Interesting study:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/12/07/study-some-atheists-with-children-attend-with-religious-services/?iref=allsearch&hpt=hp_t2
It makes sense, I plan to do the same with my future children...the going to various places of worship approach; not the going to the same one every sunday approach. But I also don't have a religious spouse to compel me to take the kids to a single church as did some of the scientists in the study; if my spouse were religious and I had kids I'd probably tag along to church with them (I'm also assuming that if my spouse were religious that it would be a very liberal church that wouldn't annoy me).
Sounds cruel and unnatural.
What the hell is the point? Unless you want to show your kids how assinine church really is. *eyeroll*
They can't actually make their own mind up about religion unless they are exposed to it in some way.
As for why some of the scientists would go for reasons unrelated to educating their children; don't have a clue why there unless they are just seeking out community and have no better local option.
Quote"This was so surprising to us just because of all of the public discussion about the ways in which scientists are very against religions people," said Elaine Howard Ecklund, a sociologist at Rice. "When in fact, those we might most expect to be against religious people are sitting alongside them."
Makes me wonder just where all this "public discussion" has been. I think the religious are fanning their own flames again and not realizing it.
I've been to church a few times. Mostly because I had never been to one and I was curious. Obviously it was not my cup of tea.
Quote from: Whitney on December 07, 2011, 06:52:59 PM
They can't actually make their own mind up about religion unless they are exposed to it in some way.
As for why some of the scientists would go for reasons unrelated to educating their children; don't have a clue why there unless they are just seeking out community and have no better local option.
I suppose it is better to show them the insanity, but that's what youtube is for. Just look up Jesus camp, and it says it all.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 07, 2011, 10:08:03 PM
Quote from: Whitney on December 07, 2011, 06:52:59 PM
They can't actually make their own mind up about religion unless they are exposed to it in some way.
As for why some of the scientists would go for reasons unrelated to educating their children; don't have a clue why there unless they are just seeking out community and have no better local option.
I suppose it is better to show them the insanity, but that's what youtube is for. Just look up Jesus camp, and it says it all.
I think the approach the scientists are taking is that of opening horizons, not closing them by taking their children to church.
Though I am slightly surprised at the article. I didn't think that people could sit through regular services if unless they were apatheists (I sat through a few).
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 07, 2011, 10:08:03 PM
Quote from: Whitney on December 07, 2011, 06:52:59 PM
They can't actually make their own mind up about religion unless they are exposed to it in some way.
As for why some of the scientists would go for reasons unrelated to educating their children; don't have a clue why there unless they are just seeking out community and have no better local option.
I suppose it is better to show them the insanity, but that's what youtube is for. Just look up Jesus camp, and it says it all.
Well, most churches aren't that crazy....I'd rather give kids a well rounded view of religion then just show them all the crazy stuff as if that is all there is to it.
I don't think it's a horrible thing to expose children to different beliefs, but I can't say that I'll really want to take our little Fella to church unless he specifically asks, or shows some curiosity.
I hated going to church when I was a kid and was dragged there every Sunday against my will. I really don't want to do the same thing to my little guy unless he shows an interest himself. Discuss religion - yes. Attend religious services - avoid if at all possible.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 08, 2011, 12:07:24 PM
I don't think it's a horrible thing to expose children to different beliefs, but I can't say that I'll really want to take our little Fella to church unless he specifically asks, or shows some curiosity.
I hated going to church when I was a kid and was dragged there every Sunday against my will. I really don't want to do the same thing to my little guy unless he shows an interest himself. Discuss religion - yes. Attend religious services - avoid if at all possible.
Just wondering...lets say your child, for who knows what reason, decides he has an interest in church/religion. How much of this are you REALLY willing to support. Is there a point at which you would cut his interest to keep him from becoming an delusioned, brain-washed idiot?
I would indeed try to dissuade my child from becoming "a delusioned, brain-washed idiot". Much would depend on what church they wanted to associate with.
I would give my child a history lesson about the horrors of religion and all tje innocent victims of it.
