us atheists would fail?
Him: Oh course I did.
Me: So why? That's not much of a test.
Him: I'm God. That's how I roll.
Me: Well, I don't think it's fair that I'm going to hell because you never showed yourself when you knew very well that would cause me to not believe in you.
Him: Oh well. Fair schmair, I'm God, I do what I want. *Sends Ali to hell*
That's not much of a debate, so what are we supposed to be debating?
Quote from: Ali on January 19, 2012, 10:10:47 PM
That's not much of a debate, so what are we supposed to be debating?
Obviously not his existence in this sense, but anything else that the Atheist argues as "wrong".
e.g. Why does the bible condone slavery, rape,...?" As is commonly thought.
Lots of things one might choose to debate with this fictional god.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 10:16:40 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 19, 2012, 10:10:47 PM
That's not much of a debate, so what are we supposed to be debating?
Obviously not his existence in this sense, but anything else that the Atheist argues as "wrong".
e.g. Why does the bible condone slavery, rape,...?" As is commonly thought.
Lots of things one might choose to debate with this fictional god.
But if he's god, what's the point in debating? Like, any of us could rage away at him about all sorts of topics, but would we actually have a chance of changing his mind? If he is all knowing, wouldn't he know what we were going to say, know that he was wrong, and change his ways before we ever even got in that sitaution? Or conversely, know what we were going to say, know that he thought we were wrong, and have done it anyway?
Quote from: Ali on January 19, 2012, 10:20:52 PM
But if he's god, what's the point in debating? Like, any of us could rage away at him about all sorts of topics, but would we actually have a chance of changing his mind?
Well...who knows.
Quote from: AliIf he is all knowing, wouldn't he know what we were going to say, know that he was wrong, and change his ways before we ever even got in that sitaution?
Well, not if he is all knowing...wouldn't that be an eternal trait and therefore when he's made the claim of "I do not change." be that he's already worked out the bugs, if you will?
Quote from: AliOr conversely, know what we were going to say, know that he thought we were wrong, and have done it anyway?
It's not really suppposed to be that in-depth, this thread. I guess it can be though. I didn't start this thread to create another "debate" whether God exists or not.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on January 19, 2012, 10:01:07 PM
Wouldn't work. Asmos, they eat nails. And babies. The combination of the two, called a porcubaby is particularly nice.
Nails...as used for nailing something up? It sounds as though you may be referring to finger nails here...?? I could be wrong. If so, you missed the "funny".
Obviously not! Asmos, they don't have finger nails. They ate those long ago. You take baby, nail it full of nails, so they stick out every which way, roast, add habanero peppers, EAT. Simple, yes? :D
I mean... if the christian god did exist and was in fact omniscient, there's not much to debate about. I guess I would like to converse with him about all the terrible shit that happens in the world. Although I would think he wouldn't really speak any known language, as any one that we created would just be filled with limitations.
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 19, 2012, 11:36:36 PM
I mean... if the christian god did exist and was in fact omniscient, there's not much to debate about.
Another reason I changed my answer to the god Osiris.
Anyone in history.....hmmmmm....
Well, I don't think I'd like to debate anyone. But I think I would enjoy watching a debate...a few in fact.
Jesus vs Paul
The winner goes on to debate Muhammad.
The winner of that would debate Joseph Smith
Quote from: Genericguy on January 19, 2012, 11:43:04 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 19, 2012, 11:36:36 PM
I mean... if the christian god did exist and was in fact omniscient, there's not much to debate about.
Another reason I changed my answer to the god Osiris.
I would rather speak to the Shinto God Susanoo anyway. He's so cool~
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 20, 2012, 12:33:25 AM
Quote from: Genericguy on January 19, 2012, 11:43:04 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 19, 2012, 11:36:36 PM
I mean... if the christian god did exist and was in fact omniscient, there's not much to debate about.
Another reason I changed my answer to the god Osiris.
I would rather speak to the Shinto God Susanoo anyway. He's so cool~
Bishamonten is cooler.
How about a debate between Siri (http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/siri.html) and iGod (http://www.titane.ca/main.html)...
No fair. iGod asked for some gossip and then complained that I "have no respect" when I told him some. Typical.
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 20, 2012, 12:40:11 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 20, 2012, 12:33:25 AM
Quote from: Genericguy on January 19, 2012, 11:43:04 PM
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 19, 2012, 11:36:36 PM
I mean... if the christian god did exist and was in fact omniscient, there's not much to debate about.
Another reason I changed my answer to the god Osiris.
I would rather speak to the Shinto God Susanoo anyway. He's so cool~
Bishamonten is cooler.
He's cool too, but i'm a bigger fan f Izanagi's children. Especially Susanoo and Tsukiyomi.
A debate between the Swedish chef from the muppets (or Beaker or Animal) and the christian god would be funny as.
Wouldn't know who would be more understandable between the two but the entertainment value would be extremely high.
Zeus, Allah, Odin, Baal, Isis, Mithras, take your pick. I'd choose a god to debate a god. Otherwise I'm with Stevil in thinking Animal from the Muppets could probably give it a good go.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:43:22 PMI disagree. I think he'd be more than willing to allow a debate...if he existed.
But he doesn't, so, to be fair, we should probably choose a non-existant individual for him to debate. I see this as a Pay-per-View event like Wrestlemania but with god and, I dunno, maybe Smokey the Bear.
Quote from: MadBomr101 on January 21, 2012, 03:52:21 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on January 19, 2012, 08:43:22 PMI disagree. I think he'd be more than willing to allow a debate...if he existed.
But he doesn't, so, to be fair, we should probably choose a non-existant individual for him to debate. I see this as a Pay-per-View event like Wrestlemania but with god and, I dunno, maybe Smokey the Bear.