What if there were no concept of a fiery and eternal Hell in the Islamic and Christian Religions? Do you think these religions would number in the Billions as they do now, or be closer to the Jewish population of about 15 Million?
Could Christianity and Islam survive in any meaningful form without the concept of Hell?
My feeling is they wouldn't be as successful, the Hindus have one or many as well.
Even some Buddhists seem to require one.
An interesting question. I think that the control and fear inducing characterisitc of religions that preach fire and brimstone does play a huge part in why it's so popular. On the other hand, heaven is an excellent incentive for animals who are aware that they will die.
Expanding a bit, my guess is if there was no such thing as heaven or hell in any religion, then some of the religious, under certain stressful circumstances, would still have existential angst. There has to be an eternal "point" to it all for some.
I see hell as the spiritual penalty clause woven into the religious contract. Believe in god and you will be deliriously happy in heaven forever is an attractive promise but it's a more effective sales pitch if there's a penalty, especially a stiff one. Now you can choose between eternal happiness or eternal torment. Obviously everyone's gonna choose to be happy. Hell helps to focus people's choice and sell heaven and god.
Take hell out of the equation and I think religion would still sell pretty well based on the promise of eternal life and happiness but it's still best to give the people something really scary to help steer them toward that decision anyway.
It's just good business strategy.
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on December 15, 2011, 03:50:16 AM
What if there were no concept of a fiery and eternal Hell in the Islamic and Christian Religions? Do you think these religions would number in the Billions as they do now, or be closer to the Jewish population of about 15 Million?
Could Christianity and Islam survive in any meaningful form without the concept of Hell?
Jesus is pretty much the one who started all the talk about hell, so I think his word on the subject matters. It's not that the Christian religion used the concept of hell; it's that Jesus is very clear on the subject of it. And remember there was no Christian Church or even the idea of one at the time of Jesus Christ or for at least 20 or 30 years after his resurrection.
So, why blame the Church. Theyre just telling it like it is and always has been from the very originator of the faith. Your argument is with Jesus Christ.
Well~~ Jesus is dead, isn't he?
In general I agree with the idea that both concepts of heaven/hell are used as a behavior tool. It's very easy to control people through fear. I find it so laughable anyone passed the age of 6 would believe in Hell.
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on December 15, 2011, 03:50:16 AM
Jesus is pretty much the one who started all the talk about hell, so I think his word on the subject matters.
Is Jesus gonna' be making any public appearances soon where I can ask - like a sermon, speech or debate? (Hey...is Jesus sparky enough to risk debating Christopher Hitchens in public?!)
Or...Is there a 1-800 Number I can call to ask? Is there a post Office Address I can mail? E-mail?
Quote from: Happy_Is_Good on December 15, 2011, 03:50:16 AM
It's not that the Christian religion used the concept of hell; it's that Jesus is very clear on the subject of it. And remember there was no Christian Church or even the idea of one at the time of Jesus Christ or for at least 20 or 30 years after his resurrection.
What...the Christian Church - any Christian Church - never used the concept of Hell...much less fire and brimstone? Isn't this a bit disingenuous on your part?
Quote from: Egor on December 15, 2011, 06:00:04 AMSo, why blame the Church. They're just telling it like it is and always has been from the very originator of the faith. Your argument is with Jesus Christ.
Well...I never blamed the "Church" of anything - you stuck that in there on your own volition. Furthermore, if you think I got an argument with "Jesus", then please tell me where to find him - otherwise I got to assume he's a myth.
Well to begin with the bible is pretty obscure about hell, the only references I remember describing it as a place of "gnashing of teeth" and "lake of fire", both of which I think are found in the NT. Besides that, it is sometimes reffered to as "Hades" and I think once as "Tartarus", which is the lowest level of Hades. Just check the greek mythology for more information ;) On the other hand, the Jewish scriptures speak about "Sheol", which was a lot more like Hades, wihout the fun little activites. It was just a place of darkness where everyone went, no matter what one did in life, and where one was "removed from the light of God", and accorading to wiki when the hebrew scriptures were translated to greek, they used the word "Hades" instead....
However, our current vivid image of hell with it's purgatories and special places for defined punishments are mostly based on a certain poem collection called "Dante's Hell", which the Catholic chruch jumped on and embraced as doctirine and which the churches that sperated from it inherited to some extent.
So in other words, Christianity is not different from most other religions that take something old from other religions, and add to it or twist it so that it fits their doctrines. Take the mentioning of "Hades" as an example. It was a consept that was well known around the Mediterenian and most likely across the Roman Empire, so it was easy to use to rell people what they had in mind, and it's easier to understand why people were readdy to believe in a "saviour" that would spare them from eternal boredom.