It's not like it's over. Look at Syria... All of the middle east.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 08, 2011, 06:04:52 PM
...lets say your child, for who knows what reason, decides he has an interest in church/religion. How much of this are you REALLY willing to support. Is there a point at which you would cut his interest to keep him from becoming an delusioned, brain-washed idiot?
Adding my own 2 cents, I agree with those who said it would depend on the church and the kid expressing an interest. With some churches, it would be like the kid wanting to join the American Nazi Party -- not on my watch. Past 18 it's an individual decision but before that I wouldn't collude with it and I'd make it very clear why.
On the other hand, if the church was merely delusional but not insane or dangerous I'd make my opinion of the supernatural clear but wouldn't stand in the way of attending services or other church activities. I enjoyed going to church myself as a kid and don't see that much harm in it as long as the church itself isn't poisonous.
It's simple reality that most people have religious urges and needs (however difficult that is for the few of us who don't suffer from it to understand) and I'd figure that even with my influence a kid of mine would still be more likely to be religious than not. A little flexibility from me would not be too much to ask.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on December 08, 2011, 08:54:57 PM
I would give my child a history lesson about the horrors of religion and all tje innocent victims of it.
It's not like it's over. Look at Syria... All of the middle east.
While I know where this reply will be taken (as I've been here long enough to know the answer(s) on the contrary), I will say it anyway. Humans are imperfect and while most of us brain-washed people are also among the imperfect, we believe and hold that God's perfect will WILL make things right in his time. Our imperfect expression of religion does not necessarily portray God's "religion" if he actually set ONE up. We may not understand everything, but who's to say our 10% brain use CAN understand all things. Much like a comment from @Whitney in another thread about the earth hanging on nothing, she mentioned that it may not be wrong to think of the earth as hanging on nothing if you can't see any strings attached and don't understand gravity.
Another question: If you give your child a history lesson that plainly shows the horrors of religion and you include proof, video, books, historical evidence, archaeology...and he still decides that religion is more interesting and/or even turns away, if you will, from your guidance, is it possible and 2- is he stupid?
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 08, 2011, 06:04:52 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 08, 2011, 12:07:24 PM
I don't think it's a horrible thing to expose children to different beliefs, but I can't say that I'll really want to take our little Fella to church unless he specifically asks, or shows some curiosity.
I hated going to church when I was a kid and was dragged there every Sunday against my will. I really don't want to do the same thing to my little guy unless he shows an interest himself. Discuss religion - yes. Attend religious services - avoid if at all possible.
Just wondering...lets say your child, for who knows what reason, decides he has an interest in church/religion. How much of this are you REALLY willing to support. Is there a point at which you would cut his interest to keep him from becoming an delusioned, brain-washed idiot?
I think it'd depend on how old he is. If he decides at 11 that he wants to become a priest, I'd probably be less than enthused about the idea and I can't say that I'd be "supportive" about pushing him towards that goal. But, If he's 18 and he decides that he wants to be a priest? Well then, I'm going to suck it up and support him in what makes him happy. As long as he isn't shooting heroin into his eyeballs and can function as a member of society, he can believe whatever he wants to believe once he reaches a certain age.
But, considering that both of his parents are atheist, I think the likelihood of him "finding" a strong religious calling on his own as a child is probably going to be pretty unlikely.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 08, 2011, 11:02:55 PMWe may not understand everything, but who's to say our 10% brain use CAN understand all things.
Hasn't that 10% thing been discredited, relegated to B grade Hollywood productions?
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on December 09, 2011, 02:10:41 AM
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 08, 2011, 11:02:55 PMWe may not understand everything, but who's to say our 10% brain use CAN understand all things.
Hasn't that 10% thing been discredited, relegated to B grade Hollywood productions?
I think so. That was a 50s misconception of how the mind worked.
Well lucky for me, I plan not to have chidren. :)
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 08, 2011, 06:04:52 PMJust wondering...lets say your child, for who knows what reason, decides he has an interest in church/religion. How much of this are you REALLY willing to support.
I would support none of it, I would only support the things that I currently support.
Quote from: AnimatedDirtIs there a point at which you would cut his interest to keep him from becoming an delusioned, brain-washed idiot?
