Afghan woman's choice: 12 years in jail or marry her rapist and risk death (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/22/world/asia/afghanistan-rape/index.html?hpt=ias_c1)
QuoteKabul (CNN) -- The ordeal of Gulnaz did not simply begin and end with the physical attack of her rape. The rape began a years-long nightmare of further pain, culminating in an awful choice she must now make.
Even two years later, Gulnaz remembers the smell and state of her rapist's clothes when he came into the house when her mother left for a brief visit to the hospital.
"He had filthy clothes on as he does metal and construction work. When my mother went out, he came into my house and he closed doors and windows. I started screaming, but he shut me up by putting his hands on my mouth," she said.
The rapist was her cousin's husband.
After the attack, she hid what happened as long as she could. But soon she began vomiting in the mornings and showing signs of pregnancy. It was her attacker's child.
In Afghanistan, this brought her not sympathy, but prosecution. Aged just 19, she was found guilty by the courts of sex outside of marriage -- adultery -- and sentenced to twelve years in jail...
I won't comment yet I still haven't clamed down from reading this.
I'm just glad I live in a secularised modern country, and not one stuck in the Dark Ages. With countries like Afghanistan, I never quite know which of their barbaric laws are due to Islam, and which are just old tribal laws. Either way, it's horrible and depressing that people still live in countries with laws like this.
Well, you know it's her own fault for getting raped. This is why women need male relatives around at all times; they just can't be trusted not to tempt men into raping them and ruining their families' honour.
Sounds like gods will to me.
I wonder if there's any penalty for the rapist, even if only in theory.
Quote from: OldGit on November 23, 2011, 03:49:28 PM
I wonder if there's any penalty for the rapist, even if only in theory.
He was jailed too, but they were both jailed for adultery, not rape (he denies raping her). Apparently she reported the alleged rape four months after it took place, and there was no evidence of her ever having been attacked, so police were unable to prove wether a rape occurred or not.
That first CNN post seems a bit dodgy concerning the facts of the case, painting it as a black and white rape case. Gulnaz may well have been raped, but in a country where adultery carries a long jail sentence, and she had become pregnant outside wedlock, it may also be possible that she might claim she had been raped rather than admit fornication / adultery. Of course she may also have been raped.
Apparently the Afghan prosecutor's investigation concluded that Gulnaz and her attacker had had consensual sex several times. Months later, when it emerged she was pregnant, the prosecutor says that their families met to try and settle the issue through a financial payment. When those discussions broke down, the accusation of rape was made.
I don't know enough about the case to be able to make a judgement on any of the above, it just may not be quite as black and white as the CNN journalist has portrayed it in that story.
Ah, as I was typing this post, I see that
Too Few Lions read the followup story from CNN and answered before I did:
"Jailed Afghan rape victim has sentence reduced, remains in jail" (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/11/23/world/meast/afghan-rape-victim/index.html?iref=obinsite) by Nick Paton Walsh for CNN.
QuoteAfghan prosecutors announced Wednesday that a young rape victim, jailed for adultery after reporting the crime and pushed into marrying her attacker, would have her sentence reduced from twelve to three years. The prosecutor said she would, for now, remain in jail -- with her child -- for not reporting her attack fast enough.
. . .
The attorney general spokesman, Rahmatullah Nazari, said their investigation had concluded there was no rape, but instead sex outside of wedlock, resulting in both the male attacker and Gulnaz being convicted of adultery.
"Gulnaz claims that she has been raped. But because she reported the crime four months later, we couldn't find any evidence [of an attack]," Nazari said. "She was convicted for not reporting a crime on time."
Gulnaz's attacker denied having sex with her. He told CNN he was serving jail time because he had been accused of rape. His conviction records show he is in jail for "zina", a Dari word that directly translates as "adultery." Human rights workers note that rape cases are often handled as adultery in Afghanistan's court system.
Women are still stoned to death in Afghanistan for "adultery," so she's luckier than some. I think that it looks likely that when the coalition forces withdraw from Afghanistan, the Taliban will take power again, and the stonings will happen more often, as they did before the invasion. It's an ugly situation.
I'm not sure about this particular case, but in many instances the woman needs "trustworthy" male eye-witnesses (three, I think?) for her complaint of rape to be taken even remotely seriously. I've never heard of a woman actually pursuing this in Afghanistan, because the "dishonor" is already cast on her and she is probably more afraid about possibly being murdered by her relatives than trying to garner support from potential witnesses.
