Hi. I'm Becca. I am a Christian, but most people think I'm more like an Atheist than anything. Apparently not sitting on your ass all day praying, instead of going out and living life and fixing problems yourself makes me a bad Christian. And not trying to force my faith on others is "the equivalent of me not testifying for someone who's going to get a death sentence." I've been a Christian for as long as I can remember and I don't recall any rule that says, "By not force feeding people the Bible and religion, you are deemed hell bound." If anyone can find that in the Bible, I swear I'll apologize for every time I ever flipped off my aunt for telling me I'm going to hell. Personally, I'm not really questioning my faith, but more so questioning every else who claims to be one of my "brothers or sister in Christ." Am I supposed to dress like the Amish and not like rock, and look down my nose at anyone who doesn't share my faith, just because I'm a Christian, or is someone else seeing the flaws in that? Or am I really "a worldy child who is useless to the kingdom"?
*All of the quotes came from my highly uneducated aunt, so while I know that 'worldy' isn't a word, I can't say she knows the same.
Hi Becca,
Great introduction. And.. Welcome to HAF.
The grass is definitely greener on this side, we atheists use baby fertilizer.
I had the same issues/questions when I was a wee lad, no one had any good answers for me either. My answer for myself was just not to pay much mind to things that didn't make sense... of course I'm now an atheist, so maybe you don't want that advice.
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2011, 08:08:37 PM
The grass is definitely greener on this side, we atheists use baby fertilizer.
Any advice is welcomed. I'm just so sick of being the black sheep on both sides of the family. My dad's side is all about drinking and partying and having a good time, and while, I will admit, I love the atmosphere, I spend most of my time with my mom's side, who are the good, strict Christians who are all straightedge and hate cursing and loud music, and anything that has to do with what's going on in the world. It's not as if you can move to another planet to get away from is or anything like that, so I figure, hey, if I'm going to hell, might as well have a good time doing it, right?
Quote from: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 09:14:32 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 10, 2011, 08:08:37 PM
The grass is definitely greener on this side, we atheists use baby fertilizer.
Any advice is welcomed. I'm just so sick of being the black sheep on both sides of the family.
Don't be sick of it, find a way to enjoy it. Even if you have to turn up your nose at how much more awesome being odd is over all those boring people.
Quote from: not your typical...My dad's side is all about drinking and partying and having a good time, and while, I will admit, I love the atmosphere, I spend most of my time with my mom's side, who are the good, strict Christians who are all straightedge and hate cursing and loud music, and anything that has to do with what's going on in the world.
Both sides of my family were very religious, but at least my immediate family was a bit odd... not odd like Westboro, more like odd like never quite fitting in to any of the neighbors or church members comfortable spots. Still they were the straight edge, no drinking, no smoking, no rock music, no dating until 16, no PG13 movies, no cursing types.
Quote from: not your typical...It's not as if you can move to another planet to get away from is or anything like that, so I figure, hey, if I'm going to hell, might as well have a good time doing it, right?
If you can have a good time that doesn't unreasonably hurt anyone else, then by all means do so. This is your life, you should do what you want to do with it. Video games were my other world to escape to. I don't like reading, though I still read an average of two "books*" a month (* mostly crap like sci-fi and recently the subgenre, steampunk). TV, movies and music can all be enjoyed while playing video games... some books too.
My advice is not one size fits all, make sure you try it on before purchasing.
Yeah. most of the stuff i do they don't approve of... I remember when I first started writing, my aunt asked what is a Christian book. I told her it was fiction. She said 'It has no place in your life unless it's all about glorifying God.' I said, regrettably, "The money I could make off of it could buy me a new one." Grounded for 3 months and got my ass kicked. She simply took it the wrong way though
Welcome to HAF.
As for your issue with being pushed to preach at people...I think those who believe you have to preach the word are just as justified as those who don't; no offense but the Bible isn't exactly clear.
But you may want to take a look at Matthew Ch 10 where it basically says to shut up about it if the people aren't receptive. Then there is also a comparison of who should be preached at here: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/samaritans.html
Personally I prefer your approach since it's not annoying.
Quote from: Whitney on November 11, 2011, 01:04:05 AM
Personally I prefer your approach since it's not annoying.
Thank you. :D
Where I'm at, there is no grass at all... Green or otherwise.