I would interfere if I thought actual brainwashing was going on, however if the child is doing so under his/her own volition, then I would not.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 09, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
I think it'd depend on how old he is. If he decides at 11 that he wants to become a priest, I'd probably be less than enthused about the idea and I can't say that I'd be "supportive" about pushing him towards that goal. But, If he's 18 and he decides that he wants to be a priest? Well then, I'm going to suck it up and support him in what makes him happy. As long as he isn't shooting heroin into his eyeballs and can function as a member of society, he can believe whatever he wants to believe once he reaches a certain age.
I just said he turned away from your guidance...not that he wanted into the priesthood. :) I think this answer is a healthy answer for a parent no matter which side of this discussion.
Quote from: DeterminedJulietBut, considering that both of his parents are atheist, I think the likelihood of him "finding" a strong religious calling on his own as a child is probably going to be pretty unlikely.
Is this due to simple upbringing or because the parent pounded it into their head? I think a higher percentage of kids follow what their parents DO rather than what their parents SAY.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 09, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
But, considering that both of his parents are atheist, I think the likelihood of him "finding" a strong religious calling on his own as a child is probably going to be pretty unlikely.
I don't know, kids have a way of going off in their own directions. Goodness knows I wasn't raised by atheists, and yet here I am. What's-her-name, that caustic woman who started American Atheists, had a son that turned out religious -- in fact, I think he's a preacher now. I don't think it'd be any more unlikely for an atheist's kid to be religious than a Democrat's kid to be Republican, and vice versa.
This is sadly true. How many atheists come from religious upbringings?
My parents never made me go to church, but my dad constantly annoys me with his god worship, so I made my own choices as an adult, based on logic.
Quote from: AnimatedDirt on December 09, 2011, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJulietBut, considering that both of his parents are atheist, I think the likelihood of him "finding" a strong religious calling on his own as a child is probably going to be pretty unlikely.
Is this due to simple upbringing or because the parent pounded it into their head? I think a higher percentage of kids follow what their parents DO rather than what their parents SAY.
Both my husband and myself are pretty non-vocal atheists in RL. I'm sure there are many people who are close to us who aren't even aware of our "beliefs", or lack thereof. If kids follow mostly what their parents do, then wee man will be a critical thinker, but not necessarily a "preachy" sort of any variety. :)
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 09, 2011, 10:35:07 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on December 09, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
But, considering that both of his parents are atheist, I think the likelihood of him "finding" a strong religious calling on his own as a child is probably going to be pretty unlikely.
I don't know, kids have a way of going off in their own directions. Goodness knows I wasn't raised by atheists, and yet here I am. What's-her-name, that caustic woman who started American Atheists, had a son that turned out religious -- in fact, I think he's a preacher now. I don't think it'd be any more unlikely for an atheist's kid to be religious than a Democrat's kid to be Republican, and vice versa.
Yeah, maybe. I don't know the stats on it, to be honest, but I guess every parent hopes that their kid will have values that are similar to their own.
I'm still trying to get my husband to brace himself for the eventuality that the little guy might not turn out to be a "geek" like him (i.e. a sci-fi enthused gamer). I think my husband would find it more horrific if he turned out to be a jock than if he turned out to be religious :P Worst case scenario: a religious jock.
I'm terribly afraid I do not understand the idea of atheistic parents taking their children to any kind of house of worship. So confusing is this concept to me, that I find myself seriously troubled by it. Certainly, a parent should share what the world is like with children, to explain and expose from a safe place a child to the reality of the world, but a church or synagogue or mosque exists to brainwash. Thery have surprisingly complex systems in place to exploit people into thinking in ways that are self-destructive and that ultimate create a dangerous, unhealthy dependence on religion. That is not an environment for a responsible parent's child, and I feel like people who are intentionally atheist, that is people who have carefully considered the religious issues and who have decided to remain or become atheist, should know better.
It's troubling.
Quote from: Will on December 10, 2011, 04:52:08 AM
Certainly, a parent should share what the world is like with children, to explain and expose from a safe place a child to the reality of the world, but a church or synagogue or mosque exists to brainwash.