Edit: Even in the western world there is still the mentality that it the woman's responsibility to "not get raped' vs. focusing on what causes rape to begin with and addressing the actual issue.
yeah, I imagine you have to be very brave to pursue a rape case in a country like Afghanistan. I dread to think what things will be like when western forces withdraw if the Taliban seize power again.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 23, 2011, 04:41:25 PM
yeah, I imagine you have to be very brave to pursue a rape case in a country like Afghanistan. I dread to think what things will be like when western forces withdraw if the Taliban seize power again.
If only one could get out of there, nail shut the borders so no heroin comes out and forget that dump even exists... Well, I, for one, would call it "problem solved".
If a girl (lets call her Mary) lived in the middle east in the past (maybe a couple of thousand years ago) and got pregnant out of wedlock, would she be wise to suggest that it was a divine pregnancy?
Would the local Arabs be that gullible?
Quote from: Stevil on November 23, 2011, 06:02:07 PM
If a girl (lets call her Mary) lived in the middle east in the past (maybe a couple of thousand years ago) and got pregnant out of wedlock, would she be wise to suggest that it was a divine pregnancy?
Would the local Arabs be that gullible?
That thought has wandered across my mind in the past; was Mary the biggest con-artist of all time?
She'd have had good reason to lie - the Old Testicle view of adultery is much like the moslems'.
Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die."
Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."
Quote from: Tank on November 23, 2011, 07:00:00 PM
That thought has wandered across my mind in the past; was Mary the biggest con-artist of all time?
Well, if she did exist, she just wanted to survive.
But of course no-one would have believed her, she would have been stoned or simply would have married Joeseph. The biblical story makes no sense as anything other than a children's fairytale.
As for this horrific rape incident, what would society look like if Christians got to set the law without an understanding of seperation of state and religion?
Quote from: Stevil on November 23, 2011, 07:48:24 PM
Quote from: Tank on November 23, 2011, 07:00:00 PM
That thought has wandered across my mind in the past; was Mary the biggest con-artist of all time?
Well, if she did exist, she just wanted to survive.
But of course no-one would have believed her, she would have been stoned or simply would have married Joeseph. The biblical story makes no sense as anything other than a children's fairytale.
As for this horrific rape incident, what would society look like if Christians got to set the law without an understanding of seperation of state and religion?
Salem, MA?
Quote from: Tank on November 23, 2011, 07:00:00 PM
That thought has wandered across my mind in the past; was Mary the biggest con-artist of all time?
She was probably a very bad con artist, however, daddy loved her and wanted to believe her and as a patriarch in the family, his word was the law. OR he was touching her inappropriately and was therefor in on the scam...
Quote from: OldGit on November 23, 2011, 07:20:36 PM
the Old Testicle....
LOL
I feel a bit giddyish but that's hilarious regardless :D
Quote from: xSilverPhinx
Quote from: OldGit on November 23, 2011, 07:20:36 PM
the Old Testicle....
LOLI feel a bit giddyish but that's hilarious regardless :D
Well, we all know the bible is bollocks. So, logically, we can divide it into testicles.
Quote from: OldGit on November 24, 2011, 02:13:37 PM
Well, we all know the bible is bollocks. So, logically, we can divide it into testicles.
:D Brilliant OG, I think we should all call it the Old Testicle and the New Testicle from now on.
I'm sure there's some kind of castration joke to be made there... I just can't quite come up with one.
Quote from: Too Few Lions on November 24, 2011, 03:03:54 PM
Quote from: OldGit on November 24, 2011, 02:13:37 PM
Well, we all know the bible is bollocks. So, logically, we can divide it into testicles.
:D Brilliant OG, I think we should all call it the Old Testicle and the New Testicle from now on.
Two questions.
Why is one older than the other?
Why is one so much... bigger than the other?
These are very good questions and I'm so glad you asked them.
Reality check:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?81304-Jailed-Afghan-rape-victim-released-to-marry-attacker
Someone asked what the Taliban would do if they would come back.
Knowing the Taliban, they would probably make sure the rapist will wish
he was never born and probably force the rapist to pay a fine to the girl.
Sick stuff like this doesn't happen in Taliban controlled area's, people would not dare doing it.
It happened at the heart of the so called Afghan government which is supported by the West, no wonder they wanted to
forbid the documentary.
Makes you wonder why the Afghans are so sick of this government.
Interesting. So there is some good in them. Hi, iSoK, great to hear from you again. ;D
Quote from: OldGit on December 02, 2011, 12:55:53 PM
Interesting. So there is some good in them. Hi, iSoK, great to hear from you again. ;D
Good to see you again too, I sometimes come here and read a few posts.