Although we've already met, hello and welcome.
Hello Asmodean. And since you have no grass, what do you have? Perhaps that will be more desirable than what is currently available to me.
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
You're a parent aren't you?
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 03:19:37 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
You're a parent aren't you?
Parent, grandparent, attorney, pastor. Bad combination, I guess.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:42:40 AM
Parent, grandparent, attorney, pastor. Bad combination, I guess.
Yeah.... Not helping me in the slightest.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
Prudence about what, exactly?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
Nah... She's a cool minor.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
In what respect, should we lie to her and if so which lies are acceptable or not?
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 04:05:59 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:42:40 AM
Parent, grandparent, attorney, pastor. Bad combination, I guess.
Yeah.... Not helping me in the slightest.
Spot-on youngling ;D
Quote from: Tank on November 11, 2011, 08:21:43 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
In what respect, should we lie to her and if so which lies are acceptable or not?
I suppose with Noselrub being the dreadful combination of factors and professions that he is, he'd want to throw suicide attempts and letter openers in peoples eyes out of the window, to which my response would be "why..?"
I would put it this way: the moment you consider someone old enough to read the bible or hear the stories derived thereof, you should also consider them old enough for any conversation you would engage an adult in. Just to avoid being a hypocrite...
Quote from: not your typical... on November 10, 2011, 07:30:13 PM
Hi. I'm Becca. I am a Christian
Hello Becca
Welcome on board, I think you will find that Atheists are a tolerant bunch, well, as long as you aren't a pushy salesperson.
You sound like a very decent person, I like that.
You also seem to have a reasonable tolerance and thinking mind. I would certainly be interested to understand more about you and how your Christianity influences some of your opinions. There must be some clashes there, although it does seem that Christians are allowed to interpret the scriptures in a way that suits your own prior opinions.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 11, 2011, 06:17:03 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
Prudence about what, exactly?
Yeah, ???
I don't think I've ever seen someone make sexual advances or try to sell other members alcohol on these boards.
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 11, 2011, 06:17:03 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
Prudence about what, exactly?
Ya...I don't understand why the comment came up either...I didn't see anyone offer advise that would be illegal (at least not in the US) or who has made sexual advances. Both of those should be generally avoided (especially the first) on the forum no matter what the age of the poster.
Would it be better if we advised her not to give your aunt the bird when the aunt is extremely rude by telling her that she is going to hell? ;) Actually...that would be my advice as there is probably a more effective response that could effect change but generally teenagers only have so many options (comply or rebel...very few get to act somewhere in the middle).
Quote from: Asmodean on November 11, 2011, 08:45:52 AM
Quote from: Tank on November 11, 2011, 08:21:43 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
In what respect, should we lie to her and if so which lies are acceptable or not?
I suppose with Noselrub being the dreadful combination of factors and professions that he is, he'd want to throw suicide attempts and letter openers in peoples eyes out of the window, to which my response would be "why..?"
I would put it this way: the moment you consider someone old enough to read the bible or hear the stories derived thereof, you should also consider them old enough for any conversation you would engage an adult in. Just to avoid being a hypocrite...
Just because of all the nasty stuff that happens in the bible? Actually I very much agree, if you think a kid can read about incest, murder, genocide, rape, violence, racism, condoned slavery, baby killing, wars and cursing... then what could they read that could possibly be any worse?
Quote from: DeterminedJuliet on November 11, 2011, 11:29:07 AM
Quote from: BooksCatsEtc on November 11, 2011, 06:17:03 AM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
Prudence about what, exactly?
Yeah, ???
I don't think I've ever seen someone make sexual advances or try to sell other members alcohol on these boards.
Pssst. Hey, kid, ya want some maryjane? Somehow, I don't really see things like that being effective on a message board.
Quote from: Asmodean on November 11, 2011, 07:59:24 AM
Nah... She's a cool minor.
Thank you. :)
Quote from: Tank on November 11, 2011, 08:23:01 AM
Spot-on youngling ;D
In what respect, should we lie to her and if so which lies are acceptable or not?
Don't lie to me. That would make me coming to this forum completely pointless.