Speaking for myself, I think that's a bit extreme and no more true than saying political parties exist to brainwash or that families exist to brainwash. Some of all those groups can be bad in ways that do include brainwashing -- cults, fascists, abusive homes, etc. -- but considering anything offered by the whole to be bad is excessive and untrue, and considering all believers to be merely brainwashed a little insulting.
I frankly think you've got the cart before the horse on this one -- organized religion does not create believers, the belief was there before and if organized religion were dismantled the belief would still exist. I suppose I have a hard time with the alarmist view of religion because nearly all my friends and family are religious to some degree, and most the them very religious, and none of them are what I'd consider dangerous, self-destructive or mentally unhealthy.
I think the dangerous, self-destructive and mentally unhealthy aspect of religions in general that focus around death (such as Christianity) is that once the security blanket is removed, people are left with existential problems. The way it sets itself up too, where you're only worth something if you were created in the image of god is a little disturbing.
I wouldn't consider myself an alarmist, but I do think that religion is better with a more mature mind. I don't really know enough to say with a good level of certainty, but childhood indoctrination is a bit problematic. It would depend on the church and what sort of message they're trying to get across I guess. Some slight measure of comfort lies with the fact that the parents are atheists, so at least they see through some of the...um...teachings...of some sorts of churches and are good enough not to involve their children with them.
The churches I went to as a kid focused on 'fun'. What better way to snag a tot by singing fun religious ditties and making crafts to take home? What kid wants to on the "out" when all the other kids are having fun? I too was dragged to church before my cognitive faculties were developed, yet somehow, I never did believe. But that is the crux of the matter...cognitive faculties. I think it a mistake for atheists parents to take their children to church or religious functions that are surrounded by other kids being brainwashed. Explain to a 5 year old all you want the religious craziness involved, but they won't understand. All they will see are other kids having fun.
A new church is to open soon here and when driving by the first thing you will see is the McDonalds type playhouse built into the church. Jesus loves the little children enough to have the church build playhouses and have 'plays' that every kid can be involved in and make mommy cute little crafts and all manner of things. Having fun is not "crazy" to a kid. They will not understand the subversive tactics religion uses to thwart critical thinking skills while they slide down the slide into a vat of plastic balls and singing Jesus Loves Me.
I kept my children out of church for the simple fact that I knew I could not combat religious brainwashing and peer pressure. It wasn't until they became teenagers when the serious questions they posed came forth. Then we had a bunch of little talks every now and then. And that's when I told them that they can (for the most part) reason it out for themselves and go to churches, mosques, synagogues, whatever, if they wished.
My daughter, still in high school at the time, had friends that invited her to a few churches. She went and never went back. My son has never expressed a wish to go to a church.
Peer pressure in school was enough, I felt they didn't need the extra baggage in a church.
Quote from: Gawen on December 10, 2011, 01:22:42 PM
I think it a mistake for atheists parents to take their children to church or religious functions that are surrounded by other kids being brainwashed. Explain to a 5 year old all you want the religious craziness involved, but they won't understand. All they will see are other kids having fun.
That's just the thing -- this religious brainwashing that's supposed to be going on is probably also being lost in kids just having fun.
QuoteI kept my children out of church for the simple fact that I knew I could not combat religious brainwashing and peer pressure.
And here's another thing --
you combatted the religious brainwashing and peer pressure (I'd simply call it teaching, but whatever) and apparently you did it all on your own. So did I, and I
liked the religious instruction and sermons. I was probably one of the few kids in my Sunday School class who actually paid attention instead of daydreaming about being outdoors or getting a look up somebody's skirt, and it still came to nothing. Unless we're dealing with the likes of Westboro Baptist, which is a whole other level of people going wrong, churches just don't seem that dangerous to me.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 10, 2011, 07:01:39 AMSpeaking for myself, I think that's a bit extreme and no more true than saying political parties exist to brainwash or that families exist to brainwash.
That doesn't make it right. Political parties do exist to brainwash, and, like religion, they're largely destructive. They strip away independent thought, attack skepticism of the accepted answers to questions, they steal away your time, they give you false hope, and, yes, they brainwash you.
