It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.
If I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot. If I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end. That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).
But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.
When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It's actually something that is very difficult to do.
If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.
And I'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.
Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.
Awwwww you couldn't stay away, you must love us really :D
Welcome back! ;D
How's life treating you?
Is your book progressing well?
Quote from: Tank on January 11, 2012, 07:58:35 PM
Awwwww you couldn't stay away, you must love us really :D
Group hug!!!
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
...When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us...
Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?
I like that ring you have on your cross; is that barbed wire?
Quote from: Traveler on January 11, 2012, 08:27:52 PM
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
...When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us...
Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?
*ahem*
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9076.0 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9076.0)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 11, 2012, 08:32:36 PM
*ahem*
http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9076.0 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=9076.0)
To be fair, it is later this year...
Ah. Ahem. Well then, Egor, how's it shakin'? ;)
Quote from: Traveler on January 11, 2012, 08:27:52 PMQuote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM...When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us...
Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?
It's not so much a problem of believing whatever is presented to us, as it is a problem of which thing we initially believe no matter what else is presented. I used to believe that atom bombs were called mushroon bombs because they used mushrooms, I think it was good that I stopped believing that in the face of evidence and reasoning.
I can see that. I think it's beyond doubt that it takes a certain level of rational contortionism to believe in something that cannot be proved. Although I'm not sure I would label it greater there is certainly more work involved in exercising your mind in a way that leads it to believe in something that is not there. This is why religions come replete with a myriad of tools that continuously exercise the mind into having a real(ish) experience with something that is not real. There is prayer, temples, churches, sermons, Sunday school, bible study, confession, sacrament and on and on. All of which are ritualistic exercises for the contortion of the mind. If I stretch my hamstrings regularly and with enough consistency then one day I may be able to smooch my own rump. It certainly took more effort to accomplish this than it would to simply walk. But is kissing your own ass greater than simply walking. It's subjective.
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.
If I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot. If I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end. That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).
A mediocre job of stating the obvious. *Yawn*
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
But this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.
Are you sure that we don't take at least some things on faith by reflex as well? How do you know that faith is
always an act of will? Can you support this idea with sound evidence and reasoning?
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It's actually something that is very difficult to do.
It seems to come easily for many people to reject evidence when it conflicts with their strongly held beliefs. In fact, they seem to do it reflexively, without involving their powers of reason at all. I'm not saying that you don't find it difficult,
Egor, but you are making a blanket statement here which is contrary to my experience with people who rely on their faith to guide them through life. Your personal experience of your own inner life is a point of information about you, but I don't see why we should accept its application to people of faith in general unless you somehow support that generalization with evidence and reasoning.
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.
The capability of ignoring facts is not an especially commendable quality, in my opinion.
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
And I'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.
Maybe you could expand on this point. One could as easily say that a person
believes that they're protected by space aliens, despite an apparent lack of tangible evidence which supports the existence of those aliens. Why is this belief in any way inferior to that of a person who believes that they're protected by a guardian angel, despite an apparent lack of tangible evidence which supports the existence of guardian angels? These seem to be equivalent situations to me, and I don't think that you've sufficiently differentiated between what you call "delusion" and what you call "faith."
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.
How does this jibe with Hebrews 11:1? There is no mention of rationality preceding faith in that passage, nor in similar passages such as Romans 8:24, 2 Corinthians 4:18, and 2 Corinthians 5:7.
Faith is Greater than reason.
Hmmmm.
5 is greater than 2 because 5 comes after 2
If I look in a dictionary I am sure Reason comes after Faith hence Reason is greater than Faith.
Also
Faith consists of 5 letters where as Reason consists of 6 letters so again Reason is greater than Faith.
I win.
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 09:41:14 PM
Faith is Greater than reason.
Hmmmm.
5 is greater than 2 because 5 comes after 2
If I look in a dictionary I am sure Reason comes after Faith hence Reason is greater than Faith.
Also
Faith consists of 5 letters where as Reason consists of 6 letters so again Reason is greater than Faith.
I win.
This is rock solid proof if I've ever seen it!
I don't feel special any more. *Pouts*
http://www.christianforums.com/t7623241/
http://www.worthychristianforums.com/index.php?/topic/147806-faith-is-greater-than-reason/
http://thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Faith-is-Greater-than-Reason
Funny story, I stumbled upon these because I was googling for images to use in a "Faith Grating Raisins" visual pun I was going to post. But I'm not great at photoshopping, so it's probably for the best that I got sidetracked by Egor's sneaky Christian trickery.
As far as I can tell, Egor is trying to generate traffic onto his blog site.
He goes to other sites, makes ridiculous claims and hence gets many people wanting to point out how illogical his points are. Once he generates interest in people to respond to him, he then tells everyone he has to go and focus on his book writting but that he will be contactable on his own blog site for further discussion.
It is a very lonely site over there, a bit of abuse from atheists whom he has insulted and then claimed victory over, but no decent conversations or anything worthy of interest IMHO.
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 10:43:20 PM
He goes to other sites, makes ridiculous claims and hence gets many people wanting to point out how illogical his points are. Once he generates interest in people to respond to him, he then tells everyone he has to go and focus on his book writting but that he will be contactable on his own blog site for further discussion.
Yup.
So if I use my will to believe that he's not actually there does that make it true?
Ah, poor Egor. Bad attention is still attention right?
Anyone want to help me make a picture of Faith Grating Raisins that he can post on his blog and talk to?
What a shocker. Edward is spamming various forums with copypasta.
Limp.
The Asmo would come out and play, but he is currently playing stoner song game in some stoner's delusional god thread. :D
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you. I believe the sky is blue. I believe there are alligators in the lake next to my house. I believe gravity exists. There is no choice but to believe these things, and it is a very natural reaction to make reasonable judgments based on such knowledge that is so obvious to me.
I do not believe in the things you mentioned. I KNOW these things to be true, with the exception of the sky is not blue but I know why it appears that way. I do not know there are alligators in the lake next to your house. But it is not beyond credulity.
QuoteIf I go swimming in the lake, I might lose a foot.
And you may not.
QuoteIf I drop a water balloon off the Sears Tower in Chicago, it will make a big splash in the end.
It could break before it hits the ground.
Quote
That's normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past (e.g., others have been bit by alligators in similar lakes).
I have swam in many lakes and I would say that most lakes are all similar. But none of the lakes I have swum in did not have alligators in them.