Quote from: Stevil on November 11, 2011, 09:32:20 AM
You also seem to have a reasonable tolerance and thinking mind. I would certainly be interested to understand more about you and how your Christianity influences some of your opinions. There must be some clashes there, although it does seem that Christians are allowed to interpret the scriptures in a way that suits your own prior opinions.
Stevil, the only clashes I've ever had with my Atheist friends are about the Big Bang Theory (the actual theory, not the show. ;)) and evolution. Even before I was Christian, I didn't accept the belief of people coming from monkeys... I just don't see it. While we are similar species, and they are the closest to humans in comparison, there is always one question that keeps me from accepting it. Where are the half-monkey half-men species that are still stuck in the middle of the process? If you can find one and send it to me, I'll renounce my faith. I've seen closer proof of Pokemon existing though, so it might take a bit of convincing. (https://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg440.imageshack.us%2Fimg440%2F8%2Fpokemonaf.png&hash=8df4bf561b3980353647519e2827de1cc67bf9a0)
Pokemon DO exist!
Quote from: Davin on November 11, 2011, 03:01:00 PM
Just because of all the nasty stuff that happens in the bible? Actually I very much agree, if you think a kid can read about incest, murder, genocide, rape, violence, racism, condoned slavery, baby killing, wars and cursing... then what could they read that could possibly be any worse?
Yeah... tried reading the Bible in sixth grade and using religion as a crutch... I almost worked... kinda. :-\ I read Revelations and Song of Solomon. Two words. Never. Again.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 06:36:47 PM
Even before I was Christian, I didn't accept the belief of people coming from monkeys... I just don't see it.
Would you say that you believe evolution is wrong or would you say that you currently disbelieve the evolution theory?
Quote from: Stevil on November 11, 2011, 07:19:52 PM
Would you say that you believe evolution is wrong or would you say that you currently disbelieve the evolution theory?
Currently disbelieve the theory. If it there was more proof and it became a scientific law, I'd believe it.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 06:36:47 PMQuote from: Davin on November 11, 2011, 03:01:00 PM
Just because of all the nasty stuff that happens in the bible? Actually I very much agree, if you think a kid can read about incest, murder, genocide, rape, violence, racism, condoned slavery, baby killing, wars and cursing... then what could they read that could possibly be any worse?
Yeah... tried reading the Bible in sixth grade and using religion as a crutch... I almost worked... kinda. :-\ I read Revelations and Song of Solomon. Two words. Never. Again.
I don't know what age sixth grade is, I didn't go to a public school until college, but I read the bible when I was nine and had issues with it then.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 07:26:42 PM
Quote from: Stevil on November 11, 2011, 07:19:52 PM
Would you say that you believe evolution is wrong or would you say that you currently disbelieve the evolution theory?
Currently disbelieve the theory. If it there was more proof and it became a scientific law, I'd believe it.
Be careful there, gravity is "just" a theory as well. But we have more evidence and corroboration for evolution than we do for the theory of gravity. Other theories that you must throw into the disbelieve bucket with evolution and gravity are: germ theory (don't you believe in germs?), relativity, modern atomic theory, cell theory and plate tectonic theory are the big ones off the top of my head.
Quote from: Davin on November 11, 2011, 07:47:27 PM
I don't know what age sixth grade is, I didn't go to a public school until college, but I read the bible when I was nine and had issues with it then.
Be careful there, gravity is "just" a theory as well. But we have more evidence and corroboration for evolution than we do for the theory of gravity. Other theories that you must throw into the disbelieve bucket with evolution and gravity are: germ theory (don't you believe in germs?), relativity, modern atomic theory, cell theory and plate tectonic theory are the big ones off the top of my head.
I was 11, and Christian and had issues with it. As for gravity, I believe it's a hoax that keeps people from learning how to fly... But that's just me. One of these days I
will fly, without the use of an airplane.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 08:05:18 PM
One of these days I will fly, without the use of an airplane.
Just in case you see the ground rush at you much faster than expected... Pack a parachute :P You see, it only counts as flying (Gliding, really) if you manage a certain amount of horizontal motion for every unit of lost height. Otherwise, it's just anvil kind of falling.
Quote from: Asmodean on November 11, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Just in case you see the ground rush at you much faster than expected... Pack a parachute :P
Will do Asmo. Don't want to die before I can prove gravity wrong.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 08:14:32 PM
Quote from: Asmodean on November 11, 2011, 08:09:47 PM
Just in case you see the ground rush at you much faster than expected... Pack a parachute :P
Will do Asmo. Don't want to die before I can prove gravity wrong.