Just believe... :D
Quote from: history_geek on December 15, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
Well to begin with the bible is pretty obscure about hell...
Yeah, but not about the eternal burning and suffering part - the Bible is quite clear that Hell is about eternal burning and suffering - and this is to be found in lots of places in the New testament.
It is strange that they consider Satan and Hell to be bad, and they hold hate for them.
If you think about the theory then you could only conclude that Satan and Hell are crucial to god's plan. God decides who gets tortured for eternity, god wants people to prove their worthiness by rejecting evil. Without Satan god would be impotent and meaningless. Christians ought to praise Satan almost on equal par with their god.
Quote from: history_geek on December 15, 2011, 07:16:39 AM
Well to begin with the bible is pretty obscure about hell, the only references I remember describing it as a place of "gnashing of teeth" and "lake of fire", both of which I think are found in the NT. Besides that, it is sometimes reffered to as "Hades" and I think once as "Tartarus", which is the lowest level of Hades. Just check the greek mythology for more information ;) On the other hand, the Jewish scriptures speak about "Sheol", which was a lot more like Hades, wihout the fun little activites. It was just a place of darkness where everyone went, no matter what one did in life, and where one was "removed from the light of God", and accorading to wiki when the hebrew scriptures were translated to greek, they used the word "Hades" instead....
Yeah, that's the way I understood it too. Jesus taught that he was going to immanently return (within a lifetime) and destroy the Earth with fire, he didn't say that much about heaven and hell.
It was certainly a Christian doctrine long before Dante though. Justin Martyr was one of the most prominent early Christian writers (mid 2nd century), and there's nothing he liked more than reminding the Greeks and Romans that they'd all burn in hell unless they became Christian. Stuff like 'the unjust and intemperate shall be punished in eternal fire, but that the virtuous and those who lived like Christ shall dwell with God in a state that is free from suffering' (the opening from his second apology to the Romans). No wonder the early Christians were often disliked, as they went around telling everyone else their gods weren't real and they were going to burn in hell!
I think the carrot and the stick approach of heaven and hell has definitely worked for Christianity and Islam, if you look at Islam it's far worse than Christianity. The Qur'an has very little else in it other than retelling Jewish myths while constantly repeating the mantra that heavenly bliss awaits believers, while eternal torture and flames awaits unbelievers *yawn*
Quote from: xSilverPhinxAn interesting question. I think that the control and fear inducing characterisitc of religions that preach fire and brimstone does play a huge part in why it's so popular.
Before the Reformation, English churches had paintings on every wall surface. They were painted over by the Puritans, but in many places some have been revealed. Quite a lot of these pictures are of sinners burning in hell or being dragged away by fearsome devils. The reason is obvious.
In Catholic and Orthodox churches today you don't see that - I've often wondered why.
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
It is strange that they consider Satan and Hell to be bad, and they hold hate for them.
If you think about the theory then you could only conclude that Satan and Hell are crucial to god's plan. God decides who gets tortured for eternity, god wants people to prove their worthiness by rejecting evil. Without Satan god would be impotent and meaningless. Christians ought to praise Satan almost on equal par with their god.
Reminds me of a Brazilian poet (affectionately called "Hell's Mouth" which was the pseudonym he signed some of his poems with) who said that god exists to pardon sins so that was reason enough to keep on sinning! :D
He of course was much more elaborate...
Quote from: OldGit on December 15, 2011, 12:07:12 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinxAn interesting question. I think that the control and fear inducing characterisitc of religions that preach fire and brimstone does play a huge part in why it's so popular.
Before the Reformation, English churches had paintings on every wall surface. They were painted over by the Puritans, but in many places some have been revealed. Quite a lot of these pictures are of sinners burning in hell or being dragged away by fearsome devils. The reason is obvious.
In Catholic and Orthodox churches today you don't see that - I've often wondered why.
Counter Reformation, perhaps? They are a business, after all...don't want to scare away some potential clients when better religious ideas are popping up all over the marketplace.
Maybe fear is not so good for popularity in a oligarchy after all.
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
It is strange that they consider Satan and Hell to be bad, and they hold hate for them.
If you think about the theory then you could only conclude that Satan and Hell are crucial to god's plan. God decides who gets tortured for eternity, god wants people to prove their worthiness by rejecting evil. Without Satan god would be impotent and meaningless. Christians ought to praise Satan almost on equal par with their god.
I hought about this a lot growing up. The whole "if god created Lucifer and hell, then he is ok with letting bad things happen."
Either way, it's annoying to think about because it's such a paradox and contraddiction.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 15, 2011, 02:06:19 PM
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
It is strange that they consider Satan and Hell to be bad, and they hold hate for them.