Not really having the time these days for long discussions as I used to have.
Me, I have no problem with Afghanistan being ruled by fear of Taliban, as long as those around that dump manage to nail shut the borders.
Quote from: iSok on December 02, 2011, 12:51:10 PM
Reality check:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?81304-Jailed-Afghan-rape-victim-released-to-marry-attacker
Sick stuff like this doesn't happen in Taliban controlled area's
where's the reality check iSok? That article says she agreed to marry her attacker but didn't want to, and that she was jailed but now released.
To say that things like this don't happen in Taliban controlled areas is utter rubbish. If this had happpened in a Taliban controlled area, Gulnaz would have been executed for adultery rather than jailed!
Here's a recent article from Amnesty International on the lovely Taliban;
http://blog.amnestyusa.org/middle-east/taliban-leaders-should-be-prosecuted-for-war-crimes/
Sanam Gul was a widow, 35 years old and pregnant. According to news reports she was kept in captivity for three days before being shot to death in a public trial by the Afghan Taliban. The punishment was carried out by Mohammad Yousuf, the area Taliban commander amid a crowd of onlookers.
Sanam Gul's death comes soon after the chilling Aug 7 executions of ten medical aid workers who had been returning from a trip to provide free medical care to remote regions of Afghanistan. Presumably these aid workers were shot for not being Muslims.
The Taliban are famous for the barbaric way that they treat women, do you agree with Taliban policies of not allowing women to be educated, or banning them from being able to work, or not allowing them a free choice on who to marry, or forcing them to remain imprisoned in their own home?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women
Also a lot of their funding comes from the drug trade and crime, these are some of the most unpleasant people on Earth
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1919154,00.html
and here's another good story on how the Taliban deal with rape from Pakistan's The Times newspaper on the alleged kidnap and rape of an 11 year old girl;
http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=10033&Cat=13
They threatened the girl's family and told them to withdraw the case, and also told the girl to get an abortion!
There's also reports than an important Taliban faction (the Haqqani) have been serially raping women and filming it!
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=125169
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/200342.php
I've heard claims the jail sentence is a sign of progress, a few years back she would have been stoned already.
Quote from: iSok on December 02, 2011, 12:51:10 PM. . .Sick stuff like this doesn't happen in Taliban controlled area's, people would not dare doing it.
So, reports of Taliban "justice" such as this (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-08-16/news/27072789_1_pregnant-woman-adultery-sentences) are all lies,
iSok?
Quote from: Recusant on December 02, 2011, 03:13:24 PM
Quote from: iSok on December 02, 2011, 12:51:10 PM. . .Sick stuff like this doesn't happen in Taliban controlled area's, people would not dare doing it.
So, reports of Taliban "justice" such as this (http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-08-16/news/27072789_1_pregnant-woman-adultery-sentences) are all lies, iSok?
No it's not a lie.
I would love to discuss this, but I know if I mingle in, it will cost a lot of time...
I know this is an old thread, but suddenly relevant again.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/03/morocco-suicide-women-rape.html
Just like Tank with that original post, I haven't calmed down since reading this.
That is the kind of thing that deserves deep seethed and righteous fury!
One of the locals here in Arkansas pointed out to me that this is what happens when you let "those damn Muslims and their Sharia Law run things!" I had to point him to Deuteronomy 22:28.
I heard about this. And a little part of me died inside.
That's so heartbreaking. :'( I truly do not understand how some cultures can look at 1/2 of their population and not have feel any empathy or basic humanity towards them.
Isn't this exactly what AD was defending in the thread about rape? "God knew that if we made them our wives they would be our equals." Yes, forcing a woman you've raped to be your wife is the brilliant solution (and obviously makes women "equal" to men in the cultures that still do this.) >:(
It's hard for me to put into words how exactly I feel about this. It is just flat out disgusting.
Quote from: fester30 on March 15, 2012, 11:47:37 PM
One of the locals here in Arkansas pointed out to me that this is what happens when you let "those damn Muslims and their Sharia Law run things!" I had to point him to Deuteronomy 22:28.
They don't realize what all they're defending when they advocate "(Christian) traditional marriage", now do they?
Quote from: Radiant on March 16, 2012, 04:09:56 PM
It's hard for me to put into words how exactly I feel about this. It is just flat out disgusting.