Also, give it lots of tries, it's very fun.
Quote from: Davin on November 11, 2011, 08:19:49 PM
Also, give it lots of tries, it's very fun.
Haha. Now, is this bit of knowledge from experience, or just assuming? ;)
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 08:30:25 PM
Quote from: Davin on November 11, 2011, 08:19:49 PM
Also, give it lots of tries, it's very fun.
Haha. Now, is this bit of knowledge from experience, or just assuming? ;)
I used to sky dive, haven't jumped for almost a decade though. But by "used to" I mean I've jumped eight times, three of those times solo.
Quote from: Davin on November 11, 2011, 08:56:23 PM
I used to sky dive, haven't jumped for almost a decade though. But by "used to" I mean I've jumped eight times, three of those times solo.
Cool. Well, if you ever feel like taking it up again, let me know. Maybe we could have a nice little chat on the way down, eh? ;)
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 11, 2011, 03:17:57 AM
Don't want to be a buzzkill, but not your typical is a minor, so prudence is advised.
If she's old enough to be lied to about god, she's old enough to hear all about reality. ::)
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 11, 2011, 10:27:55 PM
If she's old enough to be lied to about god, she's old enough to hear all about reality. ::)
Instead of taking that as an insult to my faith, I'll use it as a compliment about my character.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 11, 2011, 10:27:55 PM
If she's old enough to be lied to about god, she's old enough to hear all about reality. ::)
Instead of taking that as an insult to my faith, I'll use it as a compliment about my character.
You're very mature, how old are you?
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 11, 2011, 10:40:08 PM
You're very mature, how old are you?
15. And thank you. I like to pride myself on not allowing everything that society says or does influence my every though. While it may not be the best way to make friends, it keeps me from being as unintelligent as the majority of kids my age.
My daughter is 15 and I couldn't imagine her debating as you do on a forum like this! She's sat upstairs with her friend giggling away about probably daft teenage stuff.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 11, 2011, 10:47:54 PM
My daughter is 15 and I couldn't imagine her debating as you do on a forum like this! She's sat upstairs with her friend giggling away about probably daft teenage stuff.
hahaha! Don't underestimate her. You'd probably be shocked as of what she could crack out if properly motivated. For me, just the satisfaction of knowing is enough, but some teens need a little extra push. :)
Also I think that majority of my maturity comes from the things that I've been through, and (I'm hoping) she hasn't been through the same stuff.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 06:36:47 PM
Even before I was Christian, I didn't accept the belief of people coming from monkeys... I just don't see it. While we are similar species, and they are the closest to humans in comparison, there is always one question that keeps me from accepting it. Where are the half-monkey half-men species that are still stuck in the middle of the process?
It sounds to me as though you don't understand the 'theory' of evolution. Now I don't claim to be an expert on the subject (yet) so hopefully one of the more knowledgeable posters on the board can correct me if I'm wrong.
Evolution doesn't say that we came from monkeys. It says that humans, monkeys and other apes all came from the same ancestor. This species branched out into the monkeys/apes that we know today. You don't find half-monkey half-men in the middle of the process as you put it because the process is ongoing for all creatures (though arguably inversely so for humans). One could make the argument that a chimpanzee is a half-monkey half-man as it is closer genetically to humans than monkeys are.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 11, 2011, 11:57:18 PM
It sounds to me as though you don't understand the 'theory' of evolution. Now I don't claim to be an expert on the subject (yet) so hopefully one of the more knowledgeable posters on the board can correct me if I'm wrong.
Evolution doesn't say that we came from monkeys. It says that humans, monkeys and other apes all came from the same ancestor. This species branched out into the monkeys/apes that we know today. You don't find half-monkey half-men in the middle of the process as you put it because the process is ongoing for all creatures (though arguably inversely so for humans). One could make the argument that a chimpanzee is a half-monkey half-man as it is closer genetically to humans than monkeys are.
Thank you for the clarification. Everyone who I've ever dealt with said that we came from monkeys. I just couldn't find that believable. But this is a good deal more logical. Still don't really believe it, but if it does happen to be true, I'd be less surprised.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 11:59:47 PM
Thank you for the clarification. Everyone who I've ever dealt with said that we came from monkeys. I just couldn't find that believable. But this is a good deal more logical. Still don't really believe it, but if it does happen to be true, I'd be less surprised.