People like to thing Jesus Camp is some rare exception, that ruining children for the rest of their lives by utilizing a system which is perfectly suited to remove or disable any part of you that might interfere with your being religious is just something the extremists and fundamentalists do, but it's not. It's in every single church. It's in conservative churches and liberal churches. It's in Methodist churches and Lutheran churches. It was in your church. It's still in your church. They use emotional activities to get children excited. They use rhythmic chanting of concepts. They praise the most devout behaviors and either marginalize or even outright punish questioning the programming. They have adults there to model this behavior and these beliefs, too, to make it seem more normal. And these poor kids are exposed to this environment over and over and over and over until they can't help but think that it's normal; that it's normal to have artwork of a man being tortured; that it's normal to get morality from a single book written hundreds and hundreds of years ago; that it's normal to not only believe in things with no evidence, but to devote your life to them. Without the benefit of a church crafted around brainwashing, these concepts and practices could be dismissed out of hand by the vast majority of people. The fact that most of the atheists on this forum used to be in churches attests to that.
If I spent the next 50 years becoming the world's foremost expert on brainwashing and set about creating a perfect system to indoctrinate children, I would end up making a church.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 10, 2011, 07:01:39 AMI frankly think you've got the cart before the horse on this one -- organized religion does not create believers, the belief was there before and if organized religion were dismantled the belief would still exist.
The problem is I've seen this argument before. What you've done is you're uncomfortable with the reality that church creates and fosters belief in god, so you've reached a conclusion you're more comfortable with. If I ask you to back this up (spoiler: I'm about to ask you to back this up), you're not going to have your data on hand already. You're going to have to go looking for it. You'll have to scour internet forums and blog posts and old articles to see if someone else has answered this already. And I don't even have to ask you why you're doing this, because you already know: you're not comfortable with what I'm sure you already see as a pretty obvious truth, so you choose an alternate answer you have no reason to believe and you're going to try to desperately back it up with data after having come to a conclusion. Only that's not how this works. You ask a question, you gather as much evidence as you can, then you use that evidence to form a conclusion. Doing it the other way around is just going to lead to confirmation bias.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtcUnless we're dealing with the likes of Westboro Baptist, which is a whole other level of people going wrong, churches just don't seem that dangerous to me.
Anything that seeks to squelch critical thinking skills is potentially dangerous, no matter how innocuous it may seem.
Quote from: Will on December 10, 2011, 07:12:44 PM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 10, 2011, 07:01:39 AMSpeaking for myself, I think that's a bit extreme and no more true than saying political parties exist to brainwash or that families exist to brainwash.
That doesn't make it right. Political parties do exist to brainwash, and, like religion, they're largely destructive. They strip away independent thought, attack skepticism of the accepted answers to questions, they steal away your time, they give you false hope, and, yes, they brainwash you.
So, you'd replace political parties with what? They do serve a function.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 10, 2011, 07:01:39 AMI frankly think you've got the cart before the horse on this one -- organized religion does not create believers, the belief was there before and if organized religion were dismantled the belief would still exist.
QuoteThe problem is I've seen this argument before. What you've done is you're uncomfortable with the reality that church creates and fosters belief in god, so you've reached a conclusion you're more comfortable with. If I ask you to back this up (spoiler: I'm about to ask you to back this up), you're not going to have your data on hand already.
Of course not, I'm not a scientist nor is this a specific area of study of mine. I still think you're wrong about how I came to my belief about which came first -- that was based on my personal experience, observations of religious friends and family and most of all, research done by scientists for whom the persistence of religious belief is a special area of study (I particularly recommend
Why God Won't Go Away: brain science and the biology of belief, by Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquill). I just don't see how organized religion could have been deliberately created by somebody making up stories about all powerful sky fairies in order to manipulate and control people, rather than a belief in something supernatural and/or sacred being innate and gradually developing into organized religion which some people have used to manipulate and control others.
No, god and organized religion are definition a huge form of brain washing and controlling people. I pretty much agree with everything Will has to say on the matter.
We all know it's wrong, so we should stop it from ever entering our children's lives.