Quote from: fester30 on March 15, 2012, 11:47:37 PM
One of the locals here in Arkansas pointed out to me that this is what happens when you let "those damn Muslims and their Sharia Law run things!" I had to point him to Deuteronomy 22:28.
They don't realize what all they're defending when they advocate "(Christian) traditional marriage", now do they?
When those religious nuts bring up "traditional marriage" and how the "gays are ruining it" I should point out that little passage as well. e__e
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 21, 2012, 05:07:45 AM
When those religious nuts bring up "traditional marriage" and how the "gays are ruining it"
It's bullshit, of course, but assuming the opposite for a second, The Asmo just can not understand why it would be so terrible..?
Quote from: Asmodean on March 21, 2012, 05:17:27 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 21, 2012, 05:07:45 AM
When those religious nuts bring up "traditional marriage" and how the "gays are ruining it"
It's bullshit, of course, but assuming the opposite for a second, The Asmo just can not understand why it would be so terrible..?
What wouldnt be so terrible?
((sorry, a bit confused by question/what you mean.))
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 21, 2012, 06:11:45 AM
What wouldnt be so terrible?
The following scenario: Gays are allowed the same rights as everyone else and the "institution of marriage" is ruined. Why is that the terribadest thing ever?
Quote from: Asmodean on March 21, 2012, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 21, 2012, 06:11:45 AM
What wouldnt be so terrible?
The following scenario: Gays are allowed the same rights as everyone else and the "institution of marriage" is ruined. Why is that the terribadest thing ever?
Because a lot of social conservatives (mistakenly) think that the institute of marriage is what keeps the fabric of society together. Never mind the fact that "traditional" marriage really isn't that traditional and there are tons of other functional examples of societies that work with other family structures.
But, of course, they don't actually look at any social history/research. They just keep chanting that, if gay people marry and the "institution of marriage" falls apart, it's "social experimentation" and HORRIBLE things will happen ::)
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:28:25 PM
But, of course, they don't actually look at any social history/research. They just keep chanting that, if gay people marry and the "institution of marriage" falls apart, it's "social experimentation" and HORRIBLE things will happen ::)
I saw a conservative evangelical preacher on the BBC last weekend talking about gay marriage and reminding everyone about Sodom and Gomorrah. He seriously appeared to believe that Yahweh would rain fire and brimstone down on us and destroy the UK if we allow gay marriage!
Quote from: Too Few Lions on March 21, 2012, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:28:25 PM
But, of course, they don't actually look at any social history/research. They just keep chanting that, if gay people marry and the "institution of marriage" falls apart, it's "social experimentation" and HORRIBLE things will happen ::)
I saw a conservative evangelical preacher on the BBC last weekend talking about gay marriage and reminding everyone about Sodom and Gomorrah. He seriously appeared to believe that Yahweh would rain fire and brimstone down on us and destroy the UK if we allow gay marriage!
Yes, because of all of the horrible, crazy shit humans have done to each other in the past several thousand years, THAT'S the one thing that will finally make God get involved in what we do.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 21, 2012, 08:52:37 AM
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 21, 2012, 06:11:45 AM
What wouldnt be so terrible?
The following scenario: Gays are allowed the same rights as everyone else and the "institution of marriage" is ruined. Why is that the terribadest thing ever?
I honestly have no clue, but i'm guessing most people still stereotype and generalize homosexuals to be of another species. A sort of sub human race, except we don't have any cool x-men powers.
*shurgs sadly* No idea, Great Asmo. Perhaps if some people finally admit sexual preference has very little to do with who someone is as a whole, all the religious followers might lose it.
Just like.how gender is a society structure, because men and women arent so different.either.
I think marriage is dull, but everyone (human) should have their right to it.
Quote from: Sweetdeath on March 21, 2012, 05:07:45 AM
Quote from: Radiant on March 16, 2012, 04:09:56 PM
It's hard for me to put into words how exactly I feel about this. It is just flat out disgusting.
Quote from: fester30 on March 15, 2012, 11:47:37 PM
One of the locals here in Arkansas pointed out to me that this is what happens when you let "those damn Muslims and their Sharia Law run things!" I had to point him to Deuteronomy 22:28.
They don't realize what all they're defending when they advocate "(Christian) traditional marriage", now do they?
When those religious nuts bring up "traditional marriage" and how the "gays are ruining it" I should point out that little passage as well. e__e
Oh, and that's not the only passage you can point out. (http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/kattenijin/marriage.png) ;)
Whenever I see somebody mention the words 'traditional marriage' to oppose same-sex marriage I want to smack them across the face so bad.