I'm quite sure that no respected evolutionist would tell you that we 'came from monkeys'. You seem like a smart and curious person, so I would urge you to do some reading on the subject. I think you'll find that it's not only believable, but basically undeniable based on all current evidence. It's also damn fascinating.
I find it kind of sad that so many religious people do believe that evolution says we came from monkeys. They immediately reject the theory based on something that it doesn't even assert...
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 12, 2011, 12:13:08 AM
I'm quite sure that no respected evolutionist would tell you that we 'came from monkeys'. You seem like a smart and curious person, so I would urge you to do some reading on the subject. I think you'll find that it's not only believable, but basically undeniable based on all current evidence. It's also damn fascinating.
You'd be surprised at the number of self-proclaimed evolutionist have said it. I've had teachers, who used to be college professors tell me that we came from monkeys, end of discussion. i thought it was ridiculous. True theory of evolution though, that I could almost agree with. Believable and fascinating, I'm sure. I wouldn't guarantee that it's undeniable though. If it were so undeniable, there would be less people who didn't believe it.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 12:18:38 AM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 12, 2011, 12:13:08 AM
I'm quite sure that no respected evolutionist would tell you that we 'came from monkeys'. You seem like a smart and curious person, so I would urge you to do some reading on the subject. I think you'll find that it's not only believable, but basically undeniable based on all current evidence. It's also damn fascinating.
You'd be surprised at the number of self-proclaimed evolutionist have said it. I've had teachers, who used to be college professors tell me that we came from monkeys, end of discussion. i thought it was ridiculous. True theory of evolution though, that I could almost agree with. Believable and fascinating, I'm sure. I wouldn't guarantee that it's undeniable though. If it were so undeniable, there would be less people who didn't believe it.
Here is a wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_support_for_evolution) about the breakdown of support for evolution/creationism. It might give you come context about people who tend to believe in evolution, vs. people who tend not to (there's a handy chart comparing various religions and their beliefs on this matter).
Thanks DJ. :)
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 12:18:38 AM
If it were so undeniable, there would be less people who didn't believe it.
If people were more informed about it, very few people would deny it.
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 12, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
If people were more informed about it, very few people would deny it.
I'll grant you that it would be a substantially less number of people denying, but I know of atheist who don't even believe in evolution.
Why do they reject it?
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 12, 2011, 01:42:19 AM
Why do they reject it?
Partially out of disgust. (The thought of being related to monkeys, to them, is a horrid thought. And with acknowledging the structural similarities, they like to think of it like two people who have the same last name, but that's the only thing they really have in common.) And partially because they don't see how any species can change this drastically unless over an extreme amount of time, and they don't believe the earth was around
that long. I try not to get too involved in their theories though. Just leaves me confused and in desperate need of prescription strength Excedrin and a large shot of Jack.
We share 58% of our genes with bananas. Tell them that.
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 12, 2011, 02:04:43 AM
We share 58% of our genes with bananas. Tell them that.
Yeah, but bananas are delicious and look like something that most people either have, suck, or f***, so I don't think there will be too many objections.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 02:07:11 AM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 12, 2011, 02:04:43 AM
We share 58% of our genes with bananas. Tell them that.
Yeah, but bananas are delicious and look like something that most people either have, suck, or f***, so I don't think there will be too many objections.
Whoa, not being funny but you are still a child and I'm an adult - I don't really want to be having a banana looking like something I'd suck or fuck type conversation. Boundaries please.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 11:59:47 PM
Thank you for the clarification. Everyone who I've ever dealt with said that we came from monkeys. I just couldn't find that believable. But this is a good deal more logical. Still don't really believe it, but if it does happen to be true, I'd be less surprised.
I think you are smart enough to just read about what evolution really is as a science and will then realize why we think it is valid.