QuoteBut this is not the highest level of human mental functioning anymore than the peristalsis that leads to a good poop is a victory of human achievement. We observe and reason by reflex. Faith on the other hand requires will.
Well, first off, equating or analogising a great bowel movement to critical thinking skills is where your faith leads you astray. Now, as far as will and faith goes...
I defy you to grip a baseball bat, summon all your will through faith and ask god to not make it hurt or leave a mark when you hit yourself over the head with it. Do this several times.
QuoteWhen we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It's actually something that is very difficult to do.
What? As demanding as it may be, just do the baseball bat test and let us know how you're doing.
Quote
If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist, or if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, this takes more mental capability than simply being rational.
Ahhhh...ok. So when you have a massive bump (along with a massive headache), some blood and finally get up from a prone position on the floor, you will be telling us that there is indeed no headache, blood or lump/s because your mental capacity was such to prevent it, even though we could quite easily see lump/s and blood.
QuoteAnd I'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.
So asking a god to protect you in some alligator infested lake is not faith...but is rational?
You are so full of it, Egor....*chucklin*
Quote from: Twentythree on January 11, 2012, 08:44:26 PM
But is kissing your own ass greater than simply walking. It's subjective.
I'd like to nominate this as the profound thought of the day. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg87.imageshack.us%2Fimg87%2F1205%2Fwinedheers.gif&hash=049ea987d0c68a814892072ff9ce05e763794091)
Well, I looked at it, and gave a go at trying to understand it. There's some interesting, almost poetic, philosophical ideas here.
I will zero in on the thing about Rationality. Hypothetically, as a Rationality as a stepping stone toward Faith. Without that first stepping stone, your not going to get to the next stepping stone, though. Adjust the metaphor a little, make it the first step on a staircase, or a ladder. Or the stones at the base of a pillar? Maybe I'll just go back to the stepping stone. If the Rationality Stepping Stone is weak or rickety, then you're not going to get anywhere near Faith. Which still makes Rationality the most important first step. It needs to be a strong fundamental before you get to the other steps, including Faith. I'm not sure if I'm seeing Rationality as a stepping stone toward Faith per se. I think maybe Faith has a different relationship with Rationality.
I hope fellow forum members will bear with me as I indulge and branch out into territory that is discussed on one of the other forums over this same thread. The poster in The Thinking Atheist forum called The Bearded Dude brought up Faith and Trust, when he says that Faith is not equal to Trust. I think he quantifies it by saying that Trust is something we can invest a measure in based on past experience; Rational experience as a stepping stone leading us to make conclusions about how much we can trust in a person/event/deity to behave in a consistent manner. He goes on to say that Faith doesn't use the stepping stone of Rationality; I'll throw out the cliche "Leap of Faith" and the imagery of jumping over the Rationality stepping stone into a dark area that you can't see. Maybe that's partly what he was suggesting. I'm not quite sure how it pertains to Egor's OP, it's a bit above my head.
I latched onto trust because it's resonates very personally. Without meaning to antagonize or throw things off (really), since we are on an atheist forum where Trust, Belief, and Faith in God is not taken as an assumed automatic thing. I'm sure there are many reasons why people abandon Faith or decided not to invest trust in Faith as asked for by religion in the first place. Maybe some people jumped over the Rationality Stepping Stone, and felt like they needed to swim back and try and find a more sturdy stone because they missed the Faith stepping stone, or the Faith stepping stone wobbled and threw them in the pond. An alternative scenario might see a different person who walked on the Rationality Stepping Stone, then a few others; and when they got to the Faith Stepping Stone they found it wasn't there, or they stood on it and it wobbled underneath them and spill them into the water. Or they didn't spill into the water, yet deemed that the Faith Stepping Stone was a dubious prospect to put their weight (trust) on, and stepped back/looked for a different stone?
Ehhh...I'm going to stop, hopefully I'm not butchering a metaphor too badly. If it makes sense, maybe other people may have a different take, or maybe a totally different metaphor suggests itself. There's certainly room for refinement, even from the ground up. But that baseline, the foundation, that first step, does have to be stronger than what's built on it. :-[ ??? :-\
'faith is greater than reason' - this view ruled supreme in the Dark Ages.
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
And I'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true. A deluded person may think they are protected against alligators by space aliens. That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.
Like others have said, a belief in guardian space aliens seems no different to the belief in gods and saviours to me, no more rational, and no less based on faith. To an atheist, you appear no different to that man in the lake, you have plenty of delusions that you believe are real and live your life according to that faith.
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.
It seems to me that you only have to rely on faith and belief in your god because you have no concrete evidence. I also don't see how faith 'uses rationality as its stepping stone'. Personally I can't put superstition and the faith and belief in supernatural powers above rational logical thinking. Like I said above, that's the sort of thing people did in the Dark Ages.
Something tells me he isn't going to come back this time. :-\
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 12, 2012, 01:42:51 PM
Something tells me he isn't going to come back this time. :-\
Oh I think he will. Like a bad penny he'll keep turning up and doing atheism a power of good each time he opens his mouth ;D
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 12, 2012, 03:30:14 AM
Quote from: Twentythree on January 11, 2012, 08:44:26 PM
But is kissing your own ass greater than simply walking. It's subjective.
I'd like to nominate this as the profound thought of the day. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg87.imageshack.us%2Fimg87%2F1205%2Fwinedheers.gif&hash=049ea987d0c68a814892072ff9ce05e763794091)
Seconded!
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 12, 2012, 09:11:42 AM
I hope fellow forum members will bear with me as I indulge and branch out into territory that is discussed on one of the other forums over this same thread. The poster in The Thinking Atheist forum called The Bearded Dude brought up Faith and Trust, when he says that Faith is not equal to Trust. I think he quantifies it by saying that Trust is something we can invest a measure in based on past experience; Rational experience as a stepping stone leading us to make conclusions about how much we can trust in a person/event/deity to behave in a consistent manner. He goes on to say that Faith doesn't use the stepping stone of Rationality; I'll throw out the cliche "Leap of Faith" and the imagery of jumping over the Rationality stepping stone into a dark area that you can't see. Maybe that's partly what he was suggesting. I'm not quite sure how it pertains to Egor's OP, it's a bit above my head.