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 03:03:16 PM
Quote from: Too Few Lions on March 21, 2012, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on March 21, 2012, 01:28:25 PM
But, of course, they don't actually look at any social history/research. They just keep chanting that, if gay people marry and the "institution of marriage" falls apart, it's "social experimentation" and HORRIBLE things will happen ::)
I saw a conservative evangelical preacher on the BBC last weekend talking about gay marriage and reminding everyone about Sodom and Gomorrah. He seriously appeared to believe that Yahweh would rain fire and brimstone down on us and destroy the UK if we allow gay marriage!
Yes, because of all of the horrible, crazy shit humans have done to each other in the past several thousand years, THAT'S the one thing that will finally make God get involved in what we do.
LOL. Yes. Because, this God, after a couple of thousands of years of only doing stuff that you have to have faith to believe was actually done by him, is going to come down and do something that can be tangibly observed over a "sin" that isn't even in the Ten Commandments.
I mean where was this God's wrath when people started wearing clothes with multiple fabrics without a second thought?
Quote from: Radiant on March 21, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
I mean where was this God's wraith when people started wearing clothes with multiple fabrics without a second thought?
Gods Wraith? Where in the bible did god have a wraith? :P
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 21, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: Radiant on March 21, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
I mean where was this God's wraith when people started wearing clothes with multiple fabrics without a second thought?
Gods Wraith? Where in the bible did god have a wraith? :P
Oh, come on. You know what I meant! >.<
(actually didn't know that 'wraith' was a separate word)
Quote from: Radiant on March 21, 2012, 05:05:25 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 21, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: Radiant on March 21, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
I mean where was this God's wraith when people started wearing clothes with multiple fabrics without a second thought?
Gods Wraith? Where in the bible did god have a wraith? :P
Oh, come on. You know what I meant! >.<
(actually didn't know that 'wraith' was a separate word)
See, you learn something new every day! (And yes, I was applying ninja sarcasm.)
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 21, 2012, 05:07:57 PM
Quote from: Radiant on March 21, 2012, 05:05:25 PM
Quote from: Guardian85 on March 21, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: Radiant on March 21, 2012, 04:54:50 PM
I mean where was this God's wraith when people started wearing clothes with multiple fabrics without a second thought?
Gods Wraith? Where in the bible did god have a wraith? :P
Oh, come on. You know what I meant! >.<
(actually didn't know that 'wraith' was a separate word)
See, you learn something new every day! (And yes, I was applying ninja sarcasm.)
Yes. Now I do know that those terms are separate.
Anyway... I just wanted to comment on something incredibly crazy I just saw on my Facebook. I have this friend who is a strong Christian and also very conservative. He's commented on everything lately, including Obama's "War on Religion". Anyway, he just posted a link to this petition (of some sort, I don't know exactly) to end stuff like this case of this women getting raped in Morocco and being forced to get married to her rapist.
I can not believe it. This guy will be quick to point to the Bible to justify his hatred of homosexuality, but somehow he doesn't support this government's decision, despite this case being clearly approved by the Bible.
I wanted to comment so bad, but I figured I shouldn't.
Quote from: Radiant
(actually didn't know that 'wraith' was a separate word)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmimg.ugo.com%2F201101%2F7%2F9%2F0%2F163097%2Fcuts%2Ftodd-the-wraith_480x360.jpg&hash=be32d315da24997fb1d58ebde759ee31ae111844)
Todd finds your lack of faith disturbing.
...So does this guy,
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fa%2Fa0%2FNazgul.PNG%2F150px-Nazgul.PNG&hash=4125fb8531c56f7a2acb365663aa710f20b77aa8)
but Todd has better weapons.
Quote from: Asmodean on March 21, 2012, 05:20:47 PM
Quote from: Radiant
(actually didn't know that 'wraith' was a separate word)
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmimg.ugo.com%2F201101%2F7%2F9%2F0%2F163097%2Fcuts%2Ftodd-the-wraith_480x360.jpg&hash=be32d315da24997fb1d58ebde759ee31ae111844)
Todd finds your lack of faith disturbing.
...So does this guy,
(https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2Fa%2Fa0%2FNazgul.PNG%2F150px-Nazgul.PNG&hash=4125fb8531c56f7a2acb365663aa710f20b77aa8)
but Todd has better weapons.
Yes!
(especially second Wraith <3 )
A matter of taste, of course, but I find Todd to be the coolest wraith I know of.