Berkley's Evolution 101 is a great place to start since it's from a non-biased site (as in not an atheist or christian site...they are obviously going to be biased towards real science ;) ) http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml (http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/index.shtml)
We also have a whole section of the forum related to creationism/ID where you may want to ask questions about specific things you have heard about evolution and what those around you believe: http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0 (http://www.happyatheistforum.com/forum/index.php?board=3.0) I can't promise we'll be able to answer all of them in depth but usually one of us at least know where you can read more on a specific issue. Talk Origins would be a good source to try first if you want to see the other side of claims made by places such as Answers in Genesis: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html)
Thanks Whit. Lotta good stuff. :)
Quote from: not your typical... on November 11, 2011, 10:34:57 PM
Quote from: Norfolk And Chance on November 11, 2011, 10:27:55 PM
If she's old enough to be lied to about god, she's old enough to hear all about reality. ::)
Instead of taking that as an insult to my faith, I'll use it as a compliment about my character.
That's the point I was making about being lied to. Some have alluded to the opinion that as a minor you are somehow to be treated as a sub-human when it comes to discussion. Thus people should possibly not tell you the whole truth about a subject. If I don't feel it is appropriate to discuss something with you I simply won't discuss it with you.
Have you read 'Why God' yet?
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 01:08:17 AM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 12, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
If people were more informed about it, very few people would deny it.
I'll grant you that it would be a substantially less number of people denying, but I know of atheist who don't even believe in evolution.
In all the hundreds ot thousands of posts I have read on multiple forums I have never read a post by an atheist that denied evolution. That doesn't say they don't exist anymore than there can be white blackbirds. But I've yet to meet one and the number must be utterly miniscule :)
As a matter of interest what alternative did this evolution denier atheist postulate?
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 12:18:38 AM
You'd be surprised at the number of self-proclaimed evolutionist have said it. I've had teachers, who used to be college professors tell me that we came from monkeys, end of discussion. i thought it was ridiculous. True theory of evolution though, that I could almost agree with. Believable and fascinating, I'm sure. I wouldn't guarantee that it's undeniable though. If it were so undeniable, there would be less people who didn't believe it.
I don't see how evolution can be denied - too much evidence, and its explanatory power is too great. For what it's worth, there are many Christians, myself included, who accept it. If evolution occurred, that has nothing to do with whether Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead. Also, Darwinian evolution posits that we and the apes/monkeys came from a common ancestor, not that we came from monkeys.
I remember for a period of about 6 months when I was 13, I read and watched almost everything I could about evolution. I had always thought it was fascinating, especially convergent evolution with sharks and dolphins.
Quote from: Tank on November 12, 2011, 08:54:09 AM
In all the hundreds ot thousands of posts I have read on multiple forums I have never read a post by an atheist that denied evolution.
I've come across one; can't remember which forum...but I think it was someone who was still in the process of leaving fundamentalist religion and hadn't yet gotten around to actually reading about evolution from non-creationist sources yet. Even then it wasn't someone who denied evolution; just someone who didn't see how it was possible and felt more comfortable being undecided and cautious.
Quote from: Tank on November 12, 2011, 08:54:09 AM
In all the hundreds ot thousands of posts I have read on multiple forums I have never read a post by an atheist that denied evolution.
I'll try to get some to join the forum. But bear in mind that most are not really big on the whole 'thinking' thing so if you don't get much out of them, it's not your fault.
Quote from: Tank on November 12, 2011, 08:54:09 AM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 01:08:17 AM
Quote from: Heisenberg on November 12, 2011, 01:06:14 AM
If people were more informed about it, very few people would deny it.
I'll grant you that it would be a substantially less number of people denying, but I know of atheist who don't even believe in evolution.
In all the hundreds ot thousands of posts I have read on multiple forums I have never read a post by an atheist that denied evolution. That doesn't say they don't exist anymore than there can be white blackbirds. But I've yet to meet one and the number must be utterly miniscule :)
As a matter of interest what alternative did this evolution denier atheist postulate?
I'm also curious to know. Atheists have less reasons to have cognitive dissonances whenever evolution is brought up, so even those who are generally ignorant on the subject don't really care enough to deny it.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 12, 2011, 12:30:21 PM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 12, 2011, 12:18:38 AM
You'd be surprised at the number of self-proclaimed evolutionist have said it. I've had teachers, who used to be college professors tell me that we came from monkeys, end of discussion. i thought it was ridiculous. True theory of evolution though, that I could almost agree with. Believable and fascinating, I'm sure. I wouldn't guarantee that it's undeniable though. If it were so undeniable, there would be less people who didn't believe it.