If you think about the theory then you could only conclude that Satan and Hell are crucial to god's plan. God decides who gets tortured for eternity, god wants people to prove their worthiness by rejecting evil. Without Satan god would be impotent and meaningless. Christians ought to praise Satan almost on equal par with their god.
I hought about this a lot growing up. The whole "if god created Lucifer and hell, then he is ok with letting bad things happen."
Either way, it's annoying to think about because it's such a paradox and contraddiction.
You forget the 11th Commandment:
Thou shalt not point out contradictions.Moses removed that bit immediately and said unto the lord:
"What contradictions?"
Quote from: Egor on December 15, 2011, 06:00:04 AM
Jesus is pretty much the one who started all the talk about hell, so I think his word on the subject matters. It's not that the Christian religion used the concept of hell; it's that Jesus is very clear on the subject of it. And remember there was no Christian Church or even the idea of one at the time of Jesus Christ or for at least 20 or 30 years after his resurrection.
So, why blame the Church. They're just telling it like it is and always has been from the very originator of the faith. Your argument is with Jesus Christ.
Actually, if you look at Jesus' teachings on the subject carefully, an argument can be made that the most he was talking about was annihilation, not eternal torment.
With respect to whether Christianity could exist without hell, it probably wouldn't be as popular, but it would exist in greater numbers than Judaism. Jesus attracts people to him, much more than Moses. I no longer accept the idea of eternal torment, so it would have no effect on my faith if it didn't exist.
If your social control system is a theocratic one then you need a system of theocratic positive and negative sanctions in order to get the great unwashed shambling herd to do what you want. Ergo, if you're a good boy you get to sit next to Jeebus and think pure thoughts. If you're a bad boy then you go to hell and get to jam with Hendrix, Keith Moon and Kurt Cobain. No prizes for guessing where this bass-player wants to go. 8)
I think people generally like the idea of heaven and that attracts them to any heaven-based religion.
I think people generally are afraid of any really scary thing they are taught exists from childhood; so hell drives them to stay with religion through phases of light doubt.
Those Chrsitians that view hell as a separation from god or ending of the spirit are surprisingly rare even though it is the most charitable interpretation of hell in the bible if one is trying to reconcile hell with a loving God.
So, perhaps there is also the level that a lot of humans generally like the idea of the bad guy getting his in the end so they are hesitant to give up on the idea of an eternal burning hell even if they are scared of it themselves.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on December 15, 2011, 02:14:54 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 15, 2011, 02:06:19 PM
Quote from: Stevil on December 15, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
It is strange that they consider Satan and Hell to be bad, and they hold hate for them.
If you think about the theory then you could only conclude that Satan and Hell are crucial to god's plan. God decides who gets tortured for eternity, god wants people to prove their worthiness by rejecting evil. Without Satan god would be impotent and meaningless. Christians ought to praise Satan almost on equal par with their god.
I hought about this a lot growing up. The whole "if god created Lucifer and hell, then he is ok with letting bad things happen."
Either way, it's annoying to think about because it's such a paradox and contraddiction.
You forget the 11th Commandment:
Thou shalt not point out contradictions.
Moses removed that bit immediately and said unto the lord:
"What contradictions?"
XD LOL!!!
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub
Actually, if you look at Jesus' teachings on the subject carefully, an argument can be made that the most he was talking about was annihilation, not eternal torment.
What did Jesus say about Hell?
"fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
"everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41
"eternal damnation" Mark 3:29
"hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
"damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
"damnation of hell" Matt 23:33
"resurrection of damnation" ohn 5:29
"furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50
"the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45
"the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48
"wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50
"weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
"torments" Luke 16:23
"tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24
"place of torment" Luke 16:28
"outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13
"everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46
Hmmm...doesn't say anything about annihilation.
QuoteI no longer accept the idea of eternal torment, so it would have no effect on my faith if it didn't exist.
Notice the last item above?
Jesus needs to unclentch :<
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 16, 2011, 04:13:10 AM
Jesus needs to unclentch :<
Ohhhh...Jesus has no say in the matter. Hasn't been heard from in years. It's those self-righteous twits that believe in and preach the hellfire and everlasting torment that need to unclench.
Outer darkness, yes? With presumably light-generating flames, no..?
So is it dark there or not?! If it is, I likes it more and more. Nothing better than a HUGE TV with a perfect sound system in an absolutely dark room ;D
Quote from: Asmodean on December 17, 2011, 01:31:20 PM
Outer darkness, yes? With presumably light-generating flames, no..?
So is it dark there or not?! If it is, I likes it more and more. Nothing better than a HUGE TV with a perfect sound system in an absolutely dark room ;D
Except sometimes you knock over your glass.