Westboro baptist church is the most deadly, BUT-- that doesn't mean pretty much every church mindset is already at that. Children are our future, so let's shape them to think for themselves and use reason and logic to live their lives, rather than kneeling/praying to someone that isn't there. We all have security blankets, but it's time for this one to go..
I'm gonna go with BooksCatsEtc on this one. People have a psychological predisposition for superstitions, which evolve into elaborate belief systems alongside political agendas. People notice what an excellent tool it is and it all goes downhill from there. Though human nature is responsible for superstitions and magical thinking, the political side to it can't be underestimated...to do so is incredibly naive.
i married a devout protestant girl - so i have accompanied her to church quite regularly over the years.. you get to meet a lot of genuine ( if misguided ) people at church . you also learn lots about the church life , church thinking and get to hear some interesting interpretations of biblical texts, particularly when we get a visiting preacher with an agenda to push and lets face it you don't get up at 6.00am on a Sunday and practice a speech for a bunch of strangers unless you got some sort of great commitment to promote.
sometimes i get an attack of the guilts when i feel like a NAZI plant in an English village circa 1937 . but the feeling soon passes
Its not all fun though and a lot of Sundays are as boring as shit on a hard pew , so i am paying for my education in pain.
But one thing that has become clear is that all the experts and there are many in the christian world have many and varied interpretations of the true biblical record,
for a book that is so definite and precise in its public persona that can be so different when interpreted by REAL experts is hard to fathom for the unconverted . The authorship is allegedly infallible and the message is set in concrete so how come every second christian intellectual cannot read it as it is supposed to be read and accept it as the gospel truth.They can't help themselves they have to get all high and mighty and superior and tell you exactly how it was and what was in the minds of various authors and why they are the only ones to now the correct interpretation of the facts , all without a shred of evidence other than their own obvious infallibility on things religious
of course this made EXTREMELY difficult by the BIBLE publishing industry ( in which i wish i had a truckload of shares , but don't) as there is a myriad of different true versions of the bible one can buy 90% of which are made up or translated in the US.
The only thing that remains to be done is for the Christian Lobby to tell us of the great unwashed which is the real correct genuine version of scripture otherwise we will never get it right will we.
You can make a lot of money on the religious circuit and meet a lot of bored lonely committee ladies for afternoon tea where you can do pretty well for oneself
so what i am recommending is get along to your local church today and see what you can do for yourself you will be amazed.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 11, 2011, 03:45:13 AMSo, you'd replace political parties with what? They do serve a function.
They originally served a theoretical function, so people of similar beliefs could pool their efforts to get people of their group elected, but now? No way, Jose. Political parties now exist to squelch any debate or discussion that falls outside of the narrow range of debate between the far right party, the GOP, and the center right party, the Democrats. Despite the fact that the large majority of the country is anti-war, there's no anti-war party. Despite the fact that the large majority of the country wants taxes increased on the very wealthy, there's no party to increase those taxes. Despite the fact that a very large majority of the country wants Wall Street regulated more strongly, there's no party willing to regulate Wall Street. Political parties have killed the debate, and people in political parties are subject to groupthink, having their false beliefs reinforced while having their skepticism of any party line marginalized.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on December 11, 2011, 03:45:13 AMOf course not, I'm not a scientist nor is this a specific area of study of mine. I still think you're wrong about how I came to my belief about which came first -- that was based on my personal experience, observations of religious friends and family and most of all, research done by scientists for whom the persistence of religious belief is a special area of study (I particularly recommend Why God Won't Go Away: brain science and the biology of belief, by Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquill). I just don't see how organized religion could have been deliberately created by somebody making up stories about all powerful sky fairies in order to manipulate and control people, rather than a belief in something supernatural and/or sacred being innate and gradually developing into organized religion which some people have used to manipulate and control others.
I never said it was deliberately created to do so, in fact I believe that religions are the way they are more as a result of evolution than anything else. Religions that were ill equipped to brainwash were less suited to survival than those better equipped. Religions that didn't create a dependency died while those that did thrived.
The churches don't build the most impressive building in town for no reason.
The priests don't wear those fancy robes and hats for nothing.
My daughter was interested in a career in theatre, not hard to imagine why, churches offer similar attractions with that little bit extra.