I don't see how evolution can be denied - too much evidence, and its explanatory power is too great. For what it's worth, there are many Christians, myself included, who accept it. If evolution occurred, that has nothing to do with whether Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead. Also, Darwinian evolution posits that we and the apes/monkeys came from a common ancestor, not that we came from monkeys.
Christians who accept evolution. It's like music to my ears...
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 02:19:29 AM
Christians who accept evolution. It's like music to my ears...
They still sound kinda discordant to me.
Quote from: The Magic Pudding on November 13, 2011, 03:49:06 AM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 02:19:29 AM
Christians who accept evolution. It's like music to my ears...
They still sound kinda discordant to me.
Well...you know what they say about taste ;D
It's a step foward, at least, though I wonder how Adam, Eve and the whole original sin story fits into it all. Definitely a metaphorical explanation...but reconciled how?
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 04:20:10 AM
It's a step foward, at least, though I wonder how Adam, Eve and the whole original sin story fits into it all. Definitely a metaphorical explanation...but reconciled how?
Being a lawyer, I can reconcile anything - although convincing anyone of it is another matter. ;D Yes, Adam and Eve is metaphorical. I see it more as a metaphor of what happens in every person - we go from naive innocence to our own experience with the "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." This causes us to be ejected from our Garden of Eden of innocence into the world of conflict and chaos. Thus, "original sin" (not a biblical term, but a theological one) happens in each individual, not humanity as a whole. The redemption that Christ offers is to reconcile the individual with a loving God, to remove the barriers that prevent relationship.
This has nothing to do with evolution. The first two chapters of Genesis are entirely metaphorical. They don't deal with the actual creation of the human race in scientific terms, but they introduce us to God and to his dealings with an evolved species. The language of early Genesis is hymnic and poetic. It's not until later that you start getting into historical or semi-historical narratives, denoted primarily by the literary genre of the passage.
I can't reconcile any of this stuff.
People are making payments to the sky but there's no evidence it's received.
Agents of dubious authority promise goods will be delivered, but there's no documentation to show delivery has ever been made.
Smells like a scam to me, who audits this stuff, Arthur Andersen?
Hmmmm. Interesting theory you have there, about evolution being true, but also believing in the whole Adam and Eve thing. And does creation still fit into this?
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2011, 01:15:36 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 04:20:10 AM
It's a step foward, at least, though I wonder how Adam, Eve and the whole original sin story fits into it all. Definitely a metaphorical explanation...but reconciled how?
Being a lawyer, I can reconcile anything - although convincing anyone of it is another matter. ;D Yes, Adam and Eve is metaphorical. I see it more as a metaphor of what happens in every person - we go from naive innocence to our own experience with the "fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil." This causes us to be ejected from our Garden of Eden of innocence into the world of conflict and chaos. Thus, "original sin" (not a biblical term, but a theological one) happens in each individual, not humanity as a whole. The redemption that Christ offers is to reconcile the individual with a loving God, to remove the barriers that prevent relationship.
This has nothing to do with evolution. The first two chapters of Genesis are entirely metaphorical. They don't deal with the actual creation of the human race in scientific terms, but they introduce us to God and to his dealings with an evolved species. The language of early Genesis is hymnic and poetic. It's not until later that you start getting into historical or semi-historical narratives, denoted primarily by the literary genre of the passage.
How does your congregation feel about that interpretation? As far as I know, going beyond the literal and more secure interpretation (face value, no interpretation required) can be difficult...
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 08:50:19 PM
How does your congregation feel about that interpretation? As far as I know, going beyond the literal and more secure interpretation (face value, no interpretation required) can be difficult...
They are warming up to it. Besides, I let them know that no one is required to agree with my interpretations. We try to focus more on just learning to have a close fellowship, being there for one another, and putting Jesus' teachings about love into practice. We try not to get tripped off on too much doctrinal stuff.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2011, 08:54:18 PM
We try to focus more on just learning to have a close fellowship, being there for one another, and putting Jesus' teachings about love into practice. We try not to get tripped off on too much doctrinal stuff.
One day, I might have to visit ur church. :) What's the name of it, might I ask?