They should make glow in the dark glasses.
Why don't inventor people think of these things?
It's not hard, it's dark, spilt drink, make a glowing glass, sheesh, it's not genetically modified muesli science.
Quote from: Gawen on December 17, 2011, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 16, 2011, 04:13:10 AM
Jesus needs to unclentch :<
Ohhhh...Jesus has no say in the matter. Hasn't been heard from in years. It's those self-righteous twits that believe in and preach the hellfire and everlasting torment that need to unclench.
They wonder why I think they're all lunatics.
QuoteWhat if there were no Hell?
They'd probably have to change some song titles.
Highway to ???
Run Like ???
Bat Out Of ???
It's not many is it.
I did do a search, there were heaps of heaven songs.
Some other place would have to lack the fury of a woman scorned.
There would have to be an alternative opposite for high water.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 17, 2011, 02:44:34 PM
QuoteWhat if there were no Hell?
They'd probably have to change some song titles.
Highway to ???
Run Like ???
Bat Out Of ???
It's not many is it.
I did do a search, there were heaps of heaven songs.
Some other place would have to lack the fury of a woman scorned.
There would have to be an alternative opposite for high water.
LOL!!
I love "Bat out of that firey place that isn't Arizona." XD great song.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 17, 2011, 02:44:34 PM
QuoteWhat if there were no Hell?
They'd probably have to change some song titles.
Highway to ???
Run Like ???
Bat Out Of ???
It's not many is it.
I did do a search, there were heaps of heaven songs.
Some other place would have to lack the fury of a woman scorned.
There would have to be an alternative opposite for high water.
Gehenna...fury of a woman scorned.
The rest are songs:
Highway to Perdition
Bat out of Sheol
Run like Hades
It must be Purgatory
Lake of fire's Bells
Heaven and Tartarus
Barathrum On Wheels
Cowboys From Orcus
Underworld Cat
Saints in Annwfn
Hotter Than Pit of Sorrows
What The Satan's Lair Is This?
Better to Reign in Jahannam
Heck Is For Children
Ego Tripping At The Gates Of The Inferno
Private mom-in-law
Raise a Little Niflehiem
Heaven, Pit of Eternal Damnation, or Houston
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 17, 2011, 01:50:31 PM
They should make glow in the dark glasses.
They do. I have a few.
They also make pretty much everything that will glow in blacklight
Quote from: Gawen on December 17, 2011, 01:13:26 PM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 16, 2011, 04:13:10 AM
Jesus needs to unclentch :<
Ohhhh...Jesus has no say in the matter. Hasn't been heard from in years. It's those self-righteous twits that believe in and preach the hellfire and everlasting torment that need to unclench.
Ever noticed the manic relish with which they describe hell for us sinners. They WANT that shit. What happened to forgiveness?
Quote from: squidfetish on December 18, 2011, 10:12:53 AM
Ever noticed the manic relish with which they describe hell for us sinners. They WANT that shit. What happened to forgiveness?
Ye but understand it from their side.
They have to stop coveting their neighbours ass.
They aren't supposed to have extra or premarital sex, and if they do they fret about it.
No contraceptives for some, maybe a dozen bothersome children,
possibly a body or wife with a body ruined by a dozen pregnancies.
Have to get up early every Sunday, and pay for the privilege.
I could go on but that's enough, it's plainly obvious they are suffering in this life,
I don't begrudge them a little pleasure imagining me roasting in the next.
Geez, they have to worry about themselves possibly roasting too, they know they aren't sticking to the rules.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 18, 2011, 10:40:15 AM
They have to stop coveting their neighbours ass.
I can't believe I never saw the double entendre in that before. :-[
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 18, 2011, 10:40:15 AM
I could go on but that's enough, it's plainly obvious they are suffering in this life,
I don't begrudge them a little pleasure imagining me roasting in the next.
Geez, they have to worry about themselves possibly roasting too, they know they aren't sticking to the rules.
Hehehe I never thought of it quite like that. :)
Oh, Pudding. xD
I think the fear of hell keeps the majority of christians from questioning there beliefs. Therefore if the concept of hell didn't exist, I think these religions would sustain a huge blow.
Quote from: unholy1971 on December 18, 2011, 07:11:29 PM
I think the fear of hell keeps the majority of christians from questioning there beliefs. Therefore if the concept of hell didn't exist, I think these religions would sustain a huge blow.
Yeah, true enough.
The ninth Satanic statement says:
"Satan has been the best friend the Church has ever had, as He has kept it in business all these years."
Can't argue with that...
Aw , if Lucifer were real, i'd be his friend. :D