I latched onto trust because it's resonates very personally. Without meaning to antagonize or throw things off (really), since we are on an atheist forum where Trust, Belief, and Faith in God is not taken as an assumed automatic thing. I'm sure there are many reasons why people abandon Faith or decided not to invest trust in Faith as asked for by religion in the first place. Maybe some people jumped over the Rationality Stepping Stone, and felt like they needed to swim back and try and find a more sturdy stone because they missed the Faith stepping stone, or the Faith stepping stone wobbled and threw them in the pond. An alternative scenario might see a different person who walked on the Rationality Stepping Stone, then a few others; and when they got to the Faith Stepping Stone they found it wasn't there, or they stood on it and it wobbled underneath them and spill them into the water. Or they didn't spill into the water, yet deemed that the Faith Stepping Stone was a dubious prospect to put their weight (trust) on, and stepped back/looked for a different stone?
Ehhh...I'm going to stop, hopefully I'm not butchering a metaphor too badly. If it makes sense, maybe other people may have a different take, or maybe a totally different metaphor suggests itself. There's certainly room for refinement, even from the ground up. But that baseline, the foundation, that first step, does have to be stronger than what's built on it. :-[ ??? :-\
Or maybe from Rationality, the Knowledge stone looked like a more solid place to jump to, on the way to, Wisdom and Enlightenment.
this kind of reminds me of a guy swimming in an alligator filled lake thinking he's protected against alligators by space aliens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFfInoLquc)
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 12, 2012, 05:22:16 PM
this kind of reminds me of a guy swimming in an alligator filled lake thinking he's protected against alligators by space aliens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFfInoLquc)
Makes me think of what's inevitable when we confuse myth with reality.
You can be as much of a "holy man" as you like. To a lion you're still lunch!
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 12, 2012, 09:13:46 PM
You can be as much of a "holy man" as you like. To a lion you're still lunch!
He would be holy once the lions were through with him! :D
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 12, 2012, 01:42:51 PM
Something tells me he isn't going to come back this time. :-\
Th at was fast. I so missed all the fun. ;_:
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities. And couldn't it be said that the use of will is more godlike than the use of rationality? Thus if there is a God, it may well be the case that we grow closer to Him via the use of faith.
I don't think you can really compare faith and reason. That's apples and oranges. Faith may explore paths that reason rejects, but those paths can lead to blind alleys or box canyons with no way out. Like Kierkegaard, I envision a "leap of faith," where the path of reason and experience leads to a chasm, and one is faced with a challenge, a crisis. The sum total of one's personal experiences informs the choice to leap or not to leap. If the choice is "leap," then the result is either faith-building or hope-dashing. Pure reason may say "don't jump." But something in the individual's constitution may counsel differently.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on January 11, 2012, 10:15:44 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 09:41:14 PM
Faith is Greater than reason.
Hmmmm.
5 is greater than 2 because 5 comes after 2
If I look in a dictionary I am sure Reason comes after Faith hence Reason is greater than Faith.
Also
Faith consists of 5 letters where as Reason consists of 6 letters so again Reason is greater than Faith.
I win.
This is rock solid proof if I've ever seen it!
I agree. Have you ever considered becoming an apologist?
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 12, 2012, 05:22:16 PM
this kind of reminds me of a guy swimming in an alligator filled lake thinking he's protected against alligators by space aliens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atFfInoLquc)
Now
he has faith! :o
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fth106.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm252%2FRiverIsMyGoddess%2Ficons%2Fth_smiley_sharkattack.gif&hash=05972173ea58a10714e04eb810c35d4f976cb369)
Not an alligator but a shark, it'll have to do ;D
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 13, 2012, 01:07:38 AM
Quote from: Budhorse4 on January 12, 2012, 01:42:51 PM
Something tells me he isn't going to come back this time. :-\
Th at was fast. I so missed all the fun. ;_:
I'm very sure that he'll be back again.
Stevil! You're famous!
(Not to drive more traffic to Renh Renh's blog, but I can't help myself but check in and see what tomfoolery he has been up to now. And he names you, by name! You're a celebrity!)
Whoooa, Stevil~~ i'm jealous xP
Oh my.
He has quote mined me and made out that we were having a jovial conversation with the title of his blog post
"Stevil and I Discuss Faith".
I was actually responding to another poster, not to Egor, so it is incredibly dishonest for him to state "Stevil and I discuss faith"
He didn't even ask me if he could use my post on his blog.
My full post is as follows.
I have bolded the part that he used on his blog.
Quote
The thing about faith though, is that you never have to put it to the test. It never crosses over into the material reality. Otherwise it could be proved and once proved then it is no longer faith.
Faith is about imagining that unprovable concepts are in fact not conceptual but real. The word for this is metaphysical. The fantastic thing about the metaphysical is that it is untestable and unmeasurable.
In this way you can dream up a personal god like creature that loves you and happens to agree with all of your morals, laugh at all your jokes and just simply thinks you are the most wonderful person on the planet. You can be so in tune with this personal god of yours that you could consider it your best friend in the whole wide world. You can even make a BFF pact with it. Isn't that nice. Gives you warm fuzzies, love, love, love. Oh how I wish I could believe in this.
My physical friends just ridicule me, those b'stards!
He is doing this so that he can build up an internet presence. He wants content on his blog but no-one will participate other than throw insults at him. So now he is resorting to quote mining from posts made on other forums. It is very, very sad to think about the issues this poor lad has. I do seriously think he needs professional help.
I wish he would stop being embarrassing with his "My ideas are nuclear fire on Atheist forums!" Maybe he doesn't feel embarrassed, but I wince inside when I see those words on his blog, and I compare his personal feelings about his presented ideas here, which I don't find compelling (and others here don't seem too fussed, either). Nuclear fire...oh, brother. It's unbearably...undignified. It's undignified to be so boastful, and even worse when basis of his boasting is unfounded or unproven. ::) :-[
Slightly ironically, one of his threads, combined with the comments of a Christian on one of the Christian forums I visited made me troubled about de-humanizing practices, and I convinced me to question it on a couple of Christian forums. I've been forced to conclude as a result that the conversations from the threads I've introduced in all earnest intent have diminished my regard for Christianity, since it seems like the text of the Bible, combined with long developed Christian doctrine has lodged deeply into the structure of organized Christianity's psyche a fundamental questioning of non-Christian's basic capability to be human. I won't dismiss the possibility that I'm misreading the sum total of the situation based on the discourse on such a small sampling of internet traffic. I think that Christian's really should be constantly discussing the issue though, if nothing else to keep on their guard against oversimplifying their assumptions about people and the world. I would do it myself, make it a mission, but I'm only one person, of questionable spiritual standing. :sad shrug:
I'm not going to say it was a victory, or a cause for celebration, but (only vaguely amusingly) troubling and disturbing that Christians on one forum were doing all kinds of mental gymnastics to enable Christians as higher while at the same time not diminishing non-Christians as respectably enough human. Scrambling to have their cake and eat it. On the other Christian forum, they weren't too worried, simply dismissing non-Christian's goodwill intentions and actions as tainted (they said spiritually on par with being smeared with excrement). >:( On one forum, scrambling, arguing (in some cases they were even getting a bit short with each other), on another simply justifying with the dissection and deconstruction of (arguably political) religious doctrine with the ultimate conclusion in no real doubt. :shakes head in despair:
I actually think he might be a little dangerous. Not in a "Oh noes, I'm scared he's going to convert me to Christianity!" kind of way, but in a "Delusions of Grandeur + an unnatural fixation on a group that he considers 'the enemy' = if he had a gun he might shoot one of us and crow about being a warrior for God" kind of way.
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 07:21:11 PM
I actually think he might be a little dangerous. Not in a "Oh noes, I'm scared he's going to convert me to Christianity!" kind of way, but in a "Delusions of Grandeur + an unnatural fixation on a group that he considers 'the enemy' = if he had a gun he might shoot one of us and crow about being a warrior for God" kind of way.
Yes, all the abuse he gets thrown at him from atheists, I can see how he might internalise that we are angry satanic people.
He certainly has "Delusions of Grandeur", he ended his Stevil blog with
Quote
Even if I have to go back to the words of Jesus and the early Christians and reinvent the wheel, I'm going to teach people how to develop miracle-working faith.
I don't know if he believes what he says or if he just thinks he can drum up some interest in his book and hence make some money.
But the way he is going about it, well, I don't see that anyone, who know who he is, will be interested in paying money for his book
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 13, 2012, 07:00:20 PM
I wish he would stop being embarrassing with his "My ideas are nuclear fire on Atheist forums!" Maybe he doesn't feel embarrassed, but I wince inside when I see those words on his blog, and I compare his personal feelings about his presented ideas here, which I don't find compelling (and others here don't seem too fussed, either). Nuclear fire...oh, brother. It's unbearably...undignified. It's undignified to be so boastful, and even worse when basis of his boasting is unfounded or unproven. ::) :-[
He should be quite embarrassed about that, but he seems to be very happy with his lack of self awareness.
He seems very content if he keeps coming back to try to convert us. :<
Christians remind me of fox news or any media. They love to cherry pick.. And alter info in their favor.
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 07:21:11 PM
I actually think he might be a little dangerous. Not in a "Oh noes, I'm scared he's going to convert me to Christianity!" kind of way, but in a "Delusions of Grandeur + an unnatural fixation on a group that he considers 'the enemy' = if he had a gun he might shoot one of us and crow about being a warrior for God" kind of way.
Naah... He's like one of those annoying little dogs that bark a lot, but are really wussies (I wanted to use a word that rhymes with wussies, but I try to keep it classy).
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 13, 2012, 09:22:51 PM
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 07:21:11 PM
I actually think he might be a little dangerous. Not in a "Oh noes, I'm scared he's going to convert me to Christianity!" kind of way, but in a "Delusions of Grandeur + an unnatural fixation on a group that he considers 'the enemy' = if he had a gun he might shoot one of us and crow about being a warrior for God" kind of way.
Naah... He's like one of those annoying little dogs that bark a lot, but are really wussies (I wanted to use a word that rhymes with wussies, but I try to keep it classy).
Cat? ;D
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 08:14:31 PM
How's life treating you?
Is your book progressing well?
Life is going good, Stevil, and yes, my book is progressing quite well, thanks for asking. I'm about to finish chapter three, probably tonight or tomorrow.
By the way everyone. I'm sorry I didn't come back in and reply sooner. I kind of made a mistake in that I posted it in all the forums I am in, and it got more of a response than I thought it would.
Watch out.
Watch out.
There's an Egor about! ;D
Quote from: Traveler on January 11, 2012, 08:27:52 PM
Are you seriously suggesting that we should choose to believe anything that's presented to us? Anything? Without any filters? Please say it isn't so. Even if you narrow that down to only your religious leaders, that's pretty darn gullible. Or am I misunderstanding you?
I'm saying that once we make a stand to believe something with faith, we should believe it no matter what we see to the contrary. But even though that's what I meant to say, I've come to believe that is wrong. When it comes to miracle working faith which is what I am talking about, once we pray or command something, we should begin to see results that supersede the normal course of nature. If we pray for a healing in faith, we should see the person improve faster than they would if we hadn't prayed.
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 08:29:32 PM
I like that ring you have on your cross; is that barbed wire?
Crown of thorns, actually. But thank you. :)
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 08:18:36 AM
Quote from: Ali on January 11, 2012, 08:29:32 PM
I like that ring you have on your cross; is that barbed wire?
Crown of thorns, actually. But thank you. :)
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's brabed wire. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.createblog.com%2Fforums%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Fnod.gif&hash=a1cff5505588bed87b8abfb6f4b98cfdd1b8a0ab)
Quote from: Tank on January 14, 2012, 08:14:25 AM
Watch out.
Watch out.
There's an Egor about! ;D
Is this a variation on the hokey pokey? I like that game, it's simple and non-competitive! Except when Egor tries to turn us around... :D
Quote from: Recusant on January 11, 2012, 09:04:20 PM
Truth is Recusant, I don't think I can debate a lot of your points, because I'm not sure I'm qualified to do so. I had an opinion that faith is a greater mental activity than reason or rationality, but I may not have supported it too well in the OP.
I have come to realize I have a lot of learning to do when it comes to faith, and until then, I probably need to keep my mouth shut. I actually found the Bible verses you mentioned to be a big help. But I don't think that's the kind of faith I'm talking about. I'm not really talking about faith in God or Jesus Christ. I'm talking about miracle-working faith, and I think the two might be different things.
I did read your response, but I'm just not up to a good defense at this time.
Quote from: Stevil on January 11, 2012, 10:43:20 PM
As far as I can tell, Egor is trying to generate traffic onto his blog site.
He goes to other sites, makes ridiculous claims and hence gets many people wanting to point out how illogical his points are. Once he generates interest in people to respond to him, he then tells everyone he has to go and focus on his book writting but that he will be contactable on his own blog site for further discussion.
It is a very lonely site over there, a bit of abuse from atheists whom he has insulted and then claimed victory over, but no decent conversations or anything worthy of interest IMHO.
Let me let you in on a little secret about my blog: I post in it what I want to post, and if anyone reads it great. If no one reads it, great. It really doesn't make any difference to me. In fact, at this time I have a reason not to publicize it too much. And keep in mind, more people read me in the forums than read me on my blog. My blog is simply a way for people to learn more about me and my opinions.
So, no, I don't post in forums to increase traffic to my blog.
Quote from: McQ on January 11, 2012, 11:26:00 PM
What a shocker. Edward is spamming various forums with copypasta.
Limp.
Yeah, right. I am a member of seven different forums. I wanted opinions from all of them on this article I wrote about faith. So far, CFI has been the greatest benefit to me in that regard.
Believe it or not, I actually post in other forums besides Happy Atheist. :o
Quote from: Gawen on January 12, 2012, 01:27:56 AM
You are so full of it, Egor....*chucklin*
I'd like to make you aware of something, and I'm kind of using your response to tell everyone the same thing. I probably have around 200 replies to this OP over the forums that I have placed it in. When I go back to respond, I couldn't possible read them all. So what I do is look for an insult or some kind of blasphemy and as soon as I read it, I stop and go to the next post. I can get through a lot of dreck pretty fast that way. So while I'm sure you thought I read your post to get to the end of it, I didn't. I saw this bit at the end before ever reading it and decided not to read it but rather use it as a cautionary tale.
Bye, whoever you were. I never even read your nic.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 12, 2012, 01:11:55 PM
It seems to me that you only have to rely on faith and belief in your god because you have no concrete evidence. I also don't see how faith 'uses rationality as its stepping stone'. Personally I can't put superstition and the faith and belief in supernatural powers above rational logical thinking. Like I said above, that's the sort of thing people did in the Dark Ages.
But what do you do when you end up in the Dark Ages? An incurable disease, for instance. If faith is the creative force that brings things into existence, and if Jesus was right in trying to teach us to have faith and to use it, might it not be that we have not tapped the full human potential?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on January 13, 2012, 02:38:52 AM
I don't think you can really compare faith and reason. That's apples and oranges. Faith may explore paths that reason rejects, but those paths can lead to blind alleys or box canyons with no way out. Like Kierkegaard, I envision a "leap of faith," where the path of reason and experience leads to a chasm, and one is faced with a challenge, a crisis. The sum total of one's personal experiences informs the choice to leap or not to leap. If the choice is "leap," then the result is either faith-building or hope-dashing. Pure reason may say "don't jump." But something in the individual's constitution may counsel differently.
I think you're right. It was incorrect of me to talk about faith and reason together--unless that is, faith really works. If it does, then rationality and logic become secondary to developing the skill (or art?) of faith.
Quote from: Stevil on January 13, 2012, 06:59:07 PM
Oh my.
He has quote mined me and made out that we were having a jovial conversation with the title of his blog post
"Stevil and I Discuss Faith".
So what? You responded to what I wrote about this and I wanted to discuss it in my blog because there is no way to have a rational discussion in Raving Atheist--as you know. The title is not dishonest--YOU responded to my post. I merely answered it in my blog. And I'm not under any obligation to respond to every bit of your post. You wrote what you wrote.
And in case you haven't noticed. I get some 1500 hits a month on that blog, Christians and Atheists alike. You aren't the only one. My response to your post in Raving Atheist is something I wanted to share with all those who read my blog.
Quote from: Ali on January 13, 2012, 07:21:11 PM
I actually think he might be a little dangerous. Not in a "Oh noes, I'm scared he's going to convert me to Christianity!" kind of way, but in a "Delusions of Grandeur + an unnatural fixation on a group that he considers 'the enemy' = if he had a gun he might shoot one of us and crow about being a warrior for God" kind of way.
I'm an American. I have two guns. Imagine that? And yet, I've never shot anyone. How can that be? Oh yeah, I'm a Christian and I value other people as creations of God our Father!
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 10:45:27 AM
Quote from: Gawen on January 12, 2012, 01:27:56 AM
You are so full of it, Egor....*chucklin*
I'd like to make you aware of something, and I'm kind of using your response to tell everyone the same thing. I probably have around 200 replies to this OP over the forums that I have placed it in. When I go back to respond, I couldn't possible read them all. So what I do is look for an insult or some kind of blasphemy and as soon as I read it, I stop and go to the next post. I can get through a lot of dreck pretty fast that way. So while I'm sure you thought I read your post to get to the end of it, I didn't. I saw this bit at the end before ever reading it and decided not to read it but rather use it as a cautionary tale.
Bye, whoever you were. I never even read your nic.
Which is the typical theist response of shoving your fingers in your ears every time someone says something you don't like. Some kind of blasphemy? Need I remind you that everything we post in these forums could be construed as blasphemy by believers?
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
But what do you do when you end up in the Dark Ages? An incurable disease, for instance. If faith is the creative force that brings things into existence, and if Jesus was right in trying to teach us to have faith and to use it, might it not be that we have not tapped the full human potential?
That is a very big if, and most people on this site will not agree with that statement unless you butress it with fact. And not the kind of "fact" that are in your head. Something that can be touched or mesured, please.
Quote from: Stevil on January 13, 2012, 07:38:50 PM
But the way he is going about it, well, I don't see that anyone, who know who he is, will be interested in paying money for his book
I'm not writing a book on faith--yet. But I will. The book I'm writing now is about how to believe in God. You probably wouldn't be interested.
Quote from: Davin on January 13, 2012, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 13, 2012, 07:00:20 PM
I wish he would stop being embarrassing with his "My ideas are nuclear fire on Atheist forums!" Maybe he doesn't feel embarrassed, but I wince inside when I see those words on his blog, and I compare his personal feelings about his presented ideas here, which I don't find compelling (and others here don't seem too fussed, either). Nuclear fire...oh, brother. It's unbearably...undignified. It's undignified to be so boastful, and even worse when basis of his boasting is unfounded or unproven. ::) :-[
He should be quite embarrassed about that, but he seems to be very happy with his lack of self awareness.
Yeah, that's why I have to be so careful not to let my posts overheat. And I think we know why.
So, in an effort to do that. I'm done in this thread. I don't have anything else to say, and everyone has had a chance to comment, and I've answered everyone I can in the best way that I can. Tristan I just can't hang with the length of your replies. I'm sorry. I don't have that much time.
It would be nice to respond to some of 'yall's posts but then they become my posts, don't they? So, take care for now. See you next year (I think in internet forum time that means next week ::) )
How do you avoid misplacing your faith?
Humans have weaknesses and I'm not talking about moral flaws, magicians know misdirection.
Behold my left hand, while my left hides the coin.
People yearn for more than the mundane and will be enlivened by a ghost story.
How do you guard yourself from being misled?
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 11:10:36 AM
Yeah, that's why I have to be so careful not to let my posts overheat. And I think we know why.
So, in an effort to do that. I'm done in this thread. I don't have anything else to say, and everyone has had a chance to comment, and I've answered everyone I can in the best way that I can. Tristan I just can't hang with the length of your replies. I'm sorry. I don't have that much time.
It would be nice to respond to some of 'yall's posts but then they become my posts, don't they? So, take care for now. See you next year (I think in internet forum time that means next week ::) )
And yet again he is out of here! I can't wait to see what crazy thing he will suggest next time...
(Oh, and the reasons your threads overheat is because of your confrontationalist personality and lack of critical insight)
Quote from: Guardian85 on January 14, 2012, 11:18:08 AM
And yet again he is out of here! I can't wait to see what crazy thing he will suggest next time...
(Oh, and the reasons your threads overheat is because of your confrontationalist personality and lack of critical insight)
Never mind Guardian, I could pretend to be an Egor if it would help. ;D
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 14, 2012, 11:38:33 AM
Never mind Guardian, I could pretend to be an Egor if it would help. ;D
I'd like to see that MagicPud, could you swap the queen's hat for some barbed wire or crown of thorns?
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 14, 2012, 02:12:18 PM
I'd like to see that MagicPud, could you swap the queen's hat for some barbed wire or crown of thorns?
I don't think I'm the most qualified, I have gaps in my bibely knowledge, I can compensate by raising above and shunning those who force my floatyness. Fnuck the razor wire crown, I will remain elegant, question me as you will.
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 10:52:10 AM
But what do you do when you end up in the Dark Ages? An incurable disease, for instance. If faith is the creative force that brings things into existence, and if Jesus was right in trying to teach us to have faith and to use it, might it not be that we have not tapped the full human potential?
As Guardian85 has said, saying 'faith is the creative force that brings things into existence' is just your opinion, and not one I'd agree with.
But what people did in the Dark Ages is live short miserable lives with an average lifespan in the thirties, that's what happens when people decide that faith in a god is the most important thing. Science, technology, logic, reason, these things have granted us a generally pain free life, and an average lifespan of almost eighty. Science and not faith is allowing us to tap the full human potential.
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-iFHbFF8mkLo%2FTVPdsOPA59I%2FAAAAAAAAAKw%2F3xqbboP6GS4%2Fs1600%2Fgoodbye.JPG&hash=c561bf38b93871b38f77e3c59a0399465ec02e43)
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 14, 2012, 02:22:58 PM
I don't think I'm the most qualified, I have gaps in my bibely knowledge, I can compensate by raising above and shunning those who force my floatyness. Fnuck the razor wire crown, I will remain elegant, question me as you will.
You're definitely the most elegant and regal pudding I've ever encountered, if ever our queen needed a body double I would hope you'd get the call from Buckingham Palace.
I don't think you need that much biblical knowledge, you're 90% of the way there with just floatyness. If you can add to that some idiosyncratic definitions of words and unerring faith in your beliefs you'd be there. Plus maybe include the words 'Jesus' and 'God' in your posts a bit more for good measure.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on January 14, 2012, 02:32:36 PM
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 14, 2012, 02:22:58 PM
I don't think I'm the most qualified, I have gaps in my bibely knowledge, I can compensate by raising above and shunning those who force my floatyness. Fnuck the razor wire crown, I will remain elegant, question me as you will.
You're definitely the most elegant and regal pudding I've ever encountered, if ever our queen needed a body double I would hope you'd get the call from Buckingham Palace.
I don't think you need that much biblical knowledge, you're 90% of the way there with just floatyness. If you can add to that some idiosyncratic definitions of words and unerring faith in your beliefs you'd be there. Plus maybe include the words 'Jesus' and 'God' in your posts a bit more for good measure.
Don't patronise me ineffectual chimp, reaching for weapons that aren't there.
You know, or you would know if only you could know the word of god.
You are wrong, open your ears and let Jesus sing the song of your wrongness to you.
Evil songs flow so easily.
Quote from: Davin on January 13, 2012, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 13, 2012, 07:00:20 PM
I wish he would stop being embarrassing with his "My ideas are nuclear fire on Atheist forums!" Maybe he doesn't feel embarrassed, but I wince inside when I see those words on his blog, and I compare his personal feelings about his presented ideas here, which I don't find compelling (and others here don't seem too fussed, either). Nuclear fire...oh, brother. It's unbearably...undignified. It's undignified to be so boastful, and even worse when basis of his boasting is unfounded or unproven. ::) :-[
He should be quite embarrassed about that, but he seems to be very happy with his lack of self awareness.
Typical Dunning-Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect), where the unskilled are unaware that they're unskilled and so suffer from illusory superiority, such as our Egor here, who thinks his ideas actually shake an atheistic worldview to it's foundations. ::).
I already suggested to Egor that he read up on it a bit, but he never replied.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on January 14, 2012, 03:27:07 PM
Quote from: Davin on January 13, 2012, 07:43:37 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 13, 2012, 07:00:20 PM
I wish he would stop being embarrassing with his "My ideas are nuclear fire on Atheist forums!" Maybe he doesn't feel embarrassed, but I wince inside when I see those words on his blog, and I compare his personal feelings about his presented ideas here, which I don't find compelling (and others here don't seem too fussed, either). Nuclear fire...oh, brother. It's unbearably...undignified. It's undignified to be so boastful, and even worse when basis of his boasting is unfounded or unproven. ::) :-[
He should be quite embarrassed about that, but he seems to be very happy with his lack of self awareness.
Typical Dunning-Kruger effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect), where the unskilled are unaware that they're unskilled and so suffer from illusory superiority, such as our Egor here, who thinks his ideas actually shake an atheistic worldview to it's foundations. ::).
I already suggested to Egor that he read up on it a bit, but he never replied.
I checked out that Wiki and this seemed like an applicable elaboration.
QuoteThe propensity to predictably misjudge one's own IQ was first noted by C. L. Downing who conducted the first cross-cultural studies on perceived 'intelligence'. His studies also evidenced that the ability to accurately estimate others' IQ was proportional to one's own IQ. This means that the lower the IQ of an individual, the less capable they are of appreciating and accurately appraising others' IQ. Therefore individuals with a lower IQ are more likely to rate themselves as having a higher IQ than those around them.
I find this topic to be fascinating partly because the local culture where I live is so focused on itself that it lacks the metaview (of other cultures) to correctly assess what they look like to others. Extreme self-serving biases and in-group validation and reinforcement.
Sort of like an equivalent.
I'm aware that it's close to impossible to correctly measure which cultures are better than others objectively, but it's mostly how they see themselves rather than their culture that I'm talking about. They do exaggerate more than a little bit ;)
Fascinating at a group level.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 14, 2012, 02:39:46 PM
Don't patronise me ineffectual chimp, reaching for weapons that aren't there.
You know, or you would know if only you could know the word of god.
You are wrong, open your ears and let Jesus sing the song of your wrongness to you.
Fuck, you make a good Egor substitute MP, has your account been hacked by a feisty Christian? I feel like my poor simian arguments have been destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah, your new persona is like nuclear fire!
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on January 14, 2012, 02:39:46 PM
You are wrong, open your ears and let Jesus sing the song of your wrongness to you.[/color]
I like that, it sounds almost romantic.
QuoteTruth is Recusant, I don't think I can debate a lot of your points, because I'm not sure I'm qualified to do so. I had an opinion that faith is a greater mental activity than reason or rationality, but I may not have supported it too well in the OP.
I have come to realize I have a lot of learning to do when it comes to faith, and until then, I probably need to keep my mouth shut.
It seems so strange seeing Egor post this kind of thing, it almost makes me wonder if someone else was posting for him.
QuoteBut I don't think that's the kind of faith I'm talking about. I'm not really talking about faith in God or Jesus Christ. I'm talking about miracle-working faith, and I think the two might be different things.
Well I couldn't leave this without a comment. Magic-making caliber of faith? Given the state of my own mind, this is a step for a person setting themselves up for frustration, disappointment, and many other negative emotions toward God. Unless they've already done it, or seen it happen consistently.
Alternatively, it could be a setup for fabricated story of faith and loss of faith.
QuoteTristan I just can't hang with the length of your replies.
:o
And here's me, anxious about my posts, going out of my way to avoid junk posting. Am I going overboard? I try to keep them to the point, and quality, but, well...shoot! He's gone away again. Don't even know if he actually read my post. I wonder if he thinks that there has been a barrage of overly lengthy comments posted in his somewhat disappointing blog, of late? :looks around paranoid:
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 14, 2012, 07:39:55 PM
And here's me, anxious about my posts, going out of my way to avoid junk posting. Am I going overboard? I try to keep them to the point, and quality, but, well...shoot! He's gone away again. Don't even know if he actually read my post. I wonder if he thinks that there has been a barrage of overly lengthy comments posted in his somewhat disappointing blog, of late? :looks around paranoid:
There, there. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg519.imageshack.us%2Fimg519%2F7781%2Fstrokeiz3.gif&hash=07eb352720b174f945c44152b71203755191f33b) We all take our chances with our posting styles. I try to make mine as short as possible, which means I run the risk of saying too little and not making my point at all. What are you gonna do? Just express yourself and let the chips fall where they may.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 14, 2012, 07:55:10 PM
Quote from: Tristan Jay on January 14, 2012, 07:39:55 PM
And here's me, anxious about my posts, going out of my way to avoid junk posting. Am I going overboard? I try to keep them to the point, and quality, but, well...shoot! He's gone away again. Don't even know if he actually read my post. I wonder if he thinks that there has been a barrage of overly lengthy comments posted in his somewhat disappointing blog, of late? :looks around paranoid:
There, there. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg519.imageshack.us%2Fimg519%2F7781%2Fstrokeiz3.gif&hash=07eb352720b174f945c44152b71203755191f33b) We all take our chances with our posting styles. I try to make mine as short as possible, which means I run the risk of saying too little and not making my point at all. What are you gonna do? Just express yourself and let the chips fall where they may.
Thanks, BooksCatsEct. Your very username is a comfort; books and cats...contemplating these things brings a measure of serenity.
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 10:34:26 AM
Truth is Recusant, I don't think I can debate a lot of your points, because I'm not sure I'm qualified to do so. I had an opinion that faith is a greater mental activity than reason or rationality, but I may not have supported it too well in the OP.
I have come to realize I have a lot of learning to do when it comes to faith, and until then, I probably need to keep my mouth shut.
I'm glad that you are being more honest with yourself.
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 10:34:26 AM
Truth is Recusant, I don't think I can debate a lot of your points, because I'm not sure I'm qualified to do so.
Recusant is a very wise and ancient being.
Exactly how old, nobody knows, maybe as old as time itself.
But his posts are always well considered, knowledgeable and full of experienced wisdom.
Anyone would be wise to accept the wisdom generously offered by Recusant.
I am just surprised that Egor possesses the self-insight to know his limitations on this subject...
That is a new side of him.
Oh my. True, it's been a long time since I was a youngster, and I've learned a thing or two, but I'm just as capable of being a silly git as the next fellow. Thank you,
Stevil; you flatter me. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historum.com%2Fimages%2Ficons%2Ficon11.gif&hash=77167c1b50b7caa1429a7320fa2663b50bcd3125)
* * *
I should come as no surprise that I can't help being a little dubious about the tack taken by you,
Egor, in your reply to me. Having discussed various things with you when you were a member here before, I recognized the same overbearing attitude in your posts (up till now) since you've returned. However, I understand that you're now trying to present a less volatile persona, so I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt.
Quote from: Egor on January 14, 2012, 11:02:29 AM
I'm an American. I have two guns. Imagine that? And yet, I've never shot anyone. How can that be? Oh yeah, I'm a Christian and I value other people as creations of God our Father!
Really? That's why you don't shoot people? It has nothing to do with eliminating their contribution to society or ruining the lives of family members? It just begs the question of what you would do if you found out we weren't creations of 'god our father'. I'm scared to think.
My stepfather has a dozen or so firearms, three (Or four) of which are handguns. His body count? None. His religion? None.
How does one explain that, I wonder..?
My dad had a hand gun he took with him when he traveled (he was a salesman [insert joke here] and some of his customers were in sketchy neighborhoods) and, just to make sure we didn't act stupid and shoot ourselves playing with it, he taught my brother and I to use it. I'm fairly certain none of us ever shot anybody and our religious beliefs are all over the place. Dad could probably have been called a lax agnostic, my brother a semi-traditional Xtian and me an atheist.
The main point -- would we shoot anyone? -- absolutely yes, given what we considered a good reason. I don't think my Dad or brother would shoot anyone for any reason other than protecting their kids, and I'd do it to protect my own life or someone elses if I thought we were about to lose those lives otherwise. Killing or even shooting at someone without a good reason tho, I can't even imagine doing that. When I try to imagine it, I find myself transfering my own enjoyment of being alive and horror of pain and/or violent death onto them and it's just literally unthinkable.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 18, 2012, 05:56:13 PM
Killing or even shooting at someone without a good reason tho, I can't even imagine doing that. When I try to imagine it, I find myself transfering my own enjoyment of being alive and horror of pain and/or violent death onto them and it's just literally unthinkable.
You figured all this out without accepting jesus christ as your lord and savior?
HEATHEN!!
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:19:23 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 18, 2012, 05:56:13 PM
Killing or even shooting at someone without a good reason tho, I can't even imagine doing that. When I try to imagine it, I find myself transfering my own enjoyment of being alive and horror of pain and/or violent death onto them and it's just literally unthinkable.
You figured all this out without accepting jesus christ as your lord and savior?
HEATHEN!!
Thinking for yourself is against God's ultimate plan. >D
Quote from: Heisenberg on January 18, 2012, 07:19:23 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on January 18, 2012, 05:56:13 PM
Killing or even shooting at someone without a good reason tho, I can't even imagine doing that. When I try to imagine it, I find myself transfering my own enjoyment of being alive and horror of pain and/or violent death onto them and it's just literally unthinkable.
You figured all this out without accepting jesus christ as your lord and savior?
HEATHEN!!
In a word. Even if I could get beyond the abstract fellow feeling that makes me automatically abide by the golden rule, there'd be the consequences of the action to deal with which would probably be more than I'd want to handle. Angry friends and relatives of the victim, the angry victim if I didn't manage to kill him, the paperwork the police would insist on, the possible jail time. There are just so many reasons unconnected to belief in a god not to screw other people over.
I was a designated marksman (sniper) in the military. As such I posess the ability to cap mine enemies from very great distance with little effort or risk. I am also an amoral, self centered, evil atheist (according to christians).
Yet I have never taken a shot at someone, despite the fact that there are people I despise and think the world would be better without.
I have means, often motive, and opportunities a plenty yet I do not kill. Strange. According to xtian thinking I should be a mass murderer. ;D
You were a sniper? Sexy~! :)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
You were a sniper? Sexy~! :)
There more I get to know about life, the more I realise that I will never be able to understand women.
Quote from: Stevil on January 18, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
You were a sniper? Sexy~! :)
There more I get to know about life, the more I realise that I will never be able to understand women.
Right? I don't even totally get it, and I am one. I HATE guns and am an old married woman besides, but when Guardian mentioned that he was a sniper I couldn't help but wiggle my eyebrows a little. It's beyond explanation.
Quote from: Stevil on January 18, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
You were a sniper? Sexy~! :)
There more I get to know about life, the more I realise that I will never be able to understand women.
I'm a big fan of metal gear solid. That's all you need to know about me.
(and every woman is different afterall. >_> )
Quote from: Ali on January 18, 2012, 09:54:18 PM
Quote from: Stevil on January 18, 2012, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 18, 2012, 09:09:33 PM
You were a sniper? Sexy~! :)
There more I get to know about life, the more I realise that I will never be able to understand women.
Right? I don't even totally get it, and I am one. I HATE guns and am an old married woman besides, but when Guardian mentioned that he was a sniper I couldn't help but wiggle my eyebrows a little. It's beyond explanation.
Ladies like the dangerous men...
I <3 nerds.
You're just cool, Guardian . :)
Quote from: Sweetdeath on January 19, 2012, 12:20:20 AM
I <3 nerds.
You're just cool, Guardian . :)
I'm glad some women acnowledge that.
P.S. I'm a pretty big nerd, too.
I think you're right Guardian. I already picture you as a ninja, and then you add the sniper thing.....strokes chin thoughtfully, stares off to the middle distance.....
Quote from: Ali on January 19, 2012, 12:40:45 AM
I think you're right Guardian. I already picture you as a ninja, and then you add the sniper thing.....strokes chin thoughtfully, stares off to the middle distance.....
Haha, that is a great image. :)
not that I care that this thread was derailed...but can you continue the fun back and forth in another thread so egor's thread will die? I just don't like seeing it pop up as a new topic lol
Sorry, boss...
Quote from: Egor on January 11, 2012, 07:56:12 PM
It is one thing to believe that which is right in front of you.
the king is naked
Quote from: Egor
normal human reasoning based on direct observations connected with previous experience or the acquired knowledge of what has happened in the past.
it suffices hereabouts but you do go on
Quote from: Egor
Faith on the other hand requires will..
Volition, or will if you like, depends on the knowledge of your choices. You think and feel to derive your choices. you dont need to believe;have faith in your choices unless you choose to believe the absurd
Quote from: Egor
When we choose to believe, no matter what is presented to us, we are not only using our rational powers (because we reason that we are not being rational) but we also incorporate our will so that the entire process is more demanding than mere reasoning. It's actually something that is very difficult to do...
not to schizophrenics. it is diffucult to you because you negate reasoning
Quote from: Egor
If one is sick, and they choose to believe they have been healed even when they are still in pain or the symptoms persist,....
they are in denial
Quote from: Egor
if one simply chooses to have confidence in a situation even though there is only a 50/50 chance they will prevail, ,....
that is an optimist, an absurd tempestuous and orgasmic universe pops up success alongside failure
Quote from: EgorI'm not talking about delusions here. A deluded person is still on the level of reasoning because they are sure their delusion is true.That's not faith. Such a person is using rational thinking when they go swimming in the lake. They're wrong, of course, but they think they're right; so, that's not faith.,....
you are defining deluded faullty reasoning. There are a variaty of faulty reasonings schizoid, paranoid, depressive, all too common. furthermore it is equated to faith, blind faith when you expect anything more than a simple chance positive outcome, when you demand higher purpose and meaning authorship, when you impose the illusionary Agent to comfort your inadequecy in standing your ground emotional and compus mentus
Quote from: Egor
Because faith uses rationality as its stepping stone and then goes further through the use of will, it is obviously a greater use of human mental capabilities.
and then jumps blindly into the unknown. that's why its called blind faith. it abandoned the last stone of rationality and pirouettes on fantasy
yoga and meditation killed you christians, but you didnt die because you commited philosophical
suicide and linger on pestering like smelly zombies