Quote from: not your typical... on November 13, 2011, 06:07:15 PM
Hmmmm. Interesting theory you have there, about evolution being true, but also believing in the whole Adam and Eve thing. And does creation still fit into this?
As I said, Adam and Eve for me is metaphorical, not literal/historical. I think God is responsible for the existence of the universe, but if you followed my recent exchange with Attila, the whole idea of what "creation" means is difficult. Suffice it to say that I think that a conscious, intelligent being is behind what we call the universe. But I can't prove that any more than anyone else can prove how the universe got here.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2011, 08:58:02 PM
Quote from: not your typical... on November 13, 2011, 06:07:15 PM
Hmmmm. Interesting theory you have there, about evolution being true, but also believing in the whole Adam and Eve thing. And does creation still fit into this?
As I said, Adam and Eve for me is metaphorical, not literal/historical. I think God is responsible for the existence of the universe, but if you followed my recent exchange with Attila, the whole idea of what "creation" means is difficult. Suffice it to say that I think that a conscious, intelligent being is behind what we call the universe. But I can't prove that any more than anyone else can prove how the universe got here.
Yet...
Quote from: not your typical... on November 13, 2011, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2011, 08:54:18 PM
We try to focus more on just learning to have a close fellowship, being there for one another, and putting Jesus' teachings about love into practice. We try not to get tripped off on too much doctrinal stuff.
One day, I might have to visit ur church. :) What's the name of it, might I ask?
River Place Fellowship. Very small. You would have to travel a long way and look hard to find us.
Quote from: Tank on November 13, 2011, 08:59:40 PM
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2011, 08:58:02 PM
But I can't prove that any more than anyone else can prove how the universe got here.
Yet...
haha. Yes, Tank. Yet. *evil grin*
And what state is that in? (Or country?)
Quote from: not your typical... on November 13, 2011, 09:04:43 PM
And what state is that in? (Or country?)
If that was directed to me, I live in Belton, Texas.
Quote from: Ecurb Noselrub on November 13, 2011, 08:54:18 PM
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 08:50:19 PM
How does your congregation feel about that interpretation? As far as I know, going beyond the literal and more secure interpretation (face value, no interpretation required) can be difficult...
They are warming up to it. Besides, I let them know that no one is required to agree with my interpretations. We try to focus more on just learning to have a close fellowship, being there for one another, and putting Jesus' teachings about love into practice. We try not to get tripped off on too much doctrinal stuff.
With Christianity, if you don't have the knowledge or the answers, you are always free just to make stuff up.
Quote from: not your typical... on November 13, 2011, 06:07:15 PM
Hmmmm. Interesting theory you have there, about evolution being true, but also believing in the whole Adam and Eve thing. And does creation still fit into this?
When I was Christian I viewed the Adam and Eve story as metaphorical.
Quote from: xSilverPhinx on November 13, 2011, 08:50:19 PM
How does your congregation feel about that interpretation? As far as I know, going beyond the literal and more secure interpretation (face value, no interpretation required) can be difficult...
There are many Christians that have this same or almost same belief. Genesis is not the science part. It is not intended to convey exactly how God...but THAT God did something. While I may believe it in a more literal sense, it's not too much 'outside the box' thinking or interpretation. Many of us Christians have no problem accepting the evolutionary claims.
Its interesting though, isn't it?
That the all knowing timeless god decided to write his/her/its book in such a way that the knowledge of the book was kept to the constraints of knowledge known to humankind at the time. When depicting absolutes, like the formation of the universe or sun or earth or life, it all just one big meaningless BS story, containing no intellectual or factual content whatsoever. Some Christians say, well although the story is total BS, it shows us that god created everything, but doesn't necessarily have any relation to the how or actual events.
The parts that Christians would no doubt say are to be taken literal are simply anecdotal stories. Stories that cannot be proven because they contain no absolutes, just mind numbingly silly stories.
The take aways from the bible are:
God created everything
God is good
God is perfect
Jesus is god's son
Jesus is god ???
His mum was a virgin :o
Jesus was a virgin ???
Jesus died as a blood sacrifice to god (himself) for our sins ::)
Worship Jesus, go to heaven, have unimaginably happy afterlife
Don't worship Jesus, go to hell, have unimaginably tortured afterlife
Everything else from the bible is open to interpretation. Just make shit up, however you see fit. This is the biblical "